Seattle’s $15 minimum wage law goes into effect on April 1, 2015. As that date approaches, restaurants across the city are making the financial decision to close shop. The Washington Policy Center writes that “closings have occurred across the city, from Grub in the upscale Queen Anne Hill neighborhood, to Little Uncle in gritty Pioneer Square, to the Boat Street Cafe on Western Avenue near the waterfront.”
Of course, restaurants close for a variety of reasons. But, according to Seattle Magazine, the “impending minimum wage hike to $15 per hour” is playing a “major factor.” That’s not surprising, considering “about 36% of restaurant earnings go to paying labor costs.” Seattle Magazine,
“Washington Restaurant Association’s Anthony Anton puts it this way: “It’s not a political problem; it’s a math problem.”
“He estimates that a common budget breakdown among sustaining Seattle restaurants so far has been the following: 36 percent of funds are devoted to labor, 30 percent to food costs and 30 percent go to everything else (all other operational costs). The remaining 4 percent has been the profit margin, and as a result, in a $700,000 restaurant, he estimates that the average restauranteur in Seattle has been making $28,000 a year.
“With the minimum wage spike, however, he says that if restaurant owners made no changes, the labor cost in quick service restaurants would rise to 42 percent and in full service restaurants to 47 percent.”
Restaurant owners, expecting to operate on thinner margins, have tried to adapt in several ways including “higher menu prices, cheaper, lower-quality ingredients, reduced opening times, and cutting work hours and firing workers,” according to The Seattle Times and Seattle Eater magazine. As the Washington Policy Center points out, when these strategies are not enough, businesses close, “workers lose their jobs and the neighborhood loses a prized amenity.”
A spokesman for the Washington Restaurant Association told the Washington Policy Center, “Every [restaurant] operator I’m talking to is in panic mode, trying to figure out what the new world will look like… Seattle is the first city in this thing and everyone’s watching, asking how is this going to change?” The Washington Policy Center,
“Seattle is rightly famous for great neighborhood restaurants. That won’t change. What will change is that fewer people will be able to afford to dine out, and as a result there will be fewer great restaurants to enjoy. People probably won’t notice when some restaurant workers lose their jobs, but as prices rise and some neighborhood businesses close, the quality of life in urban Seattle will become a little bit poorer.”
In 1998, we voters enacted I-688, which has since raised our state’s minimum wage to the highest of the fifty states. The result?
Payrolls at Washington’s restaurants and bars, portrayed as particularly vulnerable to higher wage costs, expanded by 21 percent. Poverty has trailed the U.S. level for at least seven years.
Washington Restaurant Association’s Anton was last seen here at shiftwa.org, trying to chisel wage money from teenagers:
SB 5422 would allow businesses to pay anyone under the age of 20 the federal minimum wage, which is currently $7.25, as opposed to the minimum wage in Washington State of $9.47.
High-end restaurants open and close all of the time in Seattle. Instead of talking about how the market wisely sorts out favorites, we get self-serving anecdotes and bad math from persons who always oppose minimum wages. When you’ve got years of economic data to support your claims, like I have here cited to support mine, please let us know. Until then, we here in Seattle will be checking out all of our new, local places to eat.
The local government run soup kitchen is where you’ll be dining Comrade Tensor. Then it will be back to work in your government job that your Deer Leader Inslee provides on the backs of the people. Take comfort that he will protect you from yourself.
Ah, the life of a good little brown shirt.
That’s hysterical. The Brownshirts ( Godwin’s Nazi reference ftw!) were not Socialists any more than the Democratic Republic of North Korea is Republican or Democratic. When you try to use big words, at least try to look them up so you can stay with the class.
Deer leader? Is that the head of the herd? People that balk at raising the minimum wage cry the same sad song they’ve been crying EVERY TIME the min wage gets raised. Yet I have to see any pandemic of economic collapse. The very system you espouse ( or at least think you do) mocks your ignorance. Businesses are not the final stop in the economic chain, nor is payroll/taxes/benefits et al. It is all interconnected. Decently paid employees spend money and are consumers. It is the hoarders at the top, the takers who give nothing back (ok, sure charitable gifts, mostly to religious orgs that can hide their donations due to Constitutional firewalls, and other tax-deductibles just make it a temporary loan out for these uber rich) for the most part that do the most whining. When America had a strong, made in America work force who benefitted? Where did suburbia come from? Who built those houses and roads to get there? Union thugs. Now we have outsourced 90% of our “makers” and built a web of multinational spider nests and you all flit about the web thinking you’re spiders. You’re lunch.
Someone has over dosed on the class warfare kool aid big time. Instead of bettering yourself to get a better paying job, you want the .gov to mandate that your employer pay you $15/hr to flip burgers and empty the fry basket. A lazy little turd that wants the brass ring handed to him.
Again, spouting talking points about nothing you have any clue about. Demographically, those “burger flippers” are older than high school students. Despite your romanticized bootstrap first job daydreams, most of those people in urban areas work more than one of those “burger flipping fry cooks” because they pay so little and because those are the only jobs that have been available. So while you look down on them as your HDL rises to a hopefully non fatal coronary event eating their food, think about those cooks who would like to eventually be able to run the franchise, but can’t because they can’t go to school and get a BA and become a viable candidate as their time commitment is limited.
The reason why it’s called a minimum wage is that employers would pay nothing if they could. Oh wait that’s called internships, but you have to be in college for that and sponge off family and relatives. Catch 22…
Fwiw I own my home, pay more than you do in property taxes and most likely my Fed tax $ goes to pay for your Oxycontin Rx. Thanks Obama!
Unrealistic…I’ve seen plenty of hard working, smart people who struggle to get good jobs because there’s literally not enough slots for that. There’s 400 people and 200 slots, that means 200 people get left out in one way or another, even if they are perfectly qualified.
I know that when I apply to any job I never get a call back, but my work experience is good, and my Resume is professional. I finally had to start my own business because zero income was coming in…it’s worked out far better than any job…Information Technology is a decently lucrative field if you can fix problems and develop technical
solutions for people.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/407190/Nazi-Party
Again Pithy Eponym Here, where did suburbia come from? What was the economic situation on a global scale? Where else could the American worker buy any of its goods? Who else was the USA competing with? Once you can compare and contrast the global market at that time with that of today and still come up with the same level of economic participation then I would be more incline to be persuaded with your perspective.
Post war boom. William Levitt and co. develop affordable housing for returning GI’s. American manufacturing at all time high. The automobile/Robert Moses/ Eisenhower highways est. car makers as industry blue chips. On a global scale? Post war reconstruction. You know Dresden had a lot of construction as I am sure did Nagasaki, influenced by NATO SOFA agreements/ influx of business and trade rebuilding coming from western countries.
Totally right!! *drops mic*
I’m sure someone from Eastern Washington is very well experienced in living off the government welfare provided by us liberals in Puget Sound. If only you’d just admit it explicitly…
Comrad Tensor and his party leaders provide for the people. A proud member of the communist party of King County. Taking our money that we earn in the real world and distributing it amongst the liberal members throughout the state who support his party with predetermined voters ballots cast as payment.
Taking our money that we earn in the real world and distributing it amongst the liberal members …
I didn’t know Eastern Washington had so many liberals.
Washington State is loaded with them Hamster Brain, all the Cali gang moving up here for those free benifits you keep giving away at our expence. You need to come out of your urban cave and see the rest of your prepaid democratic voters you have voting for your parties liberal policies in this state.
You’re just never going to admit that King County makes and sends money to Olympia, and pretty much every county in Eastern Washington mooches and takes money from Olympia, are you?
Come on Hamster Brain, The issue is: democrats vote for democrats, democratic leaning voters vote for democrats. Voters vote their issues. Anybody who voted for democrats, benifit from their policies. And your liberal democrat policies are Tax & Spend. Big Government control and Socialized services with subsidies for everything. 40 Years of Democratic Party control speaks to who benifits from the tax giveaways you like. I vote opposition to that every chance I get. But you already know that, don’t you Hamster Brain.
Name calling, the last stop in a limited capacity for argument. You have failed your city!
Anybody who voted for democrats, benifit from their policies.
And the voters of Eastern Washington, who vote overwhelmingly for Republicans, receive more government benefits — including straight-up welfare! — than do the liberals in King County. It’s not difficult concept, you just have to stop fighting it.
I vote opposition to that every chance I get.
But you still take the money.
Ever hold a private sector job? I bet not.
Ever hold a private sector job? I bet not.
I’ll take that bet. Just tell me how much you want to fork over, and what my guarantee of collection is.
Guaranteed, like your welfare check? Or your guaranteed .gov paycheck, even if you are worthless or get furloughed for a two week vacation during a shut down?
You’re a liberal parrot espousing liberal BS.
Facts, how do they work?
Im sorry, You are 100% wrong. Those teenagers make FAR MORE in tips than they could ever earn in wages. How do I know? I was a teenage waiter. Then a bartender… then a restaurant manager. ALL of my employees were AGAINST a minimum wage hike because they knew THREE THINGS: 1. Their hours would be cut to save on labor cost, its a huge issue in the restaurant business. Plus they would be understaffed so their workload would be too hectic 2. Their earnings would drastically shrink and now be 100% federally taxed instead of only 15-20% being taxed as we have under the tipping system. 3. The food prices would go up sharply so business would decline meaning the few small tips they still get would be smaller. You have it all wrong. Go work at a restaurant for TWO MINUTES and you would understand how wrong-headed you are on this issue. Tipping is a system that keeps prices low for diners, gives incentive for strong friendly service, and allows a typical teen with NO EXPERIENCE and NO EDUCATION to earn upwards of $40 PER HOUR just by smiling and keeping drinks filled. Really, Im not trying to fight, Im trying to make you understand a side of this you are MISSING COMPLETELY.
The next step in the liberal lack of thought in Capatolisum.
wtf is Capatolisum? The next step in the Conservative Idiocracy? Invest in Brawndo!
Idiocracy referenceXD perfect
Seriously! Is there something in the water?
Seattle will be renamed Detroit West in 8-10 years, and kshama sawant will be yelling at people as they leave town that they are capitalist pigs.
I bet it won’t take but a couple of years
Obama made sure of that!!!!
Must be Obamas fault. Really? Stop using the president as a scape goat. Come up with something that’s actually logical.
Oblamu is the reason he started this crap about wages so T.T. Take your B.S. else where you trolls are worthless!
Oh horseshit. Paying people a fair wage will only increase the amount of money people spend on things like going out to eat. You people are either misinformed or just plain greedy. Either way, a fair wage is not a liberal agenda, any more than war is a right wing agenda. rents in Seattle average $1500 a month. at 9.52 (current minimum wage) people are slaves. you can barely pay rent on that, never mind health care, or FOOD, or a car, or a bus or going out to eat, or clothes, or beer. The difference between Seattle and Detroit is that our main export is not an item only the wealthy can afford, like american made cars.
If only there weren’t numerous examples in history which tell us you are completely wrong.
Maybe cite a few, legitimate ones, not opinion articles from magazines? If only, like how I can say that no businesses closed due to the same law being enacted in Sea Tac, and area with much lower costs of living by the way.
San Francisco book stores have been closing because of a looming $15 an hour minimum wage.
Seatac can do what it;s doing because the wage earners can go to Kent or Renton or Seattle or Tacoma and buy the stuff they need for lower prices in cities that aren’t currently paying their employees as much. Wait until the whole state goes to 15 an hour. Watch the hilarity ensue. By the way, using your logic, if 15 dollars an hour is good and beneficial, why not 20? 25? 50?
Don’t work for minimum wage then. get some skills that can actually pay the bills.
You people are full of shit.
You should get a life instead of trying to make other peoples lives harder by claiming you know what is good for everyone. Where is your Humanity? Miserable people love company, and obviously you are miserable.
By the way, here are the facts on the issue.
1. FLAT RATE
Large employers who do not pay towards an employee’s medical benefits plan pay
a flat hourly minimum wage based on the following schedule:
MINIMUM WAGE
2015 (April 1) $11.00/hour
2016 (January 1) $13.00/hour
2017 (January 1) $15.00/hour
2. MEDICAL BENEFITS
Large employers who do make payments toward an employee’s medical benefits
plan pay a reduced minimum wage based on the following schedule.
MINIMUM WAGE
2015 (April 1) $11.00/hour
2016 (January 1) $12.50/hour
2017 (January 1) $13.50/hour
2018 (January 1) $15.00/hour
You are just plain stupid. You claim that we should get a life instead of making everyone’s life harder. It is you who is telling the restaurant owner’s lives harder. You are telling them how to operate their business. Gov’t should stay out of it. Gov’t knows nothing about running a business. If you have a business and want to pay your workers more. Go for it. If not, shut up. the problem is most liberals never think of the consequences as they live in a dream world. The reality is many businesses will shut down because of this… but what if it is only 1? Is it still right? Not one bit. You sir, are a complete idiot devoid of any understand of simple economics or history.
Yes he is!
Has never happen. Minimum wages go up. And employment stays the same.
Except that it has happened everytime. The cost of eating put is greater in countries with min. wages than in those without. And the higher the min., the more extreme it is.
The cost of eating is greater in Switzerland, Sweden, and Canada than in Somalia. Where would you prefer to live?
Oops…the logic train didn’t stop at your house.
Sure so then raise it to 50 dollars an hour given that employment will stay the same. See kids? This is why economics is important, so you won’t spew idiotic shit when talking about policies.
Do you have a comparison model where minimum wage was raised $5.48/hr in a matter of 4 years?
I can’t recall minimum raise anywhere being raised so sharply.
I-688 mandated a 32.7% increase over two years — Washington state’s minimum wage went from $4.90/hour in 1998 to to $5.70 in 1999 and $6.50 in 2000. Seattle’s minimum wage law requires the following increases, for businesses with more than 500 employees:
$11.00 by April 1, 2015
$13.00 by January 1, 2016
$15.00 by January 1, 2017
Based on Washington state’s current minimum wage of $9.47/hour, those are annual increases of 16.2%, 18.2%, and 15.4%, respectively. The increase from the current $9.47/hour to $15/hour is an increase of 58.4% over two years — a larger increase than the statewide increase mandated by I-688 for our entire state. However, given that Seatac’s economy has taken a $15/hour minimum wage with no damage at all, we in Seattle are confident our economy can do as well.
While I don’t doubt that people driven by ideologies instead of knowledge, common sense, and experience will believe what they want to believe, do you truly think that the market is the same as in 1999?
The increase represents about 60% of the local median wage and that in itself will affect unemployment rates as higher educated and skilled people will gravitate to a market they would not previously consider when unemployed. It is safe to say that the traditional employee in that market will be displaced for a higher grade worker. Current employees are simply not worth $15/hr. to the business and that is the basis for argument.
The Seatac example is specious. Many of the businesses in that area have adjusted by cutting benefits, free food, and retirement. Some anecdotal evidence has shown that tips are also down as consumers adjust to high prices. You probably also realize that many of the workers who gained governmental support before don’t get it now through food stamps etc. and so the overall affect on the economy through local redistribution is negative. Seatac has only implemented for a year and so you will see these businesses reduce employment through reductions in streamlining and automation as they have been overseas for years. Although they have resisted movement away from automation and streamlining for customer service reasons, you will see a definite shift if there costs increases more than 60%. To think otherwise is foolish.
Your faith in your God is misplaced, because he is ignorant, short- sighted, and mean spirited. Give people hope in their own way, yet give them no real gains and probably bigger losses. Great stuff.
… do you truly think that the market is the same as in 1999?
No. I was merely noting the increases in our state’s minimum wage haven’t had the negative effects the opponents predicted. Therefore, we have no reason to believe the negative predictions being made now.
… as higher educated and skilled people will gravitate to a market they would not previously consider when unemployed. It is safe to say that the traditional employee in that market will be displaced for a higher grade worker.
Have you evidence of this occurring anywhere? Do you really believe a higher-skilled worker will stay in a minimum-wage job when a better position becomes available?
Many of the businesses in that area have adjusted by cutting benefits, free food, and retirement. Some anecdotal evidence has shown that tips are also down as consumers adjust to high prices.
The anonymous anecdotes, reported by an opponent of raising the minimum wage, count for more than the actual hiring of real people by real businesses? Especially when those were the exact same businesses which claimed they would reduce employment?
You probably also realize that many of the workers who gained governmental support before don’t get it now through food stamps etc. and so the overall affect on the economy through local redistribution is negative.
So, getting people off welfare is a bad thing now? Really?
At least you’re admitting the real cost of low wages for the rest of us.
The Seatac example is specious.
Google’s first definition of “specious” is “superficially plausible, but actually wrong.” That describes your arguments perfectly. Come back and try again when you have actual evidence to support your claims.
Based on history, this is probably true, but the market doesn’t have the legs it once did and every cost increase affects stability.
Not just the owners’ lives but the workers’ as well. Should they be the ones to decide whether the pay is acceptable or Mr. Foo?
Government should stay out of business’ business? HA! Owners are drowning in Gov regulations. Some good, some not so good. There would be more profit if we got rid of health inspectors. How ’bout that idea?
This is some weird far-Reich site. Nothing here is believable. But looking online, I see labor at 35% and profit at 4-6% is normal. But I’d like to see that labor figure for just the workers, and not management and owners.
Restaurants are easy to regulate. If a restaurant made you sick, put a review on yelp saying the food makes you sick. Diners will read the review and eat at their own risk. Of people continue to get sick, they will continue to post negative reviews and the restaurant will stop making money. The owner will either improve the conditions or go out of business. There, regulated.
Hopefully, you are the one who gets sick and misses work for two days because of this type of “regulation”! Post your review while puking. Get serious, dude!
That -is- the labor cost for workers.
That -is- the labor cost for workers.
Owners don’t generally take wages.
Their “income” is profit and certain business expenses like a car used for that biz. Comments such as this indicate a significant lack of business acumen. Bottom line, when costs increase (regardless of from where), prices necessarily also increase. The number of people who will continue to patronize a given establishment will be reduced by the number who will find the new prices ‘unaffordable’, leaving a smaller number of customers. Fewer customers translates directly to the need for fewer employees. If the impact is large enough (small neighborhood restaurant for example), that location could easily become unprofitable and the owner rightly closes the doors. The employees have NO job and fewer opportunities to find them in your city.
Facts are merely an inconvenience to such people KB. They will never accept what their political masters refute and will not spend the time or have an open mind to the truth even if they have no basis for knowing it.
You make little sense jjdoe, Yes, we all want to get rid of health inspectors…ugh. If you have never run a business, you would have no idea how expensive it is, but that should mean you need to educate before you prevaricate.
Every liberal I cross seems to wholeheartedly believe that every business owner small or large is balling out of control playing Ducktales and swimming in money.
Jesus Christ! Duck Tales! I nearly fell off the toilet. I used to love that show.
Foo is NOT stupid! He is willfully, arrogantly ignorant. Bad policy drives out good money. People choose to live in poverty in expensive areas for intangible benefits such as surf or sunsets. Others choose to emigrate from areas suddenly unfriendly to their capital, e.g., the exodus from CA to TX, which is accelerating at this moment. Foo will attack them as capitalist bastards, but exit they will whether Foo likes it or not. McDonalds robot will still serve Foo when all the wonderful, quirky neighborhood restaurants are gone.
Have you ever signed the front of a pay check?? No! At $15.00 an hour the employer is really paying $22.00 an hour because at that pay increases so does the payroll taxes L&I/B&O, Medicaid, SSAN taxes etc… That is business101. The margin of profit is gone. One quick question. Why do you think people take the chance and open a business? To make money! What’s the use. You asshats think the world owes you and you don’t give a shit about anyone except yourself! I thinks that’s called Narcissism!
Maybe if people can’t pay those who make them money a living wage, they shouldn’t go into business???? Nobody owes the business owner anything either, do they? At least, that seems the logic in play here.
Wow, there’s absolutely no logic in what you posted except maybe to yourself and anyone else that isn’t capable of reasoning beyond what they feel is right. Its not about the owners ability to pay the workers a living wage but the profitability of the business at these new wages. I don’t even know what assumptions your making with your post but no matter what they are they’re beyond naive. If the business isn’t profitable (meaning the owner can’t make a living doing it) then it either closes or doesn’t get off the ground. Assuming he’s not a millionaire philanthropist opening a restaurant for shits and giggles, he needs to draw a salary to compensate for his investment and that will eventually reward his efforts and sacrifice.
What you end up doing is discouraging small businesses from opening and running ones with tight profit margins (meaning the big bad greedy owners aren’t making much of a living to begin with) out of business. The businesses that are left are forced to raise their prices to compensate for the additional labor costs, thus nullifying your “living wage” and bringing us back to this place yet again in the not too distant future. Wow….just wow.
Since when are business guaranteed a profit to stay in business? You don’t care if a worker can pay his bills. I don’t care if a business can’t pay their bills. If 1,000 restaurants go out of business then the other 29,000 make more profit. That’s called Capitalism You right wing pyschos need to stop pretending you’re in favor of Capitalism. You don’t even know what Capitalism is.
This is the stupidest thing I have ever read in my entire life.
I am totally speechless.
No, it is not Capitalism when the State causes artificial expenses in order to redistribute wealth from the bourgeois to the proletarians.
Businesses that are guaranteed to lose money by such a socialist scheme, are guaranteed to go out of business.
you #ExtremistLeftWingNuts need to stop acting like you care about people because you only care about ‘feelings’ or ‘does it feel good’ without regard to the consequences. this is prima facie evidence.
newsflash binky! business owners go into business to provide a needed product or service AND to provide for their families. anything else is ancillary.
Well… GM ring a bell? I guess you have to be “too big to fail”. Your local eatery does not qualify. Our next car is probably going to be a Ford.
Are there 30,000 restaurants in Seattle? Far out. So, with about 700,000 residents, and 30,000 restaurants, there are 23.3 people supporting, and / or employed by, each restaurant. What’s that about Capitalism that you were going to teach us?
Sheesh. Another stupid, f*cking idiot. Seems the Northwest is simply crawling with these ill-educated wastes of oxygen. No worries though, as soon as you reach Detroit’s status, you mush-heads can all commiserate together in your beloved Utopia that you created with idiotic laws.
F*cking idiots.
Seattle used to be a pretty nice place…oh well.
wow – so the government forcing people of out business is capitalism? This country is doomed.
Dusty is just another ignorant idiot who has invested too much in identifying with a dead philosophy. Religiously ideological people don’t let facts and logic stand in the way of a childish rant.
There is no guarantee any business will make money. That includes other restaurants when some go out of business. With that line of thinking carriage businesses that remain in business would be laughing all the way to the bank after the other carriage businesses went out of business. Market forces change and just because a certain amount of money was spent on an item last month does not mean the same amount of money will be spent on that item this month.
I’ll make sure to save this comment as it shows just how much demofash are against small businesses and workers and favor corporate interests indirectly.
Ah the childish name calling with a specious argument thrown in for good measure. I find it especially funny that you mention capitalism as a hammer when you support little about its nature. Capitalism doesn’t mean what you think it does….
If profitability relies on the criteria of “can you make a living,” then that goes to show that this minimum wage is perfectly fine. Most chain restaurant owners rake in 100s of thousands of dollars. We see owners and CEOs raking in millions yet shouting “Wah wah I cant pay my employees anymore without cutting jobs and hours or we wont be profitable.” Thing is, they are most likely just bluffing. They could compensate costs with perhaps taking less off the top for themselves? Maybe people really only need 1 car or 1 house… I don’t know, but if “can I make a living” is the question by which we’re judging here, we should regulate ceo pay so they can “Make a living.” CEOs/owners shouldnt make over 100 grand, and if they do, that extra money on the top could be reused and invested in the business or the wages of the workers…
Maybe sports players shouldnt make over a 100 grand too right??
They can make how ever much they want. The NFL is 501 c 6 non-profit organization. No tax for them.
The NFL is 501 C, but not the teams or the players.
Tired….
All pro sports players should make no more than the cost of what they need, according to the assessment of PopulistPolly. That will make pro games affordable for the folks making a Living Wage. Also, stadium hot dogs cost nearly as much as the new Seattle minimum wage. This travesty MUST be regulated! No sports food item should cost more than 20% of minimum wage. Heck, I think getting the price of a hot dog down to $3 would be dandy. I hope that comes up as an issue in the next election.
Because now attending a sporting event and eating the food is a right? Gawd are you messed up. Next time you are out making a purchase, divide what you have in half and give it to someone less fortunate nearby….otherwise you are a greedy pig.
Tammy, my dear… Glad we are on the same page. I would like cheaper hot dogs at the games, though. :o)
hell yes. them and actors/actresses get WAYYYYY TOO MUCH for what they do
You are a loser hating the world because you have no skills. Don’t they have assisted suicide there also, I think you should do that and make your miserable life disapear
Yeah, I’m a loser with 32 years of Tattooing, and running my own business. I make $75 an hour IN CASH. I also work 21 days in a row, 3x per year and make a comfortable $10,000 and change every 3 months, IN CASH…. I happen to have 2 very successful businesses, and MY choice is to not have employees. So, why don’t YOU go kill yourself.
Then don’t go to movies….the only reason that a very few make good money is that their personal value affects revenue. No doubt producers would hire people like some of the commenters here at minimum wage instead if personal value did not exist.
What a clueless Jackass! Obvious this person has never ran a business there in lies the problem. The thousands of dollars that flow thru a business is not what a small business owner gets to keep, it is what he or she uses to pay his or her bills to stay in business, and oh yes the wages of of the one who wrote the article above. And oh yes if there is anything left, then maybe the small business owner will get paid!
I challenge the own who wrote this above article to start a small business and see how many millions of dollars you can stash away every month! After about one year see if you are rolling in doe or making a living!
wow what a dumbass reply. the topic is ‘locally owned restaurants’, not chain franchisees. do try and stay on topic. thank you.
(and i don’t know any franchise owner that makes 100s of thousands unless they have 12-15 stores minimum.)
There are very few franchise restaurants in Seattle. Or Walmarts……any chains with the exception of Seattle’s pride, coffee.
Then its important to give concrete examples that are not anecdotal and based on something other than the wishful thinking of an ideologue.
Lmao. Yeah, or they could be telling the truth. But you the man in calling their “bluff” at the risk of hundreds of others losing their jobs, but not yours.
Translation: bla bla bla ceos make too much money! Bla bla bla lets put a maximum wage!
Oh, populistpolly of course, with that name one would expect you to not have any knowledge of econ
Do you????? With you writing a bunch of garbage I highly doubt it!
yeah im the one blabbering about bullshit not that typical msnbc watcher polly who just spews talking points based on “muh feels”
Mary, please amuse us with your knowledge as argument instead of emotional reactions.
How about limiting what a Hollywood actor or actress can make to 100K per movie. That will never be considered.
The old argument that you should decide what other folks need is steeped in Socialist and Communist doctrine. As far as I can tell the article focuses on the restaurant industry which is very competitive and operates at a thin margin. Your example is focused on large corporations, but the Seattle restaurant that is facing an operational cost increase is competing with other sources of meals, whether customers decide to stay home, go to a cheaper national chain, or drive outside of Seattle to a joint that offers a similar dining experience but doesn’t cost as much. This is business in the USA, and YOU don’t get to decide what the business owner, or anybody else, needs. What decides is the MARKET.
If you think living off minimum wage is so easy and fair, then you go live off of it.
You are not suppose to live off of minimum wage. Do excellent work, increase your skills, get a raise or seek better employment.
Next time you go to work, try working.
Hoffa,
I made a choice many years ago that I didn’t want to live off minimum wage, so I went to college (which resulted in me working during school and taking out student loans, which I paid back), got a degree in a field that prepared me for the working world. I worked very hard to get where I am now. I still work at least 10 hrs per day and I work from home on most weekends. But I know that is what is needed to do my job. If I don’t want to do that, I know I can go get a job that will be less time intensive, but I will be paid less. See, it’s about the choices I am prepared to make.
If you don’t like where you are in life, YOU can change that. If you want to get paid more money, YOU can choose to improve yourself. If your employer is not paying you what you feel you are worth, go find another job! With the mentality of many who are posting on here, surely there are businesses who are looking for people who willing to work hard for an honest wage, because it appears that most of you are not.
My brief experience in the “restaurant business” occurred when I was in college and did little for me but to confirm I had no interest in remaining there. Most of the people I met with significant history in the business had little skill, education, or work ethic, and they spent much of their time complaining about the owners, their pay, and cheap customers. My story is anecdotal, but I find it hard to believe it is not indicative of most people in retail and supported by my interaction with them over the years.
Polly: One invalid postulation leads you down a rabbit hole from which you cannot escape. Just as the saying goes “a rising tide lifts all ships”, an artificial increase in the ‘minimum wage’ of an economy does have many unintended consequences, including inflation. And what is inflation, the ever-increasing COST for good and services. If you aren’t old enough to remember the impact of inflation in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s, check out the affects of the economic policies of the Carter administration (which took several years of counter-egalitarian policies to repair). In those days, mortgages were often over 15% interest rates. Creating a ‘minimum wage’ is also a pall on young, inexperienced workers. Have you never heard a young person who is seeking a job complain they can’t get that first job because every interview includes a ‘requirement’ of experience? It would do many on this forum good to take a business owner to lunch and genuinely ask questions about these matters. But that may take a mind open to an alternative point of view. THAT is the big struggle.
Raising the minimum wage won’t cause inflation by itself. The costs to employers who keep those workers will rise, and they may pass some of that cost onto customers, but to the extent that customers keep buying those things at a higher price, they will have less money for other things, decreasing the demand for those other things, causing the prices of those other things to drop.
It is more likely that with tight margins, the owners will pass most of the costs on and pare down the number of workers to maintain their margins. Owners constantly analyze whether their business model is sustainable and many will likely decide that it is not due to the inability to maintain service, value, and financial return. Allowing prices to rise is inflationary in the restaurant market at least and will affect the ability of the consumer to buy that product.
Your assumption on price drops is generally unsupportable in a modern market. Your premise might be true in high margin markets, but most consumer markets are not. Retailers are buying from the least expensive sources and are forced by competition to battle based on price point. There is no doubt additionally that many of these markets would also be affected by a rise in labor cost and would be unable to support current price structures in the same fashion. In the end, it is highly likely that general inflation will work through the system and drive all prices higher. Companies that recruit to the State will have to offer higher wages to support competitive lifestyles and we will be back in roughly the same position due to a reduction in overall spending power.
There is nothing that supports a minimum wage as the answer to the unskilled. In the end the same workers will occupy the same rung on the economic ladder regardless.
The price drop you propose will happen will only happen if the cost still allows a profit. Without profit, the company in your illustration will not stay in business either. You really don’t get it do you.
I said “other things:. follow your line of thought away from “the company” and out into the world of “other things”.
Explain where or to whom money spent on ‘other things’ would go unless it was to the company or person in business who provides it?
i keep using plural. You keep using singular..
I keep talking plural. You keep talking singular. And money doesn’t just go somewhere. It might stay put and go nowhere, and if it goes somewhere it has to come from somewhere. It can’t be spent twice. .
She admits redistribution of wealth is the answer this conceding her belief in Marxism. It scares me such ignorance has the power of a vote.
In Obama’s and Elizabeth Warren’s immortal words “At some point, you’ve made enough money…” And who gets to decide how much that is? People like Obama, who surely won’t be stinting on golf vacations and private jets when he finally leaves office, and Warren, whose net worth is $8.5 million and who owns two houses? You can be sure that whatever number they come up with, it won’t apply to people like them. Economics may be called the dismal science, but life itself will be pretty dismal for all of us if your brand of willful economic ignorance destroys the free markets that have made the US the wealthiest nation in history.
Since they’ve invested their money and take all the risk it’s really none of your business. You can choose to spend your money elsewhere.
How do you know that “Most chain restaurant owners rake in 100s of thousands of dollars.”? And even if they do, they work incredibly long hours. Also, who are you to decide that CEOs/owners shouldn’t make over 100 grand? Wow, reading the some of the posts on here prove that the rise of socialism is far worse than anyone thought and the future of this country is dim.
So you believe in corporatism? Because the point of all of this $15/hr and increase health coverage is that ONLY CORPORATIONS CAN AFFORD IT! Small businesses CAN’T. That is the point! Do you want to be a slave drone to totalitarian corporatism?
I would suggest that mandated minimum wages have contributed greatly to the rise in corporate chains and the reduction of sustainable small business in many retail sectors.
I’d like to suggest be become a chain restaurant owner. I understand it is an easy way to make 100s of thousands of dollars. If you think it would be wise, you could even take anything over a 100k and reinvest it in the business or pay hirer wages. Maybe you are just making numbers up that sound good for what you are trying to say.
Well, in my business if I am going to be restricted to a certain amount of income no matter how much I make, then I will cut back to my most profitable accounts and get rid of all my employees. Why put yourself out and endure aggravation and risk if you won’t obtain any additional reward for your efforts. I cannot believe morons like yourself are allowed to vote. You are completely lacking in both common sense and logic.
Popuislpolly please go and find a communist country to live in, you will fit it very well there. A business owner is entitled to to the money they receive. They risk their money in order to make more, If you are saying that they should make no more than an employee then you will find very few places to work because no one will risk their own money just to make a wage that they pay their employees. What all you fair wage people fail to realize is it is up to the employee to make themselves worth more to an employer in order to earn more. No one in the world owes you anything, not food, not water, not money, not healthcare – you are owed nothing by anyone. It is up to you to make yourself worth something to someone else so they will paying you money for your skills. If you have no skills then be prepared for a very hard short life, even in communist countries you live a very hard life and they provide the bare minimum required for you to live on, no cars, no vacations, little food, very small place to live. why, because even a communist government realizes the value of money and refuses to give it to the masses that are doing nothing to earn it.
The fact that you say “most likely” means you have no basis for your argument and rely on the statements of others which synch with your ideology. Buying into populist illogical nonsense has its shortcomings. Your lack of knowledge of business structure and costs are clear, but your entitlement mentality is fully vested. CEOs are rarely substantive owners in large companies. They are hired to affect the success of a company which typically counts their revenues in the billions. Paying someone millions to keep the company relatively strong and ensuring the earning opportunities for hundreds of thousands of employees is both logical and oozes common sense for everyone. Class envy and misplaced emotional ideology does not make sense to the long term health of a business or its employees, regardless what the self-absorbed political masters and their sheep purport to be true.
Funny how “raking in” to some means “earning it” to others. You make the comment about “owners” limiting their income and lifestyle based on a subjective analysis of their needs while ignoring the hypocrisy of calling them owners. In your scenario they own nothing, but are merely keepers at the whims of the unknowledgeable. Do you understand what risk/reward means, or is the answer to life’s issues merely to have other people solve them for you? These “owners” provide a vehicle for opportunity, take all the risks, have probably tried and failed numerous times, know what a business model is, and yet to you they are merely vessels for your ideological religion.
What the bleep is a living wage? Another liberal code word that means absolutely nothing. Please define living wage!!!!!
COL cost of living= living wage.
Since COL is different everywhere, there shouldn’t be a federal minimum wage then right? Or it should be set at the lowest COL levels
Exactly. That’s what most people don’t get. $15/hour in many places makes you among the highest paid. And working at McDonald’s should not make you wealthy. It’s just pure ignorance of economics.
as is trickle down Reganomics
Actually no it is not tickle down, this is an attempt to trickle up which will fail in a glorious fashion.
And the people with 15/hr jobs aren’t automatically getting boosted to $25/hr so now they’re on par with McDonald’s burger flippers.
Cost of Living is a statistic. Living wage is a totally subjective idea. Please do not state anything further about business until you get an education in business or you run one.
dumb as hell. cost of living based on what? I need ribeye’s and caddy’s. my COL is $81,000. I don’t make that. Should i be complaining to my government?
Indeed. Now flip your equation: living wage = cost of living. Or multiply the wage by two, and notice that you must also multiply the other by two. That’s the thing about an equality. If you increase one, then the other must also increase. Applied here, if you increase the minimum wage, the cost of living will increase proportionately. That is the fundamental reason imposed wage increases (as distinct from market-driven ones) do not work.
You may as well claim that if you’re running out of gas, the best thing to do is drive faster to reach the next gas station sooner.
Living wage…subjective and based on specious premises.
It’s a wage that totally differs not only on where you live but how you live. It’s totally subjective and thus garbage.
Exactly Wayne…Thank you!
A living wage is one where you can afford the average rent payment, required utilities including phone and internet ( one cannot get a job without a phone, and cannot appky for jobs without internet as companies do not even take apps on paper anynore), mandatory health care insurance, car insurance, child care, food, etc.
If you think the government can “give” people a living wage by passing a law, why don’t you push for a “luxury wage” by passing a better law?
Exactly, why not $100 an hour for a no talent dish washer?
No, make that $1000 an hour so they can all drive a Mercedes and live in a mansion.
Doesn’t everyone deserve a free education, universal healthcare and a living wage of 15/hour or more, and so on?
Doesn’t money just grow on trees?
They will damage or destroy the restaurant industry, but this socialist nonsense tends to self-correct when hard economic realities exert themselves.
so there should not be anymore jobs for people just starting in the work place or elevated wages for elevated amount of skills? Why don’t we make living wage $100k/ year so everyone can own a really nice house and new cars every 2 years?
Go to the library and use their computer
None of that is the responsibility of the employer.
In what city, town, borough?
A living wage is one that allows a leftist to only work twenty hours a week.
And have a new car, Xbox, a big TV, an iPhone with unlimited data, and money to buy weed.
20 whole hours! Man, what a drag!
Nobody is forcing you to eat at “x” place or even work at “x” place. Why are people who advocate minimum wage such fascists just let people VOLUNTARILY keyword “voluntarily” negotiate a wage amongst each other. You either accept it or you go work somewhere else.
Exactly, here’s a great video on that point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j01L69eXdI
Because that would be too hard and buck against their poor work ethic and entitlement mentality.
Ummm….That’s precisely what the article is discusses. They can’t afford to pay them so they’re going to close shop.
Well apparently that decision is being made for them.
“Business” under these conditions is no longer self-sustaining, so they just as easily go out of business. The smart ones do it based upon the new artificially imposed costs dynamic, and shut down preemptively before they lose their nest egg trying to swim upstream.
Nobody does owe the business owner anything, that is true. That is why they pay people. An exchange of value for value. If a business owner thinks your job is worth minimum wage to him/her, then it is up to you to show him/her different if you want more. You don’t owe it to the owner, you owe it to yourself if you want to make more money.
Bull! You have no idea what your talking about. Good businesses don’t make by either being poorly run or by government over regulations. If you sell your products and don’t have a huge profit margin you either have to increase your volume or cut your over head. Fast food, especially a franchise has no control how much you charge. Going from $9 /hr to $15/hr is a death sentence.
And if you ever studied business or owned a business or ran a business you would know better than to make such a naive statement.
None of them do. It is easier to read childish ideological blogs that cater to their insecurities than to truly understand the issue.
“Living wage” is the biggest load of horse shit. A single 18 year old living with his parent is going to have a totally different living wage than a single mother with 4 children.
If you’re brain dead enough to make human beings you can’t afford to keep alive, I can’t simply destroy my business because of the mistakes you made in life.
One thing I guarantee to all these armchair economists who think a living wage is anything but a pipe dream. Give one of these employees such a raise and see how little it changes their reality.
If a person that volunteers to be an employee of a business owns that business nothing then the business owes them nothing in return.
Are you that ignorant?
what happens when there are no businesses with entry level jobs for people to learn their first labor skills?
I started at McDonalds, $3.35 an hour. I learned how to work. I got raises and made more $. Eventually I sought more education and better employment. That is how the system is suppose to work.
So the fact that my servers and bartenders make 60k a year in tips I should pay them a 65 percent 8n crease on minumum wage is bull garbage unskilled employees do not deserve to be handed skilled labor wages. Since when has minumum wage paid for a lovely hood never work 2 jobs I did the majority of my life
Right and just wait and see how many businesses move out of Seattle or close altogether. Seattle will see a drop in economic activity and a corresponding drop in tax revenue.
Nobody owes anybody anything…that’s the problem, we owe and own people…it would be better to just work together as a team, if it’s not right, leave the team, if it’s not right now, but it’s right later, rejoin the team, if you create something successful that the team helped build, share the wealth. We need to get away from our overly strict business/dollar based mindset.
Really business is simple, it’s about providing a service when there is demand for that service and nobody is providing it, or maybe you can provide the service better. If you do that, the money will follow…I use a very classic strategy.
Even if my business only made $1 at the end of the year, after everybody paid me, and I paid everybody and all my bills…that’s still a success because you’ve generated an engine that goes into the net plus. Of course I want to make more than that, but I only see the business side as a way of covering my costs and then the extra is put toward higher goals (investment). For example I want to make a videogame, that’s what I’m passionate about…but it might be a money pit…I don’t know, but I want to do it. So I use my business fixing glitchy software as a way to fund my endeavor of making a game.
Too many businesses are all about the money, and the result is that they lose their edge because they don’t experiment or innovate, they just get more money from the one niche they’ve been able to exploit.
I’ve only been able to survive by being a generalist, whatever the task, we’ll at least try…and that gets us pretty far.
I’ve worked at lots of jobs, corporate too… I aim to be the anti-corporation. We make money we generate wealth, but we use it a lot differently than corporations. Let’s do something cool and futuristic.
And the business doesn’t owe anyone anything either, except what is voluntarily agreed upon. Goes both ways.
People who work for nothing buy nothing. Businesses have no customers and go out of business anyway.
Yep, totally true. I am a small business owner, I pay well above minimum…It’s totally possible! Not sure how anybody was able to start a business with such a defeatist attitude.
And what if some government agency decided you still weren’t paying enough. So now they want you to pay $7.50/hr more for each worker. Still think that’s a good deal? And what you deem “well above minimum” is totally subjective. It also depends on what type of business you run. How much do you pay per hour? How many employees do you have? Are they each paid that wage? For how long do they make that wage? Do you give raises? How much? How often? Do you provide healthcare? Do you provide paid days off for holidays? Do you have full time or part time workers or a combination? Do you provide full pay for sick days? Do you provide sick days? How many sick days? What is the focus of your business? Where is your business located? What is the tax rate for your business? What is it for your employees? What is the poverty rate in your area? What is the average wage in your area? Are you competitive with other similar businesses? Is your business high end? Is your business low end? There are a thousand questions you need to answer in order to set your employee wages. The fact that you have made only 1 statement about wages, which showed no thought of any of the questions a knowledgeable owner would ask themself in determining wages is a clue as to your skill in operating a business. And since your statement on the wages you pay is completely subjective, it could be $0.75/hr more than minimum wage and still be considered a valid statement, but completely misleading at the same time.
I don’t have any employees. I do all contract labor. So I’m a freelancer, teaching people how to be freelancers, they are independent, we just work together…so there is not the burden actually of an hourly wage, I don’t own them, we just both work together and we both benefit. An employee/employer relationship is kind of like slavery-lite in my eyes.
When it’s contract labor we can form custom terms for any arrangement basically. Seems like the way to go for me…But I am not cheap and I pay well for what I ask.
You cannot equate what you do to running a restaurant. Your examples do not apply. Your argument is specious.
They apply in some respects, not all. Just as another business owner. Sure it’s a different industry but many of the same principles still apply. You might even have two different restaurant owners who disagree too.
Nonsense…thanks for playing.
I fear for the future of our country. People like you are in the majority..knee jerk emotional reactions. No goals, no ideas, just judgement. Screw that. Thanks for playing.
I was thinking the same thing about you. How ironic.
Not sure how I’ve done that, I’ve been having a decent and honest discussion this whole time and you’re just swinging out insults.
Insults…must have missed that part. You aren’t listening to anyone while continuing the implication that your personal example is germane to the discussion…it isn’t.
You may pay those you work with more, but place the liabilities covered by the average business back on the employee. Although they certainly feel thankful for not being a “slave (pretty insensitive and inaccurate metaphor BTW),” they don’t gain much else from what you have stated. I suspect that tax laws will prevent workers from applying your example to most workplaces given the requirements placed on the worker by the employer.
Interesting: you pay above minimum wage, but you lay the entire tax burden on the contractor, who, after taxes will now likely be making much less than a minimum wage employee? You also don’t pay for their insurance, unemployment, etc. It also means that you don’t need to pay them when there’s no work, unlike a regular employer.
There’s a reason contractors get paid more per hour than an employee. Employees do not endure the “feast or famine” cycle a contractor does. Perhaps you should compare the net yearly income of your contractors with that of a minimum wage employee before you start claiming the high road. If your contractors still make more, then it’s clear they have skills that exceed that of the minimum wage employee. Your point is invalid.
Why should I have to pay for their insurance? They are independent, I don’t own them, they aren’t my slave. They take in income, and pay taxes on their income, just like I take in my income and pay taxes on mine.
I want universal healthcare, so that businesses are freed up from having to pay for their worker’s healthcare and hence can pay them more.
For the people who work with me, often they will work somewhere else too and this is kind of like a side job. They make as much as a minimum wage, full time worker, but they work 1-3 days a week. Also they want to learn IT when they don’t know it so they learn it with on the job training…nobody else is even willing to do that at all…everybody that worked with me ended up thanking me because my model leaves them more freedom in their life, they can do their own thing and make enough to at least get by…when more activity comes in their pay will go up.
I’m not taking the high road, just explaining a model that I am using that works for the level it’s at, I need more activity for sure, but then it all goes up.
The raw income is one factor, but while a minimum wage employee has to slave away for 40-50 hours a week doing something that’s not fulfilling, this is like an apprenticeship, part time, that pays as much as if you were working full time at a low paying job. It’s actually a good deal, it’s just not conventional.
I go through the feast and famine cycle, sometimes I need just myself to get everything done, and sometimes I need 3-4 people. If I have employees then I would have gone out of business by now because business comes in large bursts. Every single year we make more money though and customer and worker satisfaction is through the roof. Slow and steady wins the race.
Also because I’ve helped people learn the field, they are now getting contract jobs doing things outside of my business, so basically I’m teaching people how to be self-employed through IT…So glad it’s working.
http://s31tech.org
“Why should I have to pay for their insurance? They are independent, I don’t own them, they aren’t my slave. They take in income, and pay taxes on their income, just like I take in my income and pay taxes on mine.
I want universal healthcare, so that businesses are freed up from having to pay for their worker’s healthcare and hence can pay them more.”
Interesting. So basically you’re subscribing to the “I got mine, Jack” theory that libertarians are always accused of. I really enjoy how you ask “Why should I have to pay for their insurance”, and immediately follow that with “I want universal healthcare”. So… where do you suppose the money for universal healthcare comes from?
Why do you think it makes sense for employers to be required to pay minimum wage, but not pay for healthcare?
Also, are you just trolling? If you are, well done, but you’re starting to show your hand.
No I am not like Libertarians at all. I want a nationalized healthcare system so that your boss doesn’t have any say in your birth control, and so that somebody who has nothing to do with your health is responsible for managing it.
Businesses can be more competitive, and regular people can have better healthcare outcomes…also if you lose your job or you change jobs, you don’t lose your ability to get medical care.
I work in the medical industry, I have for 8 years. Pretty much most nurses, staff, and doctors want a single payer system, it makes things far less complicated, healthcare costs less for people, and outcomes are better. Seems logical to me.
I want everybody to have theirs. I’d like to have a guaranteed personal income program, where we completely eliminate the cap on social security, and everybody gets social security…and if you work, you’d just be getting 2000 a month extra on top. Imagine how much that would change our economy.
The money for universal healthcare comes from those who have the most ability to pay. So billionaires pay the most, the poor don’t pay anything, and the middle class pays less than they pay now.
Birth control? Insurance is for unplanned events. Birth control is very much planned and predictable. Birth control shouldn’t be covered by any insurance , except there is no real health insurance for sale in the US. It is all “Make someone else pay”.
No one’s boss has anything to say about birth control. Anyone can employ any method desired. Offering coverage for “only” 16 methods of BC instead of 20 does not prevent anyone from choosing from those methods not offered. The real question is who pays for it?
The employer has no moral obligation to provide benefits on demand. Employers choose the benefits they believe are best for their own interests as well as their employees.
You think the federal government won’t interfere with your life and health under nationalized health care? Government-provided health care is hardly the sterling benchmark you portray it as. Ask any veteran.
Where do you think the money to pay for everyone’s guaranteed personal income will come from? Government has no money of its own. It’s all seized wealth. I have no interest or desire in assuming the expense of contributing to the support of anyone who doesn’t work, unless that person is close to me.
Creating perverse incentives like “free” health care for the poor will only ensure that they remain poor. But then, a permanent underclass is fodder for the statists.
Hobby Lobby had something to say about Birth Control, and they won with the Supreme Court…Because Hobby Lobby as a for profit company has firmly held religious beliefs, they are able to deny birth control to their employees which was already covered under their healthcare plan. Pretty dumb.
A couple of pills are pretty damn cheap. Why the hell do we keep itemizing everything that exists in this world and saying “how are we going to pay for it?”. It’s like “we had napkins at this event, how are we going to pay for it?” or “I got us 3 cans of Dr. Pepper, how are we going to pay for it?”
It’s all stuff that’s super cheap that somehow we can’t pay for…but 2 massive decade long wars with trillions of dollars down the tube, no problem.
Thank you! Employers shouldn’t even be involved in an employee’s health care. It’s an odd concept. Just pay your workers (employees or contractors) enough to choose their own medical plans, and it sounds like you’re doing just that.
As for the restaurants closing because of minimum wage “hiking” to $15 an hour… You aren’t successful, increase your food prices. Figure out a way to pay your workers a living wage, or you really shouldn’t be in business. With all the small minded people who think “What will change is that fewer people will be able to afford to dine out, and as a result there will be fewer great restaurants to enjoy”. Think big picture! If people are paid well, then YES they will be able to afford to eat out. Increased minimum wage is good for the economy. How is that a hard to understand?
But it’s okay if the government is involved? Health insurance as an employment benefit is a direct result of government interference in the market. Post-WWII wage and price freezes prevented employers from paying higher wages, so health insurance was offered instead. The rest is history.
It also means they pay a higher rate as self-employment tax than an employee, who pays only half of FICA.
Employer/employee is like slavery? Are you serious? You’re a freakin nut. I’m curious how you would define our current relationship with an oppressive, indebted, omnipresent government?
“I don’t have any employees. I do all contract labor;” With those 2 statements you demonstrate you don’t understand that is apples vs oranges to the discussion.
I do understand it’s different, but I only set up my model this way because it’s simpler and I can actually focus on doing the job. If I had millions coming in my model would be different, all I can say is the people that work for me are happy, the customers are happy, and we all make money.
We have to be more flexible in an economic environment that’s this unstable.
I totally understand my situation is different. But it’s not exactly apples to oranges. It’s like unless my business is literally the same business as the one in the article, I have nothing worthwhile to say right? It all doesn’t matter because my business is different…
But what about you? Do you own a business? Why is what you’re saying more valid than somebody that actually runs a business? It’s good that we have different models.
Your business model works for you and your offering. It is not typical.
You easily prescribe for others that which you do not provide and are not subject to. Is that to assuage your conscience?
Your name wouldn’t happen to be Pat McCormick, would it? Contract labor out of Tampico?
Okay, so you use a temp service. He thinks because he contracts out at 12 to 14 per/ hr ,when they get paid 8 that it’s fair and above average. You are one cool dude! They have less workers rights than anyone on minimum wage.
I use a temp service? No I don’t…I teach people directly who want to learn the field of Information Technology, they come to me, they say “do you have a job?”. I say “No I don’t have a full time job for you, but I am willing to teach you and pay you for stuff that comes in, so you can learn it”.
I pay them directly from me, I don’t call up Kelly services or some crap.
I pay about $1500 a month for 2 days a week worth of work. If they were working full time, they would be making about $9/hr.
Since I don’t need full time, and I don’t want to subject them to 40 hours a week under my thumb, they end up making about $50-65/hr based on the amount of time they work. But we are super efficient and get things done quickly, they are VERY MOTIVATED at that rate. Here’s my site:
http://s31tech.org
you better hope they don’t get hurt at you place they can sue you.your not as bright as you think and all you are doing I trying to get more sucker to call you for work cheap bastard
Not sure where all this hostility is coming from. I’m in my mid 20’s in the first 5 years of my business, making it work how I can. It’s like I have to be totally successful and rich to start, but if I start small and move up from there, then suddenly I’m a cheap bastard? Why would I overextend myself and hire people for 40 hours a week when I couldn’t pay them? Where’s this thing called flexibility out there?
Congratulations. You’ve found a business model that works for you and your offering. It is not typical. I have no quarrel with it, per se. But a few more years of business growth and experience, and you may find that this model no longer serves, or that some new regulation comes along that renders your business model illegal or inadequate. You don’t know what you don’t know, and you don’t know that you don’t know it.
For sure, I try to know as much as I can but ultimately if I were to worry about every little threat then I’d never have started in the first place. I’ll do things that make sense and consequences be dammed. I haven’t run into any issues so far…but of course that could change at any moment.
No wonder our economy is soooo sluggish, everybody is too afraid to do anything because of liability. Nobody tries anything because there’s too many rules…I just choose not to worry about it. I don’t have any assets so nothing can really be taken away…I’ve been to court a few times before, it always works out as long as you study the law and find evidence to indicate you didn’t break it. I don’t agree with the laws but they are a reality and I follow them.
Linda, not to be a jerk, but you shouldn’t accuse someone of not being “bright” when your grammar makes you sound like a juggalo.
Under your thumb? I thought it was under your tutelage?
So, 2 days a week at $1,500/month is $187.50/week plus the entire tax burden and no benefits. Nine bucks an hour for 40 hours yields $360/week, employer-shared tax burden, and maybe benefits like paid time off, paid holidays, insurance, etc. Either way, it’s entirely voluntary between the parties. No coercion.
I would add that contract houses are not crap. I work in a volatile industry that often has layoffs, and I have found contract houses to be invaluable — I have always found permanent work in my chosen field when I’ve aligned with a contract house.
It’s not employment, they do other things for work too, it’s extra money, a booster. That’s why they aren’t employees. They all know what they are getting into and they like it just fine.
There is no such thing as worker’s rights. What you’d call worker’s rights is stuff that the government forces other people to give to workers. It sounds fair when they are called rights.
If you are using temporary contract labor it’s not an apples to apples comparison. If you are employing people as “independent contractors” you are very likely violating state and federal wage laws to skirt paying the employer portion of the tax burden. Independent contractors have very strict tests to meet and most do not.
so true if they don’t pay their people you contract the job out to don’t carry insurance you better have it if they don’t pay workman comp you get to pay it, theirs all kind of laws I bet you are breaking the Mexicans in Oregon want $35.00 house to do yard woek fk them.
Linda, you’re a crazy person. After reading comments you’ve left for others I hope you’re just a troll. Quit being a racist b!tch and learn to form sentences.
You are not an employer than, so STFU you asssshole. You pay no SS taxes, SSI taxes, disability taxes, health insurance, ect that employers have to pay. In fact, you are worse, by only using independents you are forcing those costs on them, and they have to pay the taxes twice – as an employee and employer. You are a hypocrite and a flea living off others.
Actually I do pay all that…it’s called the self-employment tax…I have to pay the whole thing instead of my employer covering half of mine.
Every year I have to pay lots of taxes, I don’t get a refund at all because I pay full SS taxes, not half.
Those costs are on me too. It’s basically a choice between hire people as contract labor and help them out with an extra 1500 or so each month, or they just totally have zero dollars coming in and I’m working 80 hours a week, that doesn’t make any sense to me…but I guess unless I can totally feed, house, and clothe them that I’m a total piece of shit for even sharing the extra work I have coming in.
I think the irs needsto visit you now you went from 2 days to 1 or 2 I have a friend who work for them
Why? I pay my taxes and follow all rules. IRS can audit me if they want, it all lines up.
Linda, how did you even get that out of his comment? Nice IRS threat. I’m sure your IRS friend will want to waste their time tracking down a person by their pen name, so they in turn can tell you he isn’t doing anything wrong. I can’t even make out half of your comments, by the way. I think your IRS friend needs to visit YOU so they can educate you a bit.
shouldn’t the government be setting your terms for you since that is what you advocate for?
I imagine having a different government that works better than the government we have…I’m not naive enough to think that if you just removed all controls on everyone that suddenly we’d rocket toward a prosperous future..that’s incorrect..you’d have major chemical companies dumping sludge down the river, oil companies that would just let the oil pollute the river without cleaning it up…you’d have private armies…
We need regulations, but right now our system has been subverted so that those with everything are regulating regular people, and they are getting pissed, they will reject the Government because it’s easy to blame the government…but that’s exactly what the billionaires want. With government out of the way they will be free to operate unchecked, and the general population will suffer far more than they do now.
” but right now our system has been subverted so that those with everything are regulating regular people, and they are getting pissed, they will reject the Government because it’s easy to blame the government…but that’s exactly what the billionaires want. With government out of the way they will be free to operate unchecked, ”
You just explained the problem quite clearly, but somehow you’re failing to reach the logical conclusion:
First off, how do “those with everything” regulate regular people? By using the government. With government out of the way, they would lose a powerful tool for protecting themselves. Incumbent corporations are the ones penning the regulations. Regulations certainly “restrain” corporations, but they place a heavier burden on startups and smaller companies who would provide competition to the incumbent corporations. Large, incumbent corporations have the advantage of more money to spend on compliance, and likely helped pen the very regulations they must abide by.
“When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” ~ P.J. O’Rourke
Government is the tool of corporations. They use it to squash competition. Sure regulations hurt them as well, but it’s a strategic victory, because it hurts their competition more than it does themselves.
You are ripping people off, You may pay them what you think is great pay, but you are causing people to be in debt to the government and not have any benefits. Until you actually pay employees, DO NOT COMMENT on anything wage related. I have worked contract for 9 years and I’m speaking for experience. KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT on matters you KNOW NOTHING about.
dude people are already in debt to the government without benefits to begin with.
I know a little something about them. All you have is assumptions and yelling. The only thing I have on my mind is more people with decent wages able to live a decent living or the good life. Why are there so many people that want others to suffer needlessly? Why do we have to be so greedy and selfish and judgmental? Why can’t we focus on the cutting edge and creating a better future? You’re all stuck in the past.
If they’re suffering needlessly, why is it the responsibility of anyone else to ensure that they don’t? Declining to subsidize others is not a desire for their misery, nor is it greed.
A “decent wage” and the “good life” are rather subjective.
I don’t think it’s subjective. We can boil it down to basic human needs…we definitely need water or we’ll die in 3 days, we definitely need food or we’ll die in a month..then it goes up from there, to the point where people need a decently secure and peaceful environment, good health, economic opportunities, etc. In order for them to ultimately be a successful person.
Some people have this from the get-go because of their families, others grow up in a bad environment and have a harder time.
When we have the resources to help and we decide not to, I think that’s morally wrong. It’s like if the village is starving, and one guy owns a food warehouse with enough to feed the town for weeks, but he locks the door and says “NO THIS IS MY FOOD!” as everybody starves. The way wealth is distributed in this country is just like that. Everybody really can have a decent life.
Employer/employee relationships are not “slavery lite.” They are voluntary agreements between the two parties. Slavery has a precise meaning, and working for a company that pays you an agreed-upon wage for agreed-upon work is not slavery.
Yeah that sounds good, but 8/10 jobs that I’ve worked for were pretty exploitative of their workers, it kind of felt like slavery-lite. Look at worker satisfaction in the country and it’s pretty low…it’s because of the exploitative, corporate work environment.
Companies tend to think about the bottom line alone, and push workers as hard as they can, for as little pay as possible. It’s not the best approach.
Read your posts, below. “I pay well above minimum.” “Don’t have employees. Have contract labor.” So, you pay no taxes, no workmen’s comp., no bookkeeping, no insurances, it’s all left to them ? They assume all costs ? You are too generous.
Do you run a restaurant or other kind of service business? Or do you do something else with a much higher value-add, like in the tech sector, where you must hire more skilled help at a higher wage? Apple and oranges, mi amigo…
I work in Tech..yes I totally know restaurants are different…I’m only saying I have partial credibility because I own a business and pay people too..
You’ve got people talking about how the struggling restaurant owner is completely right, even though they don’t run any type of business either.
It’s like if it’s negative, it’s right, but if something positive might be done, it’s seen as not credible just because it’s different industry than the subject at hand. It’s all connected.
Business goes up for me too with a higher minimum wage because people will be able to afford websites, computers, and technical resources (me).
That depends completely on the product you are supplying. If you start a small business doing plumbing, you pay a lot more than minimum because skilled labor and the market requires that. McDonald’s employees should not be paid at such a rate.
McDonalds can afford to pay more. As big as they are they and others can afford it
Really? Have you looked at their books? Read their annual reports?
have you looked at their books? What makes you an authority. Remember these fast food places are Franchises, owned by local people, not Big business.
my broth in law got caught up in cold stone ice cream cost him $65,000 to get in had to buy all of their products plus every year had to pay $10,000 year fee he couldn’t make it with one store took his life saving got 2 more stores lost everything even his home so tell howq much did he make asshole,the only making the money wa the guy selling you a peace of it
Maybe your brother is responsible for his own failures. Did you ever think of that? Not everyone is cut out to run a business.
Start-up businesses that fail often do so because of expansion, too much, too rapidly. Spending money on two more stores when he couldn’t make a go of one store isn’t a very good business decision.
It doesn’t matter how much McDonald’s can pay. The issue is whether you think it is right to use people with guns to make them pay whatever.
There’s no guns, it’s just a law..the people come up with laws right? I don’t really agree with politicians doing it, but if the general people vote to increase it through democratic action, then yes I support it. But guns is overly dramatic really.
Every government dictum is backed by the threat of force. It’s not dramatic, it’s mere fact. The government is a business like any other, and they sell two things: favors and force. If you don’t pay your taxes, they’ll take your property. If you defend your property, they’ll send men with guns to kidnap you. If you refuse to be kidnapped, they’ll kill you. Everything the state does has its logical conclusion in violence.
Democracy is not some magic bullet that makes things right. Slavery was democratic. Women not being allowed to vote was democratic. Democracy is mob rule. Granted, we have a democratic republic, which was intended to reduce the “mob rule” aspect of democracy. Our founding fathers hoped that we’d get the best features of democracy and check it with oligarchy, but we ended up with the worst features of both: a corrupt oligarchy pandering to the mob.
“Democracy? I want nothing to do with a system which operates on the premise that my rights don’t exist simply because I am outnumbered.” ~ R. Lee Wrights
Slavery is anti-democratic because slaves couldn’t vote…only the slavers could vote. Democracy is when it’s 1 person 1 vote and to where my vote matters just as much as yours.
The market isn’t a magic bullet either, things cost money that need to be done but they are a money pit sometimes, that’s what the State is for. Projects that need to be done but aren’t profitable, and take a lot of resources.
It’s the Republic that encourages mob rule because you literally have wealthy families pulling the strings in an oligarchic way. Thus creating crime families like the Bushes and the Clinton’s that we get to vote for. In a democracy my vote matters the same as Hillary Clinton. I can live with that.
Your future of abolishing the state only ensures that the wealthy and powerful will have absolute dictatorial control, with no public recourse. You can’t vote a CEO out of office as a customer. That’s your future.
The State has appropriate functions, but they are limited. The State does not exist to ensure that everyone gets what they want. The State exists to protect our rights (which are not something the State gives us, they’re ours from the get-go), the property by maintaining an army (but not against its own citizenry), and adjudicate contracts through the courts. The State has no money of its own, so anything it spends money on is done with seized wealth.
No one is arguing to abolish the State. Just to shrink it and scale back its power. A lot of the decisions belong to state and local governments.
You can vote a CEO out of office as a shareholder.
Yeah but if you don’t have any money to buy shares than it is a dictatorship. The ultimate result would be an elite class of shareholders, while everybody else gets no rights.
I agree some regulations are not very good and need to be scaled back, but I also think in other areas there hasn’t been enough action and resources need to be increased, like education, medical care, and so on.
With no state to equalize the distribution of income, you’ll have a few very wealthy and powerful warlords, and we’d be at their mercy pretty much. Our government sort of resembles the Mafia but if it were to be a democracy of the people more so, then the rules of the market and governmental policies would be more fair and reasonable.
It’s a metaphor for government coercion. In a very real sense, it is a gun to your head.
My God, what a moron. Go back to the first grade and learn some basic economic facts of life.
HMMM I happen to make a great wage of $75 an hour, IN CASH. I have 32 years of Tattooing under my belt and 2, counted two, very successful businesses. I have 0 debt, and own my home and vehicles. So in summation, take your inbred southern as back to the south necropedifelcher.
Then kiss the dollar menu goodbye
what i am confused about is why are these restaurants closing? if i remember right, those affected by the wage icnrease are the ones with more than five hundred employees, thus designed to affect those able to pay it. those with less are giving more time to adapt to it in the future.
Read a little something about franchises. You might learn something that you clearly do not know now.
For me it’s Information Technology and Software development, so effectively I pay my people anywhere from $40-65/hr…there’s a lot more leeway in that field. I’m not even wealthy or anything, I make about 90k a year…but my logic is that if I can provide good part time work for 3 people, making that much, then Wal-Mart and McDonalds with their billions of dollars can sure as hell pay their workers a decent wage.
Business owners that are millionaires can certainly afford it too…if I can. Every year I make more, everybody I interact with customers and workers included, really likes my model, so I’m going to keep using it…I know the negative opinions of me here are only because of how contract labor is seen in most industries, and yeah it’s really shitty to hire temp labor for pennies on the dollar and work them to the bone…that’s not me. Here’s my site:
http://s31tech.org
LIER IF YOU PAYED 50 HR 2 DAYS WEEK THATS $1,600 MOTH $65 HOUR IS $2,O80 MONTH BEFORE YOU SAID $1500 WHAT IS IT REALLY 40 dAY
It depends on how valuable they are and how much business they bring in, I work with 3 people, at different levels of development and skills, so pay them different. What is this Communist Russia?
Also business comes in bursts, haven’t you ever run a business? It has up and down cycles. It’s not a steady flow of money coming in. I don’t have any complaints and everybody seems to be doing well that I interact with. Not sure where all the hate comes from. I’m doing something whereas most people like you are doing absolutely nothing to improve the situation.
I want to do more, but I’m doing more than most.
$90K is a damn good income for someone still in his twenties.
You pay above minimum because you aren’t paying the taxes, buying health insurance, or covering any other benefits for your contract employees. Do you pay overtime? I bet you feel stupid now for posting. You shouldn’t talk about things you really have no idea about. Maybe all businesses should only hire contract labor. Is that what you are suggesting? Is that how it will be totally possible?
It’s called self-employment tax. I actually end up paying double taxes because my employer (nobody) isn’t picking up half the tab like at a normal Job.
Look it up:
http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Self-Employment-Tax-Social-Security-and-Medicare-Taxes
It’s the same amount of taxes either way, except with self-employment tax the burden is squarely on my shoulders, but if you are a W2 employee then you only pay half of those taxes and your employer picks up the other half.
Right. And your part-time contractors are on the hook for their full tax burdens, too. But they’re not making $90K a year with write-offs. They’re working 2 days a week for $1,500/month. That’s $18,000/year. The self-employment bite on that is 15.3% for Social Security and Medicare. That’s about $2,754 off the top, plus any income or other taxes owed.
So they’re netting less than $16,000/year with no benefits. A $9/hour full-time job might yield a better deal for them.
Don’t kid yourself that you’re paying double taxes. You’re just paying the full tax liability as are all employers. The burden isn’t only the money. Businesses are impressed into service as tax collectors, are required to file reams of paperwork, and in turn, they must pay those monies to the government. All the money comes from the employer.
Your personal example is quite humorous and not applicable to the issue.
And I’d bet your employees aren’t doing minimum wage jobs either. Why do you suppose Microsoft doesn’t pay minimum wage?
They would be doing minimum wage jobs otherwise because they are unskilled labor and they want to learn a skill. I bet I’d be respected by you guys if I charged them for me to teach them, instead of paying them more than fair for the work, to have on the job training. I am teaching them to be self-sufficient and independent so that they don’t need to rely on an employer…No employer I’ve ever worked for gave a damn…It really turned me in the opposite direction. My efforts are modest but I already have 8 unskilled people out there in the world with relevant tech skills, so they were able to get better paying jobs in the industry I taught them in. Pay it forward.
Fleagus, that just shows you own a SUCCESSFUL business. To anyone who can’t pay their employees a minimum wage after being in business for a while, you aren’t succeeding, so you should just close your doors.
And people who can’t afford things that now cost more because the husiness owner had to raise prices to meet increased labor costs won’t be buying either Goodbye, neighborhood diner!
Especially when your former customers are eating in a nearby suburb for 20-25% less. Competition don’t ya know? Although I realize competition is something these mush heads cannot understand.
Perhaps price controls are next?
In reality is hadn’t worked out by your r gloomy theories. Labor is only one part of the cost of business, and the others don’t go up, so the price increase to cover a wage increase is a small percentage. For Wal-Mart for example 1% higher prices pays for $15 minimum wages. Would you drive to the next state to save 1%, or just to make sure you supported a business that tastes Employees badly?
Historically what actually happens when the minimum wage has gone up is that prices go up slightly but demand goes up more, and the economy improves. Look at SeaTac for a recent example. The businesses that claimed they would fire people are instead hiring, and hotels are adding capacity instead. Your theory doesn’t work in practice!
” Labor is only one part of the cost of business, and the others don’t go up”
Within two sentences of your comment you have demonstrated two things: you don’t run a restaurant, and you don’t know what you’re talking about.
If payrolls go up, so do payroll taxes. Employers match the FICA withheld from employees’ paychecks. Restaurants are not the only businesses subject to the $15 minimum wage, they’re just very vulnerable because their margins are so narrow. Many of their vendors may have to increase their prices, too, and they will pass that increase along to their customers.
If Wal-Mart treats its employees so badly, then why do people clamor for those jobs every time a new Wal-Mart opens?
Can you give me an example of how minimum wage increases drive up demand? Your SeaTac example is misleading — isn’t that an airport? It remains to be seen how the increase will affect that. The minimum wage increase does not drive demand. Other factors do.
WTF are you talking about? In Seattle, restaurants are announcing they are closing BEFORE the minimum wage increase takes effect. And I’ll be damned if I have to pay more for a business to pay some surly, illiterate high school dropout $15.00 an hour to perform an entry-level job.
Yet another example of a class of people who can’t think their way to the logical conclusion of this issue. They simply lack the capacity to see reality: socialism has never succeeded and instead, brings entire countries to ruin.
Really. Then Denmark, Sweden, and
a host of other European countries who have made socialism work must’ve not gotten the memo. Note we are talking about socialism and NOT communism.
Bad example..Denmark and Sweden are very insular, with tightly controlled immigration to balance their ledgers. Most all other European socialist countries are near or in bankruptcy. West Germany spent 10 years digging out of the whole they fell in after shouldering the immense debt of their socialist brethren in East Germany after unification.
Sweden is ruined and the second high country with rapes per captiva in the whole world – after south Africa. They are destroying themself.. and every body who is criticism this is racist
The great liberal myth. Compare small socially homogeneous countries to ours…logical fallacy. The melting pot European countries are functionally bankrupt through social and pension spending and are certainly failing by any standard.
Have you ever been to Denmark or Sweden? It’s not working.
That would come as a surprise to the people who live in Denmark and Sweden. Happy people, economies doing well. What part isn’t working?
Well, for one thing, they are not true socialists. Only about a quarter of their production is government owned. And another thing is they have no national minimum wage.
Denmark isn’t doing too bad. They’ve gone to a NIRP because their currency is tightly tied to the Euro. Sweden’s open immigration policy has lead to a terrible increase in crime. I lived in Copenhagen for a while. The country has it’s good and bad points. Each of the “Socialist Paradise” positives comes with a drawback. Like, “Everyone Rides Bikes or Takes Public Transportation!”. Well, that’s because Denmark taxes cars at 180% (Yes, 180%) and gas costs are about $8/gallon. “The government pays for Health Care and College!”. Well, that’s paid for by a 30% VAT (MOMs) on everything. etc. etc.
Some unexpected things are just better in the US. Like building codes. Nothing over there is what you’d call ADA compliant. The concept of “fire hazard” and “Emergency Exit” isn’t really the same. There isn’t the social/criminal stigma of being fall-down drunk, or shooting up drugs, or picking up a streetwalker.
Now that is funny as most European countries are moving away from socialism as it is not working and they are going bankrupt much like Seattle eventually will. Do a little reading and studying Miranda you might actually learn something.
We are not socialist… and we will never be socialist. get it thru your head.
Right, Greece and Spain are doing just fabulously under socialism aren’t they. http://www.aei.org/publication/the-american-lefts-two-europes-problem/
Oh shit, you DON’T know how the Situation in Denmark and Sweden is??
Exactly only people who have no clue about economics and have never operated a business advocate this type of economic fascism on businesses. They use these empty words like “fair wage”, “living wage”….. I have this to say to them excuse me but…. when 2 people VOLUNTARILY negotiate a wage…… who is getting hurt since it’s voluntary? For those who advocate minimum wage to aim the guns of government at peaceful people is immoral and irresponsible and it shows how clueless they are with operating a business and basic economics.
And what are your qualifications Devin. I been doing it for over twenty years and pay everyone enough to live and they give good return. Very few people are able to negotiate their starting salary. More take it or leave it. Only idiots or greedy assholes think like you.
If they do not like the salary then they should leave it, not demand that a bunch of counter culture hipsters extort money out of uncool business owners on their behalf.
“WILL THE LAST PERSON LEAVING SEATTLE PLEASE TURN OUT THE LIGHTS?”
http://blogs.seattletimes.com/fyi-guy/2014/05/22/census-seattle-is-the-fastest-growing-big-city-in-the-u-s/
Fastest growing big city in America. I don’t expect you to admit you’re wrong, because, of course, you’re a republican.
Of course since you’re a liberal it’s no wonder you’re completely wrong. Seattle isn’t growing because of the minimum wage increase or minimum wage jobs dumbass. Amazon is a prime driver, how many minimum wage employees do you think they’re employing? Of course as a liberal you won’t admit that.
A rising sea lifts all ships.
You have the intent of that expression exactly backwards. That statement – “A rising tide lifts all ships” actually means that an improving economy helps everybody……… the poor, AND the rich. But your version goes more like “strangle the rich, to feed the poor”. All that does is to kill the goose that laid the golden egg.
Actually no, TestSalad is correct. The employees get more income, which will get spent. Where does it get spent? In businesses owned by … who? oh yeah, the wealthy, the “job creators”.
Giving low income folks a raise does far more to stimulate the economy because they have current expense needs that aren’t being met. The wealthy can just stick any additional income in the bank where it sits, not creating jobs, not increasing demand. Just earning cash for the wealthy that doesn’t even get taxed at the same level as labor income.
Love how the poor are supposed to believe the rising tide slogan but the rich don’t have to.
The rich can afford it, the poor can’t afford it.
Also sinks them deeper when they hit a GUBERMINT BUSINESS KILLER BERG.
Begging your pardon but Houston is the fastest growing city– read here: http://www.forbes.com/sites/erincarlyle/2015/01/27/americas-fastest-growing-cities-2015/
Where do you get your info? Seattle is not the fastest growing big city in America. Fort Worth, Texas is #1. Many of the top 10 are in Texas.
I actually provided the link that backs up my statement. It was pretty clear.
Hey idiot, you posted a story from before the minimum wage increase was passed. Brilliant piece of work.
A link from almost a year ago. Times change, sometime really fast.
You gave a link to a blog. Wow, that has to be accurate right? Here is a link from somewhere I trust a little more then a blog. Especially a blog from the city it is trying to spin up.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erincarlyle/2015/01/27/americas-fastest-growing-cities-2015/
I notice you don’t say anything at all about the link to Forbes that says the “blog” is wrong. That’s right, liberals ignore facts when it doesn’t suit their needs. Poor Poor TossedSalad. You are so clueless I won’t even bother replying. Obviously you have been brainwashed and just choose to ignore facts. Oh well. You keep on reading blogs. I hear they have all the cutting edge news and the only place that is fact checked 🙂 (sarcasm in case you are too dense to know it)
Wah…Wahh. Wait! You mean a city in a Republican state is the fastest growing? Crap! Based upon what I am reading here, I was sure that Detroit headed that list. The next thing you will tell me is that Texas gained four congressional seats in the last census.
Hey, it’s Mister ASSumption! People who disagree with you are wrong, and they are also Republicans? Automatically!? Wow, so you’re a Democrat who is always right? What a narcissist! Man, you need to stop being so full of yourself, asshole.
Yep, just as I said.
Since when is a Seattle blog a “news source”… $15 hr to flip a burger… Ridiculous…
I’m surpised they didn’t use red ink!
Was the fastest. Not for long. Don.
2014
And you believe a blog from the Seattle TImes??
Did you just use a blog as a justification that you are right? That’s even worse then quoting wiki as your facts. What’s next? You see it on a matchbook and that will be your evidence?
Last time I checked, The Seattle Times is a newspaper.
Yes it is a news paper. Left leaning but a news paper. Did you not even look at the link you gave? It was a blog. You know blogs are not really regulated. They aren’t accurate most times. But you keep thinking a blog which isn’t the same as an actual article in the newspaper is the final word. Plus if you notice there are many other places that are not blogs such as the link I gave you from Forbes. You know Forbes right? Just about everyone has heard of them while only the people in Washington has heard of the Seattle Times. The link from them doesn’t even mention Seattle when it talks about the fastest growing city. But you don’t want to hear that do you? Actual facts from multiple places which show you as wrong you will dismiss.
Oh look what I found
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erincarlyle/2015/01/27/americas-fastest-growing-cities-2015/
Moron.
I don’t expect you to admit you use “facts” that are about as durable as 1 ply toilet paper because, of course, you are a liberal moron.
Liberal Moron=Libtard
Oh, insults. Why did you even bother? Why would you waste your time?
Really? You start the insults and then whine when they are thrown back at you? My God, how much of a whiny double standard libtard are you? Scroll through your posts before you run your mouth and say you didn’t say anything.
Was
Oh, did the liberal oasis of Austin, TX replace it in the top spot?
Shouldn’t we wait to see the implementation of the new wage before we measure the results.. Why would it matter if Seattle was the fastest growing a couple of years before the wage was increased?
Because they can afford it now.
How do you figure that?
Click!
what kind of restaurant do you have? if you run a business that is different, the minimal wage probably does not really relate to your business. personally , I would not mind paying higher prices at restaurants and therefore not going thru the tipping ritual.
The tips will be missed by the wait staff.
The choice to be a minimum wage worker was made when these folks decided that acquiring an education and/or skills which would have some value in the world of commerce was not worth the effort. Ignorance can be cured, stupidity cannot. Minimum wage keeps the cycle turning out more and more dependency on those who were able to understand a free market system at the most elementary level.
Except that we have hundreds of thousands of people with degrees working minimum wage jobs because there are not enough skilled job open.
I’ll suggest that those degrees were in worthless areas of concentration such as Womyns’ Studies, Religion in the 21st Century and the History of Pornography.
Liberal Arts degrees financed by student loans never to be repaid. The American Dream I suppose.
Business degrees too.
Thank the democrat party for that. Democrats idea of job creation is expand government.
Government Creates Poverty.
The only thing it does really well.
Yea genius that is their platform but of course like everything else republicans spout it’s a lie. For the last 40 years the size of government has risen far more under republicans than under democrats. Grow a brain and actually do some research.
Lol I think you need to read some more history books to get your facts straight! Funny how the left thinks their political leaders are saints & never lie! You’ve got to be one of the most ignorant posters on here…
I’ve done my research douch bag. Luckily most of the country did last Nov 4 also.
Go back in your cave and wait for your government dole to show up in the mail box.
You may fly straight but your brain needs work. I can almost guarantee I pay at least double what you do in taxes and other than my military pay from back in the day I have never received a government check. But keep believing that right wing talking point nonsense and see where it gets you. And next time one of your gods like walker talks actually pay attention to what they are proposing to SOLVE a problem….hint…nothing. They simply complain about everything obama does but they don’t actually propose a solution.
Like I said. Keep signing the back of the checks while people like me keep signing the front of them in order to pay for your parties promises.
Sooner or later you’ll run out of other peoples money.
Can anyone believe this traitor bragged about what he pays in taxes? If you think that’s honor, your the problem.
Hey, that military pay was a government check, idiot. So, you were sucking on the taxpayers teat for a while. Hurts, don’t it. 🙂
Obama certainly give a person enough to complain about! I thought he taught about the constitution. He doesn’t seem to remember how things are supposed to be done. It is too bad we have a DICTATOR instead of a president.
That’s just not true. Beginning with Reagan the gop has downsized government. It has doubled under our current tyrant, err president.
In reality Reagan grew the government rapidity, Clinton slowly, Bush grew government explosively, and Obama is the only president in our lifetime to actually shrink the government.
Lie. The 2009 budget was the largest budget deficit in US history, and it was signed 5 months late by Obama because the Democratic Congress refused to pass the budget until Bush had left office.
The amount of debt the Obama Administration has run up is rapidly approaching the amount of debt all the other Presidents combined ran up.
Lol “doubled in size”, obama is literally the first president in decades in which the size of government employment has shrunk. But what would one expect from low information right wing sheep. Unless you morons actually start researching issues this country is going to be in 3rd world status if you continue voting republican.
Lie. Obama signed the 2009 budget that exploded the deficit.
Oh child, you’re so adorable when you openly demonstrate your ignorance. 😉
The 2009 fiscal year (emphasis added for LIVs) U.S. Federal budget was submitted to Congress by President Bush; and that Congress approved the budget on …
June 5, 2008.
You did know that Congress controls the budget, right?
…
[crickets]
Oh dear. That is tremendously embarrassing for you. No one will blame you for changing your screen name.
It is true that final spending bills of that approved budget were not signed until 2009, but your confusion on the issue is legion. The CBO estimated that fully one-half of the deficit was the result of the 2008 TARP bailouts which, as the name indicates, were also enacted in 2008 (October 3, 2008, to be specific, LIV).
So dates, recent American History and economics are also not among your strengths. Don’t fret. Surely something is. 🙂
http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikepatton/2013/01/24/the-growth-of-the-federal-government-1980-to-2012/
Read this. I don’t know if Forbes is a liberal rag or not but I was surprised to see the data. (R) Now government spending has nearly doubled; yes.
And what do Republicans do to grow the economy? Has it ever worked?
Idiot. Do some research and answer your own questions. Stop relying on acquaintances and Rachel Maddow to tell you how the world works.
That is the fastest-growing employment sector.
and the republican idea of job creation is making the rich richer
Really moron? Did you just say that? The gap has never been wider nor grown at such a clip as under Obama’s reign.
Philosophy and art history degrees are not the types of degrees/skills/education we are talking about. In the tech industry we are desperate for people with skills. (Skills, not degrees)
Yeah, what can you do with a degree in gender studies?
The emphasis is on credentials more than actual knowledge and skills.
Roy, I need a JOB! My resume is poorly written but I have skills in avionics and computer systems, to include: optics, RADAR, LASERS, and acoustic processing systems. $15 an hour won’t cut it though. LOL
I’m a technical recruiter and I disagree with this statement. Every single one of my hiring managers insist that the individual must have both a degree in CS or a related field and industry experience.
Apparently, you got this far in life without taking a course in reading comprehension.
Disagree all you like. My degree is in poly sci. No one cares. I get contacts from recruiters all the time and no one has blinked at my degree except one government job.
People with php skills and some experience are making 75k and up. Some times much more if they are good.
Because dumbass kids are getting degrees that go no where. Get a trade or skill that’s highly wanted, not a bachelors in psychology. Just because you have a degree doesn’t mean your entitled to anything, it just portrays what you’ve accomplished and what your skill set is.
Some basic welding vocational school is looking a heck of a lot better than a philosophy degree and working as a bar tender these days.
Exactly. I have an advanced liberal-arts degree and can’t get a job in my chosen field (academia). So I started my own business. Two of them, in fact. My “entry level” employee gets $15/hour (which is really about $24/hour, including taxes & payroll costs) not because the government mandates it, but because I am competing for the best-skilled administrative assistant I can afford. My other employee’s base salary is even lower than that, but his earned quarterly bonuses mean he gets even more take-home pay than I do— and he’s worth every penny! As for me, if I divide my monthly income by how much time I spent working to earn it, it’s depressing: between $4 and $8 per hour depending on the month. But I’m doing something I love, and I set my own hours & calendar, and my employees and associates (who get 1099s) keep things running when I’m gone.
Still, in comparison, my son is working toward a welding certification that will earn him $80/hour starting salary, $150/hour average in the first 2 years, and as much as $250/hour if he advances in his skills. As a welder. He’ll out-earn his old man in his first year of full-time work!
Nicolas, Administrative Assistants (while definitely entry-level) are NOT considered “unskilled labor.” Restaurant servers (not chefs) are considered “unskilled labor.”
And kudos to your son! My husband has his welding certifications, but is running a trucking company at the moment.
But what kind of degrees? Womyn’s Studies? African American History? Basketweaving? Or maybe some other useless Libturd Philosophy?
Which doesn’t change the math. Overqualified by spending tens of thousands on valueless degrees still makes you as valuable waiting tables as a high school dropout.
A valueless degree doesn’t make someone overqualified to do anything, at best it makes them over educated – but still not qualified or valuable.
Then why can’t I find help?
Ben, a degree does not mean you are a skilled person. It means you paid enough money for the paper that without experience will get you a low wage job to start. Now a tech school graduate is a skilled person that depending on the skill can start out with a decent wage. This entitlement society we have created has everyone believing any degree from anywhere means you should get paid.
Having a degree is not the same thing as having marketable skills.
It’s not the same thing as having an education, either.
A degree does not mean you have a marketable skill. I don’t know any electricians out of work but I know plenty of people with history and other non skilled degrees out of work.
What sort of degrees? International Relations?
Look at what their degrees are in…. art. Dancing. No real value on most of the degrees people get
This from someone who has no degree.
No Benjamin, the paying jobs are there in the trades businesses. Unfortunately todays young people are too busy earning Lib Arts degrees and training to work in air conditioned cubicles. Have fun making a living with that English Lit degree. We no longer have people willing to get their hands dirty.
Thank the Democrat party and the “open borders” crowd for that.
Chicken/Egg, utterly avoidable by making good choices. There are not enough skilled jobs open for them because a LOT of those people chose to get a degree in a field for which there is no demand. How is that anybody’s fault besides that of the person who made poor decisions with their educational choices? The rest of us have to pay more for our burgers, so that someone who chose to major in feminist studies with a minor in underwater basket-weaving instead of majoring in petroleum engineering shouldn’t have to accept the consequences of his/her choices? Please. Choices have consequences. It’s a fact of life. To try and evade reality by removing consequence from decision making process is a recipe for social, political, and cultural disaster. As we are witnessing.
EXACTLY!!
Not really. Many of the people working restaurant jobs are unable to get real jobs, attending college, or cobbling together two PT jobs in today’s economy. You’re being simplistic.
Restaurants jobs are real jobs. There is potential to make a living waiting tables or bartending.
This is going to severely affect tipping, too.
Education and skill set don’t go hand in hand. There are plenty of college grads (even with PhDs) who fund themselves under employed especially in regards to their degree. Likewise there are just as many folks who lack a college education who hold skilled professional roles. The free market system works exactly as it’s meant to work, ask the 1% and the disappearing middle class. That’s the problem. Too many look out only for their own short sighted interests and seem unwilling to consider that as a community issues impact all of us. We need a service industry and affordable housing options. I’m sad to see places such as Grub close its door and I’m also concerned about folks who make $30k annually yet can barely afford a roof over their head, food in their belly and access to doctors. We can sustain a minimum wage of $15 p/h especially with monsters such as Amazon, Microsoft, Google and Facebook in our market.
Foresight, the ability to look into the future, is a prerequisite for any decision and the desire to obtain a university degree should be accompanied by the understanding of this valuable asset. Areas of concentration such as esoteric Womyn’s Studies programs have absolutely no value in the world of commerce so obtaining a degree with a major or even a minor in these subjects is a very silly and probably emotional, choice. Reality dictates harsh consequences for poor choices but educating people to look beyond tomorrow is exceedingly difficult thus Seattle’s citizenry will soon understand the perils of tampering with basic economic tenets.
Bet you aren’t running a restaurant are you
So what would you pay a design engineer?
Do my own but my employees make close to what I make and we all live quite well thank you.
To answer the question, do you have a dollar figure, that you can offer, that you would pay, if needed, an electrical design engineer?
Have indeed needed the service and last time I paid $300.00 an hour. That was to sign off on my work in another state. Why do you seem to think you are dealing with an idiot. I assure you my education and training in multiple fields and license and certification serve me quite well in a field where idiots are short lived. You have yourself a nice little life.
You got took to the cleaners. By an electrician.
Your response is not a rebuttal to anything I typed merely ad hominem attacks. You must prove to me how using violence in a peaceful situation will bring about a better outcome than voluntarily and peacefully negotiating wages. I advocate for peaceful voluntary interactions between people are you saying using the government as a 3rd party violent thug is a more preferable way than voluntarily interacting?
That might be the case for the margins of whatever business you are conducting, but that is simply not true for many situations. The fact that you stated that you are an exception to this demonstrates that negotations are not a take it or leave it prospect. They are simply take it or leave it for this particular opportunity, in this particular place, with these particular people. No planner or bleeding heart can make paying for a task at a loss worth it, regardless if this task is done by a person or not. If robots were incredibly slow and expensive at welding auto bodies, we simply wouldn’t use them for those tasks. Economic feasibility isn’t about greed or how anyone feels about it, if the economic results of someone’s skills is below the market worth of the tasks completed no businessman in their right mind is going to push the LOSE button until they go under.
Starting salaries, along with all other salaries, are dictated by the labor market, not the employer. When you artificially inflate the min wage, then you destroy unskilled jobs. The formula is that you lose 1% of min wage jobs for every 10% you raise the min wage. If you double the min wage from $7.50 to $15, that 100% increase will cost 10% of the min wage jobs. More will be lost later as employers reconfigure their shops to use less min wage labor.
But Steve… The market is so scarrrrry! It is too cruel! That would be like facing reality. Can’t we give the government magical powers to defy the laws of nature?
You’re right. The job market is no place for fantasy.
The Feds already believe they have that.
Historically, that is not the case. When the national minimum wage has been increased previously, there was a negligible change in hiring habits by employers. Employers need a base level of employees to run the business. That’s a given. In fact, since the Great Recession, employers have done away with more full time jobs, creating more part-time work, with no benefits, and with no way to take a second job due to the way they schedule work times. Open availability and part-time work should flat out be illegal.
The reason why there was little job destruction in some cases when the min wage was increased was that it was below the market wage. In the boom of the 1990s, there was a hiring boom that lifted the market wage for unskilled labor above the min wage. Congress increased the min wage, but it was still below the market wage. When the boom busted in the 2000s, the min wage was above the market wage, but it was hidden by the general fall in employment. Making illegal part-time work and work that pays below an arbitrary minimum is a good way to destroy the edges of the economy, particularly the job market for unskilled labor. The main reason that employers are going to part time labor is ObamaCare, which makes full time labor in small businesses unprofitable.
By your analysis, the only way a business owner can now recoup the higher wages is through increased pricing on what they sell. True? This increase in wages doesn’t come out of thin air…and the business owners aren’t going to take a lower wage on their end, especially if they are just squeezing out a living. So the only people affected are the minimum wage worker (more in their pocket) and those of us that frequent that business (less in our pocket due to price increases)…not to mention the lose of jobs at this new minimum wage because now the workers that remain will have to pick up the slack of the hours lost by the fired employees while still working their same hours. I don’t know what historical data you are referring to, but when I ran my businesses and business was slow…I took the hit in salary so I could pay my employees and my accountant & wife used to scream at me for doing so. That only goes so far in this new economy. Time will tell.
You are absolutely right. The owners have no where else to take a hit. A full-time employee at $15 an hour makes $30k a year. My husband is a small business owner. He doesn’t make $30k a year.
But the hiring patterns change as the cost of labor gets closer to the cost of technology to replace those jobs.
This was over time due to inflation, and costs rose along with it. Compare what $20 could buy you in the ’60s compared to now. On the other side of that coin, if minimum wage rised at the same pace as inflation it would be right around $15/hour. This was plain greed. Corporations slashed costs to get a head with huge profit margins. Now that they are massive they only need a really small margin to survive, so now it is the small businesses that would suffer due to an income hike. Notice how all the businesses that are closing are small time? This is just a way for the larger corporations to get ahead by pushing out small time competition.
I started work in 1966 at the minimum wage rate of $1.25/hr. Today that would be $9.02 according to an inflation calculator site. SS and Medicare went from 4.2% combined to 7.65% combined. Thus employers are paying an extra $.32 per hour in addition to inflation vs. 1966 (their half of SS and Medicare). So to compare apples to apples, you subtract the $.34 from the employee side since the employer is paying that extra part. Result:
Minimum Wage
1966 – $1.25
2015 – $8.70
Actual in WA is $9.25. Workers get paid more now.
Your ideology is showing Glen…thanks for playing.
Good to know I work at being fair to all that pull a check here every week.
Whatever that means Glen and obviously little application to the discussion, but glad you feel good about it.
I call BS. You haven’t run shit. Profit margins can be so low the owner makes less than their employees. What buisness do you run, what are your margians?
Call what you want I have been a contractor for twenty two years. And it is true that some years I made close to what my employees made but that was OK because they made a good living. Other years I made many times what they made and they where OK with that because they made a good living. So Tony you know what you can do with your call. I may not be a greedy ass bastard but myself and those who have and still work for me will tell you where you can get off.
I appreciate what you are doing Glen, but that is your choice. What’s at issue here is the government forcing their bias down the throats of businesses. No one is faulting you for running your business the way you want to, but keep government out of free enterprise business decisions (free enterprise which this country was built upon, and needs to continue if this country is going to survive).
The choice to take it or leave it is a NEGOTIATION! No one is forced to accept the offer. If a business is not paying what the workers feel is a fair wage then the workers have the freedom to find a different employer.
Good point my dad had a boss who was in business for something like 40 or 50 years before selling his company for I’m sure a nice retirement
. By giving his workers a fair wage and awesome benefits (fill all your personal vehicles with gas for free is one example) his business thrived. The greedy assholes who bought the business from him are about to go under. They tried to get my dad back to work for them for a slightly higher hourly wage but no benefits, but he refused. Remember you get what you pay for. If you cant pay your employees what they deserve, they probably aren’t going to do the quality of work you deserve.
So, Glen what type of business do you run that you can afford to pay $15.00/ hour for unskilled labor? You must be ripping off you customer to have such a large margin. So you are the greedy one ripping off your customers or you are full of shit. I have been in business 34 years, when the government tells me how much to pay without knowing my margin I will close the doors and retire.
Ever notice that so-called “progressives” (who love to be generous with OTHER PEOPLE’S MONEY) are never “greedy?”
So what is “enough” to live? Isn’t that different for everyone? Some are single, married, divorced, ill, …how do you get to decide what is enough? We live in a free country, and I can say yes or no to the wage offered. If I don’t know the difference in my skills, motivation and needs…shame on me. Get thee to a library and study economics. The only people that receive equal treatment live in prisons where food, shelter, clothing, education, recreation, medical, etc is provided to all…big problem though…no freedom! And even in prison, some people are housed and treated according to their behavior. Who wants to live like that????? we should want to decide for ourselves how we want to live without government intervention. No communism/socialism here please!
You employ people who earn tips and pay them above minimum wage?
its socialism. that is what Obama and democrats want.
There is NO negotiation. It’s take it or leave it from the employer. No negotiation on the hours you work, or availability. Oh, no! That’s an imposition on the employer. Sometimes you have to take what you can get so you can just muddle through. The prospective employee has NO leverage to negotiate. Not one whit. So don’t try to make it sound like it’s a negotiated proposal. It’s not.
YOU DONT HAVE TO TAKE THAT JOB!!!!
If you can’t pay your employees enough to support them. the business model is flawed. Otherwise, they are no better than exploited slave labor. But hey, if you want to subsidize their food, housing and health care instead of demanding that employers do it, I guess you don’t mind paying more taxes.
So is it okay if an employer convinces a desperate applicant to accept $2/hr? Is it always fair if it’s a voluntary agreement? Would you say the same about predatory payday loans?
Unfortunately it is socialist thinking. Some people confuse charity, which is a good thing, with creating a law that forces others to give, as being good. These people actually sleep better at night thinking THEY are the moral ones.
But but…I thought businesses were in the business of giving jobs? You’re beginning to make it sound like some kind of capitalistic evil…
I think you need to educate yourself better! The Employer does not pay an extra $7.00 on the paycheck. It is taken out mostly of the employees paycheck… so they can hope to take about 11.50 of that $15.00 paycheck home. People need to face the truth. The way it is right now is calling for more and more people living below the poverty line…… So much for being a 1st. class country….. I should have stayed in Germany!
What are you talking about? The extra money is taken from the paychecks of employees who NO LONGER HAVE JOBS!
nothing is stopping you from going back to germany
Apparently you don’t own a business or do payroll. An employer plays an additional employment tax on each employee on top of the wage paid to the employee. What comes out of an employee’s paycheck goes straight to the government, not to the employer. On top of the employee tax, the employee also has to pay insurance just to cover the employee- not health but worker’s compensation. It’s very expensive to have an employee.
No Mary, The money that comes out of an employees paycheck for taxes is just the employees part. The employer also must pay payroll tax based on payroll. My workers comp and general liability insurance is also based on payroll. I just got hit with an insurance payment of about $6k for raising payroll last year. That was a pretty healthy hit on a credit card so I can stay in business. Unfortunately no one guarantees I make money and thee are times when those who owe me money wait to pay longer than expected equipment breaks down and needs to be fixed, and business is just slow. Other times it is a great experience. I encourage everyone that thinks it is easy money and the owner is greedy to jump in and get ya some.
Mary…please educate yourself to avoid looking foolish. You have little knowledge of what the truth is regarding expenses. The poverty line is mostly a myth Mary, but keep on talking about it as if it is true.
Mr. foo, that just happened.
The only thing I would add to this statement is that the wage is only about 1/3 of the actual expense an employer pays to employ someone. Now Obamacare had made that even worse. The actual employer cost is close to $40/hour for an employee making $15.
People think employers just have money to spare but at a %4 profit isn’t really worth keeping a resteraunt open. It’s just scraping by. Essentially the resteraunt is living paycheck to paycheck. Any more expense and it goes in the hole.
Entry level jobs were never meant to sustain people throughout their lives. They were only meant to help people enter the workforce.
I been signing checks for over twenty years and paying living wage. You may know 101 but I know keeping good help requires good wages.
There are plenty of restaurants out there doing. And they aren’t high end restaurants with massive intake. They are regular restaurants. Stop making excuses. If as a business owner you are making less than $15 per hour (as this article claims is common), and your employees make even less, then your business is already a failure because everyone from lowest employee to owner is earning poverty wages. Clearly something has to change. No one who works should live in poverty.
Unfortunately the word poverty has become grossly misused and mischaracterized. The government publishes artificial levels they label poverty, but most live under that line with little appearance of the visual represented. The census says that most of these people have food, clothing, shelter, and amenities, yet we continue to waive this as a banner for change as if these people are rooting through dumpsters and living in boxes.
You are some pro…. Employers do not pay Social Security or Medicaid taxes at all this is entirely paid by employees! Nice try though!
You are wrong! They do pay Payroll taxes. You don’t know what you’re
talking about!!!!
They pay half of the SS to start…
Obviously you haven’t signed a paycheck and failed business 101. The employer would really be paying around $17.50 (federal taxes 7.65%, federal unemployment .6%, state employment ~2%, L&I ~5%). Also it is being phased in. People start businesses for all sorts of reasons, but smart business owners know taking care of employees is smart business. That doesn’t make them asshats. I assure you these restaurants are not shutting down because they have to pay a little more for labor, it is a convenient excuse for something else wrong. Stop trying to scare people with lies when you obviously don’t know what you are talking about.
He’s never signed the front of the check. He’s a liberal bastion of hope and humanity digging in everyone elses pockets along the way in order to pay for his promises.
Hey Mr fool, why do rents average $1500 a month?
Yeppers, Foo would bust in a week operating a lemonade stand.
It’s simply ignorance ecec55. Feelings outweigh real knowledge and ideology trumps common sense.
Workers work to make a living, just like the entrepreneurs. If the entrepreneurs can’t figure out how to make enough for them and their employees, then that’s on them.
Amen sir! People that know nothing about business love to support this!
. http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/26/smallbusiness/employee_costs/
I rest my case!
Did you factor in the cost of ACA?
Now there you go stating facts and making sense. The left can’t handle the truth. I tell these people, next time your in a fast food restaurant, take a step back and OBSERVE the employees. Then, you can come tell me YOU would pay these people $15/hour. They come on late, call out regularly, put their entertainment ahead of their job and demand accommodation. I managed restaurants for over 25 years and left because of this new mentality. We’re pretty much screwed as a country with these kids as our future.
You are wasting your time responding to the socialist troll. He is incapable of dealing with the realities of running a business.
actually YOU sounds like a narcissistic asshat, put the blunt down and go back to class.
The people have it wrong nowadays. used to be – go to school, earn a degree/work, then get married, then have babies. now people have it in reverse. the teens have 4 babies and they complain I cannot feed a family of 4 on minimum wage. but this is the consequences of the people who value sex over waiting till you can handle a family. and have the means to do it.
Exactly right and well said. Self entitled socialist idiots like them mistakenly believe someone else owes them a job. As an entrepreneur myself I will only hire when I actually need to and at the minimum wage that makes sense for from an expense standpoint.
If hiring someone at the State required minimum is not going to increase my profits then I won’t do it. If the State required increase causes any existing employees to become an added expense versus what they contribute (I’m more profitable without them), then I will reduce/eliminate benefits, reduce hours or reduce employees. If that is not sufficient to maintain my profitability level and the public will not accept higher prices then I will fire everyone and relocate out of State or close permanently.
You are exactly correct that I went into business for myself to make a profit for myself, not to create jobs for others. That happens only if I need to and only if it adds to my profit. No one with a brain starts a business to employ others or to lose money. Those ungrateful entitlement minded fools have it easy. An 8 hour day and they are done.
They don’t even understand that a business owner in most cases actually earns less per hour than the employees. My day is a minimum of 12 hours long when you add in all the accounting, inventory and other misc paperwork I must do every day. If I were a restaurateur I would likely be open 7 days a week. That’s a minimum 84 hour work week for the owner and as stated earlier the average take home for the owner after all expenses and personal taxes is less than $30,000 a year. That works out to less than $7 per hour for the owner. Likely the restaurant is actually open for business for a full 12 hours a day. That means the owner is going to be there for a minimum of 14 hours a day. In that case the owner is actually earning less than $6 per hour.
Taking all that into consideration why would any owner take a further cut in profits? At a certain point it is just not worth it to keep the business open. At that point everyone loses. Heck there shouldn’t even be a minimum wage law at all especially when you don’t have a maximum wage cap on CEO’s and other executives. Mom and Pop businesses do not become wealthy. They create the most jobs, but can least afford to do so under current minimum wage requirements. On the other hand no one and I mean no one NEEDS to be paid multimillion dollar compensation packages and that is where large corporations skew it for everyone.
Yes I have, both as an accountant and a business owner, in Seattle. This increase is completely doable. That restaurant in Queen Anne? One of the most expensive neighborhoods in the city. Add a dime to each menu item, no one would notice and the employees won’t show up exhausted from their second job.
A dime? Doubtful that your bonafides have any connection with reality.
Really. Have you ever run a restaurant? The sheer quantity of transactions means you don’t need to double prices or anything drastic to bring in more revenue. Even mr Papa Johns admitted his “astronomic” costs for Obamacare would only add a dime to the cost of a pizza.
Do you know what minimum wage is in Seattle right this second? It’s $9.32, so going to up $11 is not nearly the drastic idea that much of the country believes. We won’t be at $15 until 2017.
Say the place as 10 tables. Adding 25cents to each entree would bring in an additional $20/hour minimum. That covers 8 employees’ increase to $11/hour, including the employers’ taxes. Purely hypothetical of course, but this is NOT an insurmountable hurdle. If they can afford the rent in Queen Anne, they can afford $11/hr employees.
My only point is this is not an insurmountable feat. Do they go out of business every time the cost of milk goes up? What about their property taxes? No, they deal with it like adults.
Hi Julia…yes ignorance is bliss.
No, I have not run a restaurant business, but have extensive management history in small business and for several corporations. I suspect the Papa John’s and Queen Anne’s examples were manufactured by the proponents of the measure as I have seen the same pitch in a number of places…all the reason to be more skeptical about them.
All cost increases have a ripple effect….simple economics. To pretend that such is not the case is to just accept ignorance as the norm. Every tax and regulatory increase is sold on the dollar-a-day principle that vacuum cleaner salesmen used years ago, yet the cumulative effect is staggering. The volume of transactions in a Papa Johns is much different than the average restaurant, so the argument is specious for the average restaurant whether it be the ACA or a minimum wage gamble. Building arguments on best-case scenarios such as full tables and quick turnover does not reflect the average business which at that level and below will be the most affected. You will face a net loss of jobs with this measure without a doubt and little to gain for the supposed beneficiaries of this raise.
Unions provide the power for these changes as many of their contracts are tied to minimum wage indexes, and this is where the impact will be felt the most with increased bond debt, higher taxes, and don’t be surprised when the notion of a personal income tax rears its head once again. The minimum wage earners are used as dupes to drive the union’s greediness whose business has been staggered outside of the public sector. Many of the faithful are also being used to float the banner of fairness and populist hate, but in the end will hopefully realize their mistake.
The implication that those who disagree are children is petty, childish, and illogical. The price of milk is insignificant in the operating costs for a restaurant, but the price of labor is not, so please don’t make arguments that you can’t support and not expect feedback. Adults recognize the truth through experience and knowledge while children merely play at it. Seattle is an embarrassment.
Have you?
The thing is with everyone making a fair wage people in your town can actually afford to shop at your business. Ever wonder why business is so difficult? Because no one has any money to buy the product or service you are trying to sell.
Totally agree! Where does the income taxes come from, the local and state taxes, insurance, ss taxes? These morons believe all you need to do is raise min wage and all will be well. Only one problem, there will be no business that would survive and no new business to open. So… you got your $15.00/hour but no job, no taxes for the state and city to waste, no police force, garbage pick up, transit system and all the other goodies small business pays for. Mr Fooa couple posts up obviously never ran a business and never will.
No, narcissism has been removed from the book of identifiable illnesses since Obama came to office. True story, check it out.
These basic economics-challenged people should read “Atlas Shrugged.”
Don’t the taxes come out of the $15.00 an hour, except for the 7.5% Social Security Employer’s payment, which would be like $1.15, so $16.15 an hour.
No they are an addition to the wages.
“You people think the world owes you and you don’t give a shit about anyone except yourself! I thinks that’s called Narcissism!” No that’s called OBama socialism 101.
Thats what it all boils to they didn’t want to go to school to get what they needed to earn that kind of money now that they will have 15 an hour mic-Ds will charge 12 dollars for a burger and they arent worth what they charge for them now…
Aaron, They can’t just raise the prices. It is a franchise. Mickey D’s tells them what price they can charge. A burger will cost the same in Seattle as it would in Tacoma. Wages will have no effect on the prices of the products.
Uh no. The franchises will not have a sustainable business model and the parent company will have to make accommodations for them to remain on stable footing or watch their regional business suffer. Try logic…its a good thing.
Actually L&I is based on hours worked, not gross wages…..
Had the rate of pay kept up with the cost of living the minimum wage would be $22 an hour. But the rich have been getting richer off the backs of their employees for years. perhaps if you can’t afford to pay your employees a liveable wage you shouldn’t have a business.
Using you logic there would be very few small businesses open. Many are squeaking by. Of course you could always go look for another job. Free country and all.
If prices are high, then solution isn’t raising the min wage but rather lowering it. Don’t really wanna get in the liberal-conservative dog fight, but speaking out of concern for the poorest. Lower costs across will enable more productivity & hence higher affordability.
You need deflation which means the central bank selling bonds to contract the available money in the economy by raising the interest rate, which will not happen since lower prices is a nightmare to them.
“Fair wage” is not the same thing as “I want more money even though my skills, output, or quality have not increased.”
You can tell you are misinformed, uneducated, and unskilled because you atart every rebuttal by swearing. No wonder you call yourself a foo.
Mr. Foo, you need to stop reading fortune cookie.
And just how many in that list are food service workers… That would be a big fat 0.
Why dont you find out first what is causing the rent in Seattle to be so expensive.
Why thats supply and demand…wait a minute…thats not allowed:)
None of these numbers indicate that business should not try to find a way to keep profit margins realistic for survival. The schedule does not matter. Seattle is becoming more expensive, so business will look for more profitable ground.
And ….. you are forgetting the wonderful synergistic effect from Obamacare.
Still. Good luck with that. After all that’s such a huge pile of horse manure there must be a pony in there somewhere. Right?
Foo is NOT stupid! He is willfully, arrogantly ignorant. Bad policy drives out good money. People choose to live in poverty in expensive areas for intangible benefits such as surf or sunsets. Others choose to emigrate from areas suddenly unfriendly to their capital, e.g., the exodus from CA to TX, which is accelerating at this moment. Foo will attack them as capitalist bastards, but exit they will.
Hey Foo here are the facts that your basket weaving degree you earned fail to teach you about simple economics as it relates to the cost of operating a business. One, there isn’t such a thing as “fair share” second “humanity” why do small business owners and entrepreneur put their own money on the line to open businesses? It’s to earn an honest living, your mixing up corporations and small businesses. A small businesses, especially restaurants work on razor thin profit and the wage increases will most assuredly it will be pasted on too the consumers.
What is the current wage is 9.47$ per hour in a 3 year period it will add an additional cost of 58% to the labor cost, each year the cost will be at 16% 2015, 18% 2016,15% 2017, this is not mentioning the additional increase in matching contributions on fed and state taxes along with unemployment contributions being increased. The last consideration to take in account is inflationary increases in cost of goods and services, when one sits back and even has a small child like understanding how the world works it becomes clear this is not going to help in creating wealth or jobs, it will have the reverse effect, all goods and services will naturally go up with the cost of labor, or has this past by you seeing you haven’t analyzed the situation with any great depth or reason.
So please don’t post bs when you have no clue what your talking about!
is this 1900s where you drop out of high school and get a high paying job? no its 2015 and if you want to earn a nice living you go to college and learn something. most minimum wage jobs are for people that want to make extra money and college students not a job you work for the rest of your life. i have a lot of buddies the ones with a college degrees dont struggle for money the ones that dont most of them do. lazy people need to step it up and go learn to do something else like in the medical field bam be making good money once done with college.
No one is trying to make anyone’s life miserable. But applying a “cure” that simply does not work is pointless. Would you also suggest that doctors who do not prescribe bloodletting as a cure for the influenza are “making other people’s lives harder”? If it doesn’t work, then it’s a pointless exercise, and worse, it prevents consideration of other, valid means for improving people’s lot.
Oh wow, one extra year to avoid the shaft…big deal!
Here is the facts that folks like you are not smart enough to grasp: minimum wage labour is UNSKILLED labour. It means they are doing jobs that literally *ANYONE* can do. It is a transition job to something better when the person in question acquires some skills for which they can then move up wage wise. It is not intended to be a permanent gig and part of the motivation to move up when one acquires the skills to is that they can then get a…wait for it…BETTER PAYING JOB. But if you make the minimum wage some ridiculously high and arbitrary amount, that means businesses that can stay in business (albeit with downsized staffs cause newsflash: businesses will not take it in the shorts for this sort of thing) will then only hire *SKILLED* folks for those positions. And voila, you have just screwed over every high school and college kid who has never worked and has no skills from being able to get a job. Why? Because again, NO BUSINESS will pay an unskilled person $15/hr. PERIOD!
This is so simple that only an idiot cannot get it but then again: only idiots are trying to get a $15/hr minimum wage and thinking that it will not wreck havoc in the Seattle job market as a result.
You are the only one trying to impose your will on others. Why should any business owner pay more than they can afford OR more than the employees is worth to the organization?
And where does the money to pay this much more come from?
Nothing but a bunch of touchy-feely gobbledygook. You obviously have no clue about the extent of employer contributions, how worker’s comp is calculated, etc. Why is that Mr. Foo? Perhaps because your vast experience running a business and making all ends meet has mostly been behind the counter pulling the Slurpee lever?
Foo, you’re a prime example of a failed movement. Delusional to the last. Minimum wage jobs are not meant to support a person or family. Raising it will do nothing for anyone except cause inflation. This is an undeniable fact of economics.
This will only work if neighboring localities adopt the same totalitarian communist lunacy.
Just WHERE in the average 4% profit are the restaurateurs supposed to find the extra 6 to 11% to cover labor costs. 4% is SMALLER than either 6 or 11%. Simple math really.
Take your own advice “Mr.Foo” !!!!! You seem to be spouting plenty of specious bullshit yourself!!!
You’re stupid! You really think that isan explanation when all of the adverse selection that is now on the government subsidized (taxpayer funded) insurance hasn’t driven the premiums up so sky-high that saving .50 an hour is making up any “difference? It costs hundreds of dollars per employee per month!
You should open a restaurant and show us how it’s done.
I would not work for $28,000 per year just to own my own business. I tried it and when we, the wife and I kept records we earned .50 per hour each while we paid our employees a wage that was a minimum or higher. I never worked a 40 hour work week either so mr Foo suck it up butter cup because next year will not be any better. I might suggest you make use of the excellent free schooling available in Seattle because you demonstrate a total lack of IQ
It is clear you’ve never operated a business. Get an education if you don’t want a minimum wage. Get marketable skills if you don’t want a minimum wage job. As others have mentioned, the wage isn’t all an employer is paying. It is far higher than what the worker receives. I have a better idea. Why not reduce what the government gets so more could go to the actual employee instead of some inefficient government program? When I opened my first restaurant, I was making FAR LESS than any single one of my employees for several years yet I was viewed as the “rich” business owner. Rich, my rectum.
You want to see the US tax code change in a moment? Have the employees get paid their gross wages and then have to write a check to the government for all the taxes they have to pay as well as the taxes, insurance, etc. the employer has to pay on their behalf (which lowers their wages). Your $15 an hour gross is closer to $20-22 on the employer side yet your actual net (after taxes in closer to $9 an hour. So who is getting more money than you? The GOVERNMENT is likely getting more money from your work than YOU are! Go complain to them, no some small or medium business owner who likely has invested their entire life’s savings to open the business that you are lucky enough to be employed by. First 5 years I ran my business I didn’t make over $20k a year and I was working 80 hours a week or more with no vacation. Do the math and see what I made per hour. After 7 years I said eff it as I was paying more in taxes, fees, etc. than I was making personally. Everyone should have to take business classes in high school to see how things really work. Not all business owners are “evil capitalist pigs”. Many are just like you who invested in a dream.
So what do they pay electrical engineers?
$250K I suspect.
That value would be 21/2 times the average engineer rate in the area. Now 15hr is about the same ratio for toilet scrubber
It’s called sarcasm R and ratios are helpful when an argument needs to work, as opposed to the real relationship between rarity and value.
Allowing people to decide for themselves what agreements for hourly pay they are willing to accept for themselves is the opposite of claiming you know what is good for them.
Where is your humanity for the people who’s skills are worth less than $15/hour? Apparently you would prefer that those people are unemployed.
I find it funny that you said this: “..make other peoples lives harder by claiming you know what is good for everyone.” Considering that is precisely what you are doing by advocating for FORCING business owners to accept a 20% to 40% increase in their labor expense by fiat of the federal government. Hypocrisy is your way, I guess.
Humanity has nothing to do with it fool. It is simple math. When wages are raised, then costs need to be passed on to the customer who is not able to consume as much, therefore reducing revenue. What idiots.
You’re the one who is full of shit. Obviously, you have never run a business but instead rely on the misinformation holier-than-thou political do-gooders spoon feed your sorry, uninformed ass. Where is our humanity? What the hell kind of question is that? You sound like some dumb ass college kid majoring in sociology.
With a son in college at this moment, I am constantly amazed at the stupidity spewing forth from these supposedly learned teachers.
Foo, you are full of economic ignorance. Apparently you just want to make it harder for people to obtain and keep a job in this already extremely difficult climate. Explain to me how that’s helping the middle class and the poor?!?! If they have no job, their minimum wage is zero. Try telling the person who can’t get a job at $15/hr why you want to make it even more difficult for them to get into the workforce and work their way up where they are able to pay a $1500/month apartment rent.
The law of unintended consequences is a cruel teacher, yet a favorite friend of the ideologue.
and yet you presume to know that doubling the price of labor is good for those people trying to run small businesses.
just curious would you support a $100 an hour minimum wage after all $13 an hour isn’t going to pay a mortgage in Seattle
Do you know how to run a calculator?? And why is it businesses responsibility to pay people enough
to live and not the people’s responsibility to live within their means or earn enough to live the way they want too???
Livable wages are in fact a liberal agenda, caused by liberal/democrats raising the cost of living everywhere by requiring the rich to pay for everything such as; more insurance, more regulation, more protections for everyone under them, more liability responsibility, more taxes, more wages… All of that falls on the
consumer and you are a f******g moron if you don’t think so.
I hope these restaurants close in major form, maybe then you will realize that you cannot force everyone to live they way you think they should live you f*****g communist.
You cannot keep adding and adding more and more fees to make people pay for other people. It is a never ending cycle that denies all opportunity for nearly everyone. Learn how to run a calculator and maybe you’ll figure it out before you and your friends destroy every job in this country. Idiot.
That’s economic fascism. Maybe the govt should put out a list of what menu items at the restaurant should cost for you to post on chat room boards?
says the moron who has no idea how payroll is met. a business greatest expense is labor. that 15 doesnt include workmans comp, payroll taxes, etc etc etc. my workmans comp just for myself, 4K/yr
http://money.cnn.com/2013/02/28/smallbusiness/salary-benefits/
dumb and stupid is no way to go through life
These guys hardly ever come into conflict with the knowing. They isolate themselves in groups that agree with each other about everything, yet know little. All hat…no cattle.
Mr Foo is full of Poo.
Notice how fast the liberal troll loses his temper and starts using foul language. Socialists are violent morons.
Yo foo. You obviously don’t understand basic mathematics principles.
I’m not saying I disagree with this wage schedule, since I’m not from Seattle I don’t have a dog in this fight, but I just want to point out that a mandated wage floor is the very definition of someone claiming they know what is good for everyone and then imposing it as the law of the land.
U have no idea what yur talking about as a business owner having ran companies most of my career. You have no idea of labor burden, insurances, overhead or profit margins your post is a liberal hack job. #dontknowshit
You like to use the word “shit” a lot. Your inability to express yourself and the ideas you post show what a moron you are.
And guess what. People on fixed income, like social security or VA disability, have been practically stagnant since Obama became prez! How are they supposed to increase their income to compensate for, not just food workers, but everythings going up!
Raise their COLAS no doubt, and then raise SS taxes and limits no doubt. The never-ending train to disaster, yet at least we can “feel good” about ourselves for a few years until the next crisis.
If something cost more, (labor) you have to charge more to afford it (menu prices) If people have to pay more to afford the new menu prices they have to make more money by demanding more for the services they provide. If they own property your rent will go up, if they work for an auto shop it’ll cost more to get your car fixed. In few years a fair wage will be $22.00 an hour and the cycle will begin again.
The whole argument of the left is based on an unrealistic view of profit and the class warfare envy of success. Guaranteed outcomes are only fantasies to those who don’t understand reality.
I don’t know about you, but most of the terms the ideologies use don’t mean what they think they do.
And that keeps businesses open how?
Did you get it from Missing Hillary’s emails?
mr foo – actually, mr magoo would be more appropriate given your ignorance of basic economics – unless you have signed the FRONT of a paycheck, your stoner ramblings are incoherent nonsense to those of us who have. to the rest of the civilized world, your delusional rant is nonsense to anyone with working neurons.
now, mommy is calling you for your bath. GO!
I don’t get how this is such a difficult concept to understand….
1. People bitch about not being able to afford anything.
2. A company/business is forced to raise the pay.
3. That company/business raises prices of goods/services so they can afford to pay that raise.
~repeat~
Mr. Foo, I would ask *you* where is *your* humanity? Where is your intelligence?
Imagine you and I own a fast-food restaurant. We pooled all our money (say $200K) to start the business. We have an average of 20 people working in the store 24×7 (a total team of say 100). Adding $5/hr to their wages raises costs $2400 per day (($5/hr *20 people) * 24 hours = $2400). That does *not* include increased payroll taxes and such.
That’s over $73,000 per month and $876,000 per year of increased costs. The very best fast-food restaurants bring in $2.5M per year, so let’s say you and I are good enough to make $2M – then the “fair wage” just increased our costs by 50% of our total revenue!!!
Where does the money come from to pay that $876K per year?
Do we raise prices 50% plus? Do we buy cheaper food? Fire people? Speaking of humanity, tell us Mr. Foo, how do we stay in business and keep paying our 100 employees at least something as well as put food on our own tables and pay rent for our own families?
You tell us Mr. childish name-caller, how do we pay nearly a million dollars more per year in costs when at best, we can only make $2M?
Because his political masters said so and those bereft of clarity of thought only believe those things that support their religious beliefs.
I notice you say “large employers”…..most if not all of the restaurants are NOT “large employers!….Mcdonalds mabe, but even they are franchised and those who own them pay a majority of their earning for franchise fees! The mom and pop diners and restaurants will fail. A fair wage is ok, but $15/hr is too much to pay non skilled workers!
Mr.Fool,I mean Foo,you can rant and rave all you want but the facts are what they are,read the damn article. Many businesses are closing down because of the raises and the ones left will raise their prices.When the prices are raised,fewer people will patronize the restaurants,fewer people mean layoffs!!!!!
It’s all relative. If you pay someone $15/hr to do a $10/hr job (50% more than they’re worth), then you have to pay the skilled worker making $15 right now 50% more. Otherwise, why would a skilled worker keep working their job if they could make just as much doing easy jobs. All this does is drive up inflation.
Very true simply because the worker making only slightly more will consider switching to the job making less that requires less work, less stress, and less hours.
“Get some skills” Just go get em eh?? Your over simplification shows your intelligence. You should be ashamed of yourself. Seriously.
Stuck on stupid…
Those minimum wage jobs that you abhor are suppose to be where people gain skills for better jobs later in life. The ones who stay on minimum wage forever are either completely stupid or have absolutely no ambition to better themselves. With the online classes, pay as you go classes, and financial aide for those who are poorer, there is no excuse for anyone to not be able to. Minimum wage for minimum skills. Want more money? Find a way to learn skills to earn more. I had to work my way up, why can’t everyone else?
Katy: You have described what people can do if they are reasonably smart and ambitious. But, if they are stupid and earning minimum wage for life, what should they do about their “stupidity”? Can you be smarter than you already are? I can’t. Do you think they can?
Stupid people should just be poor apparently.
Or stupid people should go on welfare?
If a stupid person is willing to work and not be on welfare they should be able to at least make a living wage.
Those that can leverage their experience will do so.
Those of us that are smart, well exucated clever etc need to make a decision
1) are we willing to pay a bit more for luxury and convenience ( like eating at a swanky restaraunt or getting take out instead of eating at home by cooking ) or
2) do we want to pay welfare, which comes out of taxes we pay, to support employees of establishments that do not pay a living wage
Specious argument…and the educated and clever part is as well. Logical fallacies such as the either/or are often used by ideologues to support shaky thought. This is neither educated nor clever.
I guess that the only problem is that the living wage is a baseless fantasy and pretty much denies the rest of the argument.
Stupid people ARE poor by the very nature of being stupid.
What they can do, and government should do, is to take away from the military budget and invest in infrastructure, then take these life long minimum wage earners and train them to build and repair it.
Uhhh…. National safety and security are the number one priority for our Federal gov’t so howzabout taking money from someplace ELSE where it’s being spent by these braintrusts in gov’t., as in the 900K spent on cowboy poetry in Nevada thanks to Hairy Reed or the doll museum in Texas funded by the gov’t or any of the other wastes of money we are all aware of (studying the sex lives of insects, etc.) as well as those we don’t even know about
“You can’t fix stupid” – whether it be the people who don’t have the necessary skills/attitude to make a decent living or the government people who make decisions such as this.
Part of your value are your innate strengths, yet many can be overcome to some extent when focused in certain ways. No doubt you have met people that reach the Einstein level who have been very successful because they used the talents they have in valuable ways.
Ah, the typical justification for keeping minimum wage low. Fact is a large amount of the poor barely survive on minimum wage. They’ve been stuck at the same jobs for years now. You really think employers really want to give employees a promotion/raise when they don’t have to?
yes, absolutely if the person is deserving of it!! If the employee is good that makes the employer more money so the employer will want to give him/her a raise so they can keep that valuable employee.
There are many avenues to advance yourself, and yes, employers really do give promotions and raises. I’ve received them many times.
http://profoundlydisconnected.com/foundation/
Magical thinking is phun!
Money comes out of thin air!
If I put blinders on, nothing else happens out of my sight!
You do realize, don’t you, that if these people who can’t seem to make more than minimum wage had bothered to pay attention while in school, had had the right attitude about learning and succeeding, they probably wouldn’t be stuck making minimum wage now, would they.
Specious argument based on logical fallacies.
Online and pay as you go, please. You could completely learn a tech job on youtube and treehouse for $25 a month, then go freelance on 99 designs or similar sites to build your portfolio. It can and has been done, it just takes perseverance and determination.
A lot of sympathy there for people of limited intelligence or who actually might have a mental disability. But then, you’re obviously a conservative, so I understand that this is your version of Christian charity.
Thanks for playing with hatred and bigotry. Name calling from a basis of ignorance and presumption. Must make momma proud.
Yes. People have been doing it since the dawn of time. i know I got tired of doing things like washing boats at a marina or emptying bed pans in a nursing home when I was young, and found a construction company that would pay me to pick up trash and sweep out their jobs. They started me a dollar an hour over minimum, and after a year I made 3 over. Today I’m a tradesman and earn a good living. I’m not exceptional; if anything, I’m gloriously average. You should be ashamed of arguing for limitations in the poor. It is soft bigotry at best.
you should be ashamed of taking people’s livelihoods from them
Too funny Mr. Foo. Thy name is irony.
And what happens when everyone get those skills? Those jobs would pay minimum wages. All you are doing is crawling your way in front of other wages, not really solving the problem of underpaid menial employees.
By getting a job that pays the bills, you mean a job of sitting on your butt in an office as an administrator, accountant, IT Tech, HR rep, or some other management or office position. Great! Now take all that expertise and pay your bills when you have nobody actually doing the work that gives you a reason for your cushy job of sitting in the A/C with carpeting and a desk. Pushing a pencil doesn’t get the job done! LABORERS get the job done! Get your nose out of the air and actually get some dirt under your nails before you tell someone to get skills! Can you weld the structure of the office building you work in? Can you fix the problem with the engine of the Mercedes you drive and have to lower yourself to taking the bus when it doesn’t start for you? Can you even clean your own house without having a housekeeper or maid do it for you? These are real skills that should be appreciated and paid as much or more than those that keep bankers hours with hour long lunches and free corporate transportation! People with your attitude can’t hold a candle to THE WORKING STIFF!
A fantasy of the left Scott. I worked ditches, fast food, and other situations that required “LABORERS” while making myself more valuable to employers. Those jobs taught me that workers do not make it happen but are only tools in the hands of skilled businesspeople and that I had no intention of leaving myself so few options. Without the businesses to work for, the ideas and motivation that drive them, and the leadership skill to organize them, these LABORERS would be milling about the street with no significant purpose. When one of them rises up and organizes the others to focus their energies, then his value rises as a manager and will gain him more benefit (but then you’ll just call him a suit and berate him due to envy). I have pulled so many people up from the working stiff category by allowing them to show their full potential over the years that there is little doubt this is true.
Your examples are inconsistent as some are skilled, and some are not. An auto mechanic these days requires significant skill while a housekeeper does not, and their pay reflects the difference in economic value. The working stiff has his place and there will always be a need, but true value is not dictated by dirt under the fingers. The other favorite people to hate that you mention have gained that value through the benefits they add to their organizations. You truly need to understand how that is so before embarrassing yourself with the tired 60’s cliches and union propaganda.
Excellent point about an auto mechanic requiring significant skills! So the mechanic should be paid significantly more than the person that sits at the desk and directs the customers to the skilled mechanic that can repair the vehicle that the “suit” can’t! That mechanic can give the customer their personal phone number and address and tell them he will do the job for far less when he gets off the clock. The customer wins by paying less and the mechanic gets paid more because the “suits” aren’t skimming the profits of the “skilled laborer”. Many of them do it as have I. LABORERS are “TOOLS IN THE HANDS OF SKILLED BUSINESS-PEOPLE”? A “HOUSEKEEPER DOES NOT REQUIRE SIGNIFICANT SKILLS”? What an “ARROGANT and SNOBBISH” comment to make! Are teachers “tools in the hands of the skilled business people that run the schools that that these teachers taught them to run? This is just one example. Why should the president of a university be paid more than the teachers who taught them to get their job in the first place? “UNION PROPAGANDA”? Unions were created to keep arrogant people like you from demanding that the working man be forced to do what they are not hired to do! Businesses want people to do the jobs of those that are paid more than them for lower wage they are being paid. Are you sure you aren’t a politician?
‘Scuse me? Are you under the impression that being cook requires no skills? Come work in my kitchen for a day. I guarantee you’ll change your outlook.
Well then perhaps I’ll just go out and get a couple hundred thousand dollar loan for college… That will fix everything right? Indebted servitude on a college gamble using taxpayer funding?
Sure, go to college to get better skills on WHAT MONEY? Higher education isnt free. And unless you are a single mother or a minority you dont qualify for loans and grants. Telk me, how is one supposed to better themselves when they work at a wage where they barely make rent and utilities?
you show massive ignorance with that statement. far too many people CAN’T gain the skills because they are in such horrible economic situation, most often out of their own control as well, that college is not even an option. you cannot fault people who cannot get ahead for not getting ahead. its like accusing a cripple for being lazy.
Unfortunately more often than not just an excuse and probably indicative of your moniker.
Where does one get said skills? Do they drop out of the sky? You try working at $8/hr to support yourself while learning a new trade.
I know several people with certificates and degrees, still stuck working minimum wage jobs. That doesn’t mean you don’t deserve a little dignity, or the ability to both eat and pay rent in the same month, or gawd forbid, set some money aside for emergencies.
Who will wait tables? Who will cook in fine dining establishments? I wait tables in Oregon. And I have split my tips with the Kitchen Staff? Out of control.. Owners don’t want to pay. So? Get out of business. It isn’t hurting anyone really. For everyplace that shuts down there will be extra customers in places that stay open. And I am a career waiter. I don’t work for min wage. I average around 14 an hour. But I still have to tip salaried employes? Just not right
People tend to greatly choose their life and yet constantly complain they have no control and want others to change instead to benefit them.
Then the restaurants will close anyway. Don’t you understand someone has to flip burgers if you want to eat at a burger joint?
Arty G, you are oversimplifying the problem. One of my best friends has a college education and is working a minimum wage job. No jobs in her field of study are available in the area. To afford a 2 bedroom apartment on minimum wage would require working 80 hours a week in virtually every part of the US.
Which begs the question…why are so many going to college without the realization of the outcome? Society spends a great deal of energy selling college as the only way to “success” and ensures registration through billions of dollars of loans that will remain unpaid without adding significant value in most cases. Too many colleges are graduating piles of students with “education” in areas that have little transferrable value.
The apartment comment fails because minimum wage jobs are not meant to support a fully independent lifestyle and never will. Get roommates, live with family, or find an alternative while making yourself more valuable.
You have to make a living while getting those skills, dummy. If you can’t pay your bills and rent from the low paying job, how the HELL do you expect someone to go to school and get those skills?
The only dummy I see is YOU!
If there is a will there is a way!……
Get two jobs and study at night, get diploma over the internet!
You sound like one lazy BUM
Hey genius. Are you saying people don’t do this EVERY DAY? What a buffoon.
Yes, but that requires work, effort, drive, concentrating…..much easier to spew prepared talking points and looking for what THE WORLD and the Wealthy owe you to equalize inequality!
Someone has to do unskilled work – and those who labor for us in the most basic ways also deserve a living wage … the consequence of not making sure they are paid enough to live on is a burden on society in the form of food stamps, housing and health care subsidies.
So just a thought, if we redistribute the wealth in a perfect world and guide the federal subsidies away from the “poor'” then what is the net effect on the economy? Hmmm…not so brilliant huh. No wait, I am sure the feds will lower taxes to compensate…lol.
The living wage is a fluffy lie M/J/ When you pay people more than they are economically worth, you have many unintended consequences, and the people you claim to help will receive little.
I live in Vancouver, Canada. Everyone needs to get their heads out of their asses and realize that you can’t just go get skills and land a job either in Canada or America. The jobs need to be there first. On top of that, employers are just being cheap bastards. While they are living in their multimillion dollar houses, everyone working for them are barely making more than enough to stay away from food banks. HTF is that fair living. Its not. Our minimum wage here is hitting $10.45/hr in September. No one here can afford to live with bills going up in price every month. The cost of food and rents are going up as well.
I can see why you have your moniker because solid argument is rather alien to you. Love the stereotypes and generalities as well. Funny how people are making it regardless of those price increases, yet the class envy never ends.
How do you expect people to go to college when they have to work 40 hours a week to barely get by. How are they supposed to pay and make time to go? What if they have kids? How do they pay for daycare? There are many layers to this issue, “go get some skills” is a moronic.
College is a poor argument as most people shouldn’t waste their time, but there are many other avenues such as trades and self-employment that are better roads for most. So yes…get some skills, whether it be from volunteerism, education, or experience, and stop making excuses.
You didn’t read article at all, did you? Please tell me how your wishes can change the match.
He likely believes unicorns fart glitter, which is used to fertilize the money trees.
But they do.
And the money trees give off that much more money.
Twice as much as they would if unicorns didn’t exist.
1.FAIR is what two people agree upon,and not what you have to do to stay out of jail.
2.People can’t spend money twice. More money on food means less on everything else, OR the same on everything else and less eating out.
You need to advocate for a $50 an hour minimum wage, that would solve everything I think.
$86,000.00 annually for an entry level position at McDonalds? Really?? You must have gone to public schools.
Lol these people can’t even grasp basic economics. Ask them why not have a 100 dollar an hour minimum wage…. what about 1,000 dollars an hour? Pick some arbitrary number they probably STILL wont figure out why that’s a bad idea haha
I do believe he was being facetious.
Typical from a useful idiot communist piece of s**t that doesn’t goddamn thing about economics!
You guys need to actually read what I wrote in response to Mr.Foo, then you need to think about its actual meaning in regards to what he said.
Some of us ‘got it’ and wholeheartedly agree with you. Comments such as those written by some on here show they really don’t read the words in a post, they simply react in a partisan manner and in doing so, give us Conservatives who actually understand the issue a bad rap. Keep on keepin’ on.
You act like there is an unlimited amount of money to go around! If you put more money in one person’s pocket, you take it out of another one’s. Unlike the federal government, citizens just can’t print money. If wages are $10/hour and you employ 3 people, and you force them up to $15/hour, only 2 people are going to be employed! Yes, 2 people might have it slightly better, but the other one is screwed. AND THAT, is what raising the minimum wage, AND OBAMACARE, has done!
On a large scale, you’d be part right. Raising the min wage will allow for a larger income base. Unfortantely the only entities large enough to absorb the additional expense are large corps. So, you want to eat at the family diner down the road….sorry, go get Dennys or IHOP. That really good steakhouse downtown, oops it’s gone, better go to Outback. Hell, I’m happy that Seattle is committing tourist suicide by killing it’s small businesses. Maybe Jimmy Graham will come back to NOLA to get some real food
You don’t pay people more money simply because they want it, or need it, or even because it’;s a good idea. You pay them more because that’s what the market demands. Simply mandating higher wages when the labor being purchased by the employer does not add any more value. Every industry finds it’s own level of wage equilibrium. A finbisgh carpenter of a tile setter may earn 25 or 30 dollars an hour or more, because it takes years to learn and not just anyone an od it. A food server can learn their trade in a maonth or two, and are a lot more easily replaced.
Personal;y I thinks any minimum wage is unnecessary. if some employer wants to offer two dollars an hour, fine. Let’s see if he can get anyone to take it, or live with the people who do. I know in my trade, you couldn’t get an apprentice for under 15 dollar an hour. That’s the market in the trade.
No one is going to have “extra money to spend” making minimum wage, unless making extra money is why they’re doing it to begin with.But when the 10 dollar ah hour burger flipper sees his wage go to 15, but then realizes his employer (who actually pays closer to 18 after workers comp and unemployment insurance) is cutting his hours or laying others off. It will also give him a temporary boost until all the other goods and services of the city have to bump their prices to cover their employees raises, at which point the burger flipper’s 15 dollars an hour is going to be about like his 10 dollars an hour was before, an he’ll be demanding 20 or 25. Meanwhile, what added value does he bring to the table to justify the employer paying him more? Is he generating more business? Since the prices will surely raise, it is doubtful. Is he working any harder or smarter than he did before? In what way is he making the business owner more profitable?
Here’s something else to consider: every time the minimum wage rises, everyone else making more than that gets a pay cut. Why? because of the higher costs the minimum wage creates. I make well above minimum wage. And lastly, paying that burger flipper 15 dollars an hour only encourages him to stay in a minimum wage job that much longer. rather than using low wages as a motivator for self improvement and learning a more marketable skill. This gums up the works for new immigrants, parolees and teens entering the work force for the first time trying to get entry level jobs.
Exactly. This is what happens with Union contracts and wage increases. Union wages only works if the rest of the economy is operating on a market basis. Otherwise the Union worker would have to pay other Union workers inflated wages.
Unions are all about being parasites on the business they have latched onto and the community they’ve found a home in.
Look at any of the areas that used to be large Union strongholds. They’re mostly Democrat run and they’re mostly in debt with pensions for government workers bringing them to their knees and soon to bankruptcy. But the Unions still won’t budge. They’d rather see it all crumble than take a pay cut. Ask the folks in the Steel Industry. Oh wait. You can’t because most of them got driven out of business by Union contracts, Union strikes and Union benefits so they were uncompetitive and they went belly up or reduced and mechanized their manufacturing.
The majority of Unions today are government unions and they’re driving the taxpayers out of the cities and states where they’ve run rampant.
Let’s elect Walker to do for DC what he did for Wisconsin and see how the economy turns around with fewer parasites sucking the life blood out of the system.
Less than 3% of American Workers are in Unions. And yet you beat the same ole tired drum. Idiots.
Dusty…thy name is irony.
This is why most union power is centered in the public sector because wage and benefit inflation is covered through taxes and corruption. Something no business could compete with.
People like you are why the oil companies raise the price of gasoline when they have more oil than at anytime in our history. You barely finished high school right? Nothing even resembling a degree economics related right? I’m pro gun, anti illegal, pro workfare, anti welfare. I am not a liberal. However I do understand Capitalism which you obviously do not. You clearly support corporate Welfare. That’s not capitalism. That’s Feudalism. I Burger flipper in Australia makes 15.00 an hour. And the overall price of a McDonald’s Menu in Australia is slightly less expensive than the menu in Southern California. You really should know something about what you’re talking about.
Hey Dusty…remember that old drum you talk about so much…snicker. Guess it only matters if the drum belongs to someone you disagree with. I do have an Economics degree BTW and your McDonalds argument has been passed around the liberal rags along with the Walmart nonsense for a long time so I doubt your claims about political affiliation greatly. The burger flippers do not make $15/hr in Australia because most of their workers are exempt from the minimum wage laws due to their age. Australia is also one of the leaders in automating fast food service to reduce workforces along with Europe to keep prices down displacing the previously employed. The cost of such food is also higher in Australia by a bit regardless of what HuffPo says, but keep on crowing about what you know little about. Never use ideological rags and OpEd pieces as proof sources if you don’t want laughter in response.
Tax revenues are the largest beneficiary of gas prices, but we still beat the oil companies which are public corporations owned by thousands of entities. Yes, lets keep raising the very taxes paid proportionately by the poorer citizens and blame it on oil companies. Make the “rich” pay most of the Federal taxes and the half that pay none at all get to complain about them. When will these angry children ever learn.
You heartless monster
How can you let people make less money per hour, when they really really want it to be more?
Think of the children!
They won’t make rent on $0 per hour either. In case you didn’t read the article, a restaurant taking in $700,000 a year only makes a profit of $28,000 for the owner. That’s not the “billions” that they accuse business owners of “stealing”. Basic math doesn’t seem to be a strong point for a lot of policymakers nowadays…
And a $15/hour employee would make $31,200 per year, plus health insurance plus unemployment insurance.
Amazing how the employer will wind up working for the employee, paying him more than he will make himself as the owner and risk taker of the enterprise.
Amazing.
Having run several small businesses in California and for several large corporations in executive roles, I think too many have no clear idea of the reality of business, yet clamor on as if they did.
Small businesses in most sectors are very difficult to manage and prosper from. Growth is difficult due to regulatory and financial regulation and dwindling margins. There is no economy of scale in most businesses so material costs don’t give you much advantage in a price-point market, and labor costs for a legitimate business will march your prices out of range. Too many people will hire the unskilled to do a crappy job for a little less money and spend their days rationalizing the outcome. How ironic that we argue about wages and complain about prices at the same time.
The best benefits major corporations have is the ability to weather storms more easily and spread their downside risk. Small businesses usually just founder and sink. I know many business owners who personally sink financially while keeping their employees afloat, so the generalizations are laughable.
This is the real world and not socialist la la land. Raising the minimum wage to $15 only works out in socialist la la land, but not so well in the real the world.
If only that scum were more like you. Then we’d all be as happy as you are.
PS: ‘Socialist la la land’ makes me giggle.
And who decides if a wage is “fair”? The Government? And what is it about restaurant workers that entitle them to a living wage? Seems to me that if you cannot afford an apartment by yourself, you go find someone looking for a room mate, and share the rent. That is called living within your means. I have little sympathy for those poor depressed waiters who can’t find anything else to do other than than wait tables, but expect to have a living standard on par with a veteran electrical engineer working at Boeing. Perhaps if they knew how to do something more useful, like residential electrical work, or plumbing (neither of which requires a college degree, and earn good money), they wouldn’t be living hand to mouth.
Well, they got their government mandated minimum wage, just like they wanted. And now, they get to deal with the consequences. Consequences they were warned would happen by those opposed to it. But did they listen? Oh hell no, they had to Stick It To The Man™.
Great answer Mark. People should watch a few of the black and white movies back before there was government handouts, minimum wages, and easy credits. Friends shared an apartment. Children stayed home until older but unlike the ones who do it today they were saving for a home and future or helping with the family finances until they became more successful. They had pride in any job they were doing and earned every penny. Today people think they’re OWED a living and that they DESERVE nice things just because that’s what they want. The truth is we are not owed anything by society and we deserve whatever we can legally earn with our bodies and minds.
When in comes to people waiting tables, and I was one many years ago, I honestly don’t understand why all the fuss about minimum wage. Sure, we were paid less than minimum wage, but our tips MORE than made up for it. After a four hour shift at a family restaurant in St. Paul, it wasn’t uncomomon to take home more than $150.00 in tips – back in 1976! My Mother was a waitress after she left us in the early 60s and made enough income to buy her own home. She had a decent life as do most others who do such work. Those who didn’t make the tips were the sort who either didn’t like people or couldn’t get it together enough to do the job and it showed at the end of the day. Minimum wage should be ZERO!
Minimum wage hurts young black people the worst. Fact. Which means you’re just another bigot. Stupid racist.
You can’t be serious…..math is not your strong suit.
Mr. Foo who are you to advocate the guns of government be aimed at peaceful people? Who are you to determine what is “fair”? If 2 people voluntarily negotiate a wage who are you to point guns at them to say nope ” I say” it’s not fair? Mind your own business it’s people like you these busy bodies who can’t just go about their life without getting involved in the affairs of other people via “the government” which is the most immoral and irresponsible way to solve problems. You advocate economic fascism if you want the government to control wages. Before you start calling me a republican i’m anti politics and anti initiation of force. I’d be delighted to discuss philosophy and morals as well as ethics. All I’m saying is economic reality is absent your emotional filled response. Minimum wage is a one size fits all socialist policy that interferes with the free and voluntary negotiation between employer and potential employee. If someone’s wage is not worth “x” amount of dollars the company is wasting its money that could be used for some other expense from within said company. There’s no magical button you can push that can make a small business magically come up with capital so they can afford expenses this is something those who advocate for economic fascism fail to understand. You’re hurting the little guy and making it hard for poor people to get a job. If someone was with a company for a long time and they have earned said wage overtime do you think it’s moral for you to aim the guns of government so that new people get hired for that same wage as the person with the company for many years? This is akin to communism because now what incentive does that person who has been there for many years have to work harder if some new people can get hired in 1 day and make what he earned throughout the years on day 1….?
I’ll just ignore most of what you said but please tell me just how cheap foreign cars are, a?
Except paying people a fair wage is a conservative issue because fair is what both parties agree to. An unfair wage would be one that people are forced to pay and some people would have to close their businesses because of it.
“at 9.52 (current minimum wage) people are slaves.”
No, they are not. To say that is utterly pathetic.
People who make minimum wage are employees of *minimal value*. Slaves are bought and sold, they have (note present tense because there are many, many slaves in the world today) no agency, they have no ability to improve their lot through study and practice, it matters not what they do, until their owner chooses to free them (or someone with guts and morals does it) they are slaves.
A minimum wage employee has agency and choice. They can chose to make their lot in life better, or they can choose to spend it on cheap wine and sin (to borrow a phrase from TSOL).
4 times in 11 years my wife worked her way up from a shit entry level job (copy operator, receptionist, Customer Service Rep (twice)) to “middle class” positions, just by being on time, clean, and working hard. Her last job (before deciding she wanted to stay home with the baby) was QA team lead for a moderately successful web company. She did this within 3 years of starting at the company as a “customer service representative”.
Minimum wage was never designed or intended to be a “living wage” for head of families, it was intended to be a baseline for entry level workers. As you raise that minimum wage you price minimally skilled and minimally competent workers out of the market and make it harder and harder for them to get the skills they need to make *more* than minimum wage.
Then people like you demand redistributionist policies to “care” for the people you’ve made it impossible to employ.
or simply reduce everyones wages. Businesses will have less labor cost and will lower their prices so that people can buy more. There, see how it works!
So you are right and all the restaurants and auditors are wrong. I take it you haven’t been around much. Raise the salaries, = raise the menu prices outrageously =less people can afford to go out to eat and it’s already showing in Seattle and that is a math problem. Something has got to give. These restaurants WANT to stay in business and have been working at it for a year. Many are small businesses, mom and pop cafes and they can’t pay that kind of salary and still make a profit to live on, they have to live to. Mom and Pop restaurants barely make it now, no one is getting rich by any means. We already have the highest minimun wage in the country. Working in fast food was never to be a career, it’s a step towards a career. Read the article by clicking on the picture, way too many financial businesses are weighing in on this. Many of these people working in fast food dropped out of school, many of them. They need to get educated so they can get a better paying job. Fast food jobs were for high school students as part time for play money, they graduate and the next group of high school students step in and do this over and over again. Some continue to stay on and not further their education and that is the problem, it should be a revolving door, not a career.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkodTydUR0E
So with businesses closing, where will these $15/hr jobs be?
Everything you wrote would imply you did not read the article. It’s a math problem, not political.
When you say “fair wage”, just what do you mean? I admit that $15 per hour is not a great wage, but if it is the Minimum wage, that puts the cost of having a kid do clean up and bus tables out of reach for a lot of outfits. You seem to overlook the definition of Minimum, also. But don’t presume I don’t empathize with folks who have a tough time finding rewarding work. But I also feel that having some job is better than having no job at all. If you focus only on large businesses that may be able to more easily absorb the added cost and reduced profit you may make a valid argument, but the local operations will suffer, transferring cost to the larger business operations, inspiring the company to reduce burden by eliminating your local presence in many cases. This story focuses on the dining industry. Looking at the process, from farm, to processor, to distributor, to restauranteur, to table, every step of “locally produced” fresh food will experience an increase in cost. Suppliers who operate outside of Seattle will be favored over locals, reducing their business clientele at the same time that their own labor expenses increase. It doesn’t matter what schedule you apply, because there is not a commensurate climate change occurring in competing economic environments that offer better return on investment and reduced operational expenses.
Whine about the complaints from the business owners if you like. But the examples of businesses leaving Seattle should not be ignored. This is a politically induced hardship that has an economic answer. The problem is going to be the suffering of those who are underemployed becoming unemployed and becoming a greater burden on the public support system. That system will experience (possibly) a reduced tax base because of a less robust business environment and fewer tax dollars to spend on the benefit programs that the folks put out of work by the reaction of business to the new policy.
Did you not read the article? If restraints close down, reduce hours, or fire workers how does this help anyone? You’ll end up with fewer jobs at fewer hours.
Hmm… seems like Mr. Foo’s last name must be Lish. My restaurant has been open 29 years. Minimum wage was $3.35 at that time, and I could afford to start people at $5.00. The problem with raising the minimum, is that it takes money out of the pockets of those who would seek to better themselves by gaining skills or taking on more responsibility. When I opened, there was a $6.00 range between the lowest paid hourly employee and the highest paid hourly employee. By the time minimum wage reached $4.75, I had to go ahead and start people at that to be able to keep my better employees at a higher rate. As the minimum has been raised, the range has shrunk. Now the range is less than $1.50. Because CA’s $9.00 minimum costs me $11.48 per hour to pay. Yup, with taxes, insurance, and other costs that are directly tied to payroll. That’s just minimum. $15 an hour would cost so close to $20 as to be completely ridiculous as a minimum wage. Workers need to generate value that is commiserate with their hourly pay, otherwise you are running a charity and not a business. Government mandated raises without regard for market conditions are for communist regimes, not the USA. Uneducated people (like Mr. Foo) who vote are the real problem. Please retake Economics 101, open your own business, or at least read Ayn Rand’s “The Fountainhead” (which explains how raising the lowest paid workers comes right out of the pockets of those just above them better than I can in a one paragraph post).
You can’t pay people more than their productivity is worth. It’s simple economics. The article clear shows how thin the margins are in the restaurant business and this minimum wage hike makes labor more expensive than it’s contribution to the establishments operations.
If an employee can do the work that 21/2 other people were doing before, then sure raise the rates. But it appears a lot of businesses with tight margins are unable to achieve the productivity gains needed to afford the higher wages.
I’m surprised retail stores aren’t being affected as well, or are they?
Minimum wages are for those who need to enter the workforce with their first employment. There are going to be a lot of people in Seattle who would like to earn a bit of money, develop work skills and experience and demonstrate a track record of steady employment to a future who will offer higher wages to a better more skilled employee who is more productive, but won’t be able to find it.
Unfortunately the first rungs on that ladder will be pulled further upwards and out of reach of those seeking entry level employment. It will stay that way until inflation catches up with the high minimum wage and erode the value back down to the worth of the productive effort of the minimum wage job.
Unless of course you want people trying to break into the work place to take unpaid internships in order to gain the experience and references they need to impress a future employer.
You really are SHORT SIGHTED aren’t you… you can argue this bullshit all you want.. but in the end, we have WARNED you what is going to happen.. what is ALREADY happening. When the shit is in piles around your feet, WHAT are you going to say THEN idiot?
You don’t know what you’re talking about. Businesses will raise their prices to cover the increased labor costs. Higher prices will dissuade people from purchasing; and then some businesses will close. Not all of them will close; but some will. That’s the economic reality. You can’t just wish it away.
marxists care about people like pedophiles care about children. Mr. Poo will move on when this crashes and burns and do it all over again with something else. Cloward-Piven.
How are the restaurant operators supposed to pay a “fair” wage for others to spend if doing so puts them out of business, meaning NO ONE gets paid, period. What a moron.
The minimum wage is not only absolutely, positively, a 100% liberal / leftist idea, it’s been proven time and again to hurt the poorest among us and the economy in general.
Minimum wage is just that- MINIMUN. It is an entry level job. Where people develop their work ethics and improve themselves so they can move on to a better job.
You haven’t completely thought this through:
1) Minimum wages increase, minimum wage workers have more money. Undeniably true.
2) Prices for goods and services that utilize minimum wage employees will increase to compensate.
3) Goods and services that do not directly utilize minimum wage employees will see the increase in the goods and services that they do utilize. That is, every industry will eventually feel some impact, even if they do not directly employ minimum wage workers.
4) The entire cost of living will increase to absorb the cost differential.
5) The minimum wage employee will discover that, while he has more cash in his wallet, everything around him eventually becomes either more expensive or of lesser quality.
6) Eventually the economy will reach equilibrium and the minimum wage worker will be no better off than he was before the wage hike, since the cost of living increase will cancel out the pay raise.
7) The overall economy will, however, be worse off, since the local economy does not exist in a vacuum: it must compete with economies in other cities and states. This means that some industries will move away, harming the local economy. Further, automation that may have not made economic sense previously will suddenly become more viable, so some jobs will be lost forever (e.g. automated checkout at grocery stores).
Other economics interventions may either increase or decrease this effect, which makes it impossible to empirically measure this effect (like trying to judge side-effects of a particular medication in a person being overmedicated), but it’s basic economic theory: if the cost of manufacturing goes up, so does the price. Purchasing power, and therefore quality of life, decrease in proportion to the cost of living.
So wait, if paying higher wages is a boost to overall economic activity, always, without question, then let’s make the minimum wage $1000/hr! Everybody wins. People will have all that extra money to spend, and businesses will just have to adjust. Why not? What’s the downside? Can you articulate what the downside is? No? Ok, then let’s make it $10,000/ hr. Even better!
Doesn’t more money in circulation mean inflation?
““On an average basis, inflation in the first 12 months following an initial minimum-wage hike was 1.3 percentage points higher year-over-year. After two years, inflation was 2.5 percentage points higher. And when I look at just the years in which the minimum wage rose more than 20% – as is the case this time around – the inflation rate spiked sharply by the second year.” 3 – See more at: http://www.dailypfennig.com/2014/07/13/higher-minimum-wages-lead-inflation/#sthash.HJyp1w30.dpuf
Producing wealth by legal decree is a myth. There will be winners and there will be losers. And you can bet it’s not going to be the wealthy that will be the losers.
Rents in Seattle are high because so much of it is considered prime real estate. That’s true of any city. It’s also why my family, making considerably *more than min wage, *don’t own or rent* in Seattle and don’t have any lake front property either. Making $15 hourly doesn’t make $1500 in rent “affordable”, genius. What it does do is put more people out of work or business and increase the costs you just gone done bitching about.
Mr. Foo – here’s a craigslist search of over 4000 listings under $1000/ month. You sir, are uninformed.
You seem to think it’s not a zero-sum game, but actually it is. You are not creating more money to spend – you are taking money from what the employer spends on other things and rerouting it to employees, apparently based on the notion that the owners are always fat cats who always have extra profit they don’t need. If you actually do the math (as they do here) on this and other businesses, you’ll find that forcibly raising wages this high means less money for advertising, rent and other things that can’t appear out of thin air. Unless everyone in Seattle immediately (and I do mean IMMEDIATELY) turns around and spends enough to increase sales enough to make up the difference, the employer must either cut back something else or close.
At a certain point, wages devour the entire profit margin. At that point, the owners turn off the lights.
For those owners choosing to shutter their businesses, $15/hr appears to be that point.
If you increase wages without increasing productivity, all you achieve is inflation.
You could accomplish the same thing by moving the decimal point in the currency.
You neither read the articles nor understand basic math very well. Here, we will do it for you quickly…
(And we will use the numbers you posted somewhere in the comments as if they are correct for this example – that is, we will say there are 30,000 restaurants)
First, because Washington already has a higher minimum wage than average, we find this fact in the Seattle Magazine article:
“Regarding amount of labor, at 14 employees, a Washington restaurant
already averages three fewer workers than the national restaurant
average (17 employees)”
The math on that tells us that in Average State X (“ASX” moving forward) with average minimum wage where you would find the same 30,000 restaurants, there would be 510,000 employees working in said restaurants. Meanwhile in Washington, there are just 420,000.
… Already Washington (420,000), with its higher minimum wage, has 90,000 fewer people employed than ASX (510,000)
Now again elsewhere you claim that you don’t care if your arbitrarily chosen 1,000 restaurants close down (which is likely way too low of a percentage, but whatever, we will still use it.) So merely 1,000 close in your mind, and that is another 14,000 people (average 14 employees times 1,000 restaurants) currently employed who will be losing their jobs.
… Washington (now 406,000) is up to 104,000 fewer people employed in restaurants than ASX (510,000)
Next we will address this line from the article you didn’t read or couldn’t comprehend:
“higher menu prices, cheaper, lower-quality ingredients, reduced opening times, and cutting work hours and firing workers,”
Here we will assume that, on average, another 2-3 employees are lost per business. An average of 2-3 employees losing their jobs spread over the 29,000 restaurants you think stay open means 58,000-87,000 current employees losing their jobs.
… Washington (now 319,000-348,000) is now at 162,000-191,000 fewer people employed in restaurants than ASX (510,000).
In a state with roughly 7 million people, having 162,000-191,000 fewer people working at restaurants than ASX, and assuming our rough estimates are not low (which they almost certainly are, especially regarding how many restaurants will close) already means a very significant increase in unemployment rates – – – and we only factored for restaurants!!! And we havent even touched on the fewer hours for those employees who do get to stay employed, which could be a significant amount with the restaurants being open fewer hours and/or days as the article says is happening.
Once accounted for across all businesses, you are looking at many hundreds of thousands of people who would not be working in Washington that would be working in more average states. These lost jobs will, of course, come at the expense of the lowest skilled and educated in the population (read; minorities and youth) – and those that are working will be paying even higher costs for all products and goods as businesses are forced to make up for the huge cost of employing people. (of course, online shopping means a lot of the higher costs in the area can be avoided if you have enough money to do so, so only the middle class and poor will truly surfer the full brunt of the huge cost increase.)
…Yeah, the “cost of living” you are so worried about will be going up drastically (and quality of living will go down, as the article explains with regards to food) as your employed population shirks significantly… (and you know what that means – higher taxes for all!)
As time goes on, small businesses will almost completely go away while the surviving large (or in your words, evil!) corporations will survive by switching to electronics to cheaply do what expensive workers would have done in the past. (ironically, the huge corporations will be the only ones who benefit as their costs will become lower with the replacing of people with machines) Unemployment rates will continue to rise as people are replaced with robots, which will of course mean taxes will have to rise even more to pay for the masses of unemployed. The massive costs of business in the state will mean fewer businesses moving to the area though, so the jobs wont be coming back. Eventually a “great white flight” will be seen, as has been seen in locations where unions drove up the cost of employees well past what the actual employees were worth. And they are always a “great white flight” because, as stated above, whites are generally the extreme majority people will will have had jobs, and therefore money, to actually move out of the decaying area.
As the article says, it is not a political issue – it is a math issue. The simple math says this plan is guaranteed to fail. And one need just look to the heavy union cities/states around the great lakes to see what happens when the cost of employees greatly outweighs actual employee value. Or shoot, just look internally – Washington already has 3 fewer employees per restaurant even before truly insane minimum wages are factored in.
That said, the complete failure on business side is simple math – but the reason it is being done is 100% political; and not in the way people think. They believe raising minimum wages in select areas will increase the population; especially of low education and skilled workers (read minorities.) Those minorities will be forced to end up on welfare (not enough jobs to employee them, and especially jobs that call for their abilities) which will increase their dependency, and in return, likelihood to vote for the people promising to “protect their benefits” and give them more free stuff. So in one simple move, they will have both increased their likelihood of holding onto power and increased the ease in which they are able to control the population. Power and population control are behind these pushes, not the economic concerns of absolutely anyone (well, other than the politicians and union heads who will become even richer themselves. But it goes without saying an area putting forth communist ideas will see only the ruling class benefit as everyone else becomes “equally” poor)
Clearly, you’re a f*cking idiot.
Perhaps Mr. Foo should open a restaurant and show everyone how it’s done and lead the way? Nah, Mr. Foo just likes to tell other people how easy it is to run a business. Mr. Foo is probably an expert at punching a timeclock at best and that’s about the extent of his real-world captain of industry know-it-all attitude.
OMG you are sooo funny. You think its the minimum wage people REGULARLY go to restaurants other than low priced ones?. And so we raise the minimum wage so they supposedly can go to a better restaurant. Only problem is, between the AFA and the wage increase they either no longer have a job or are working part time so their income either stays the same or is GONE. SO the whole theory of people having more money to spend just took a dump. It’s not just an individual having more money, it’s how much TOTAL expendable cash is available in an economy that determines it’s health. When people are fired or put on part time, the net increase overall is reduced or nullified, And please don’t bring up the 60’s. The world and US economy were totally different than they are today. We had a manufacturing based economy, not a service based one, and the rest of the world was just finally reaching the point where they’d recovered from the depredations of WWII to become competitive. The situations are NOT the same by any means.
Nobody is worth $15 an hour for just showing up. $5 is fair plus the extra $10 for some kind if real performance. Then a bonus if you are worth it. If you are not willing to work for what the business offers, then shut up and work somewhere else.
$15 an hour to wash dishes? Give me a break!
ACTUALLY Mr Fool, with the new mandated Health Insurance, the increase in pay with reduce their subsidy, so that extra $ will go DIRECTLY to the Health Insurance or Federal Health Insurance. NOWHERE ELSE, so it’s essentially gov’t robbing businesses.
Nice of you to choose a fair wage for all those who lost their jobs.
There will be an exodus to just the other side of the county line. You will be amazed at what an economic stimulus this proves to be for neighboring localities.
That’s exactly what some supporters of high minimum wages want: an exodus of THOSE people out of the community.
If those with low wages lose their jobs and those jobs go elsewhere, just what communities will be most affected?
Yep. Communities of color that the wealthy don’t want around.
Suppose you’re correct and consumers increase their spending. That means less money for other things. So if your theory were true, it only means a reallocation of discretionary income from one group to another.
But there a problem with your theory. If it were true that consumers would simply absorb price increase, then restaurants would have already increased their prices beyond where they are now until demand declined. But prices are already set to maximize profits. Higher prices obviously mean less consumer demand and less business. Fewer customers means fewer restaurants in a market and ultimately higher unemployment.
What will consumers buy instead with the money they no longer spend for a restaurant experience? Their entertainment dollars will go elsewhere. Instead of a night out at a restaurant, they’ll rent a movie from Netflix or take a trip, options that direct money outside the community.
If it’s good for the economy for restaurants to pay higher wages to its labor, would it also be good for the economy for the business to pay higher prices for it’s raw food? What about it’s machinery used to cook the food? These are also industries that hire labor, and your emphasis on “the restaurants labor needs to be better paid” comes at the expense of labor in other industries. Why are the laborers of Seattle entitled to higher wages than those of farmers in Iowa, who sell their food to those restaurants. The problem is the higher cost of some inputs like labor, are weighed against the cost of other inputs like raw food. As the article says, “cheaper, lower-quality ingredients” will be a result of the wage hike. If the makers of higher quality ingredients want to compete with the lower quality producers, then they might have to cut labor costs as well. So the minimum wage hike in Seattle could have ripple effects throughout the labor market, not just seen in Seattle.
You’re wrong! I manage a fast food restaurant, and those numbers are correct. Obamacare already forced employee hours to be cut, and any minimum wage over $8.50 to $9.00 any where will result in loss of jobs. Prices can only increase so much, so that means less employees will be scheduled to work. The few that manage to keep thier jobs will make more money, but many others will be forced to go on unemployment. Uneducated people and people who just don’t care about anything other then increasing minimum are the real problem!
Mr. Foo.. done much with business models? Slaves… nice code word. I’ve seen slavery.. and working minimum wage voluntarily isn’t one. Someone working minimum wage does have incentive to move on up to something else, as they prepare themselves.
“Paying people a fair wage will only increase the amount of money people spend on things like going out to eat.” You’re assuming that businesses are willing/able to pay the increased wage. As this article shows, a lot of Seattle restaurants are being forced to close their doors because they can’t afford to pay the higher wages. How much more money will those restaurant employees be spending when they’re unemployed?
Since when was a waiter’s job ever considered a career? For decades they are transitional jobs for high school and college kids. The same goes for fast food chain (line worker) jobs. It is only in the twisted mind of a liberal, who believes they are worth more just because “they are”, that this mentality continues to exist. In a country with the worst labor participation rate in 40 years, the highest amount on disability, highest amount on food stamps (46 million), fools want a “living wage” for menial high school type jobs. Makes perfect sense!
Seattle’s main exports are whining and bullshit, not necessarily in that order.
“Either way, a fair wage is not a liberal agenda”
But it is a left wing agenda fueled by the communist worker’s party. Do some easy research.
And I lived in Seattle under the Reagan years. $450 a month rent and $900 a month minimal wage. It was doable because taxes were low, incentives were high, regulations were low, tipped personnel could be paid less than minimum and everyone of them I knew were making bank in tips. It is very common to get stiffed or get a less-than-10% tip these days thanks to idiots who think they should vote. I’m all for litmus testing landowning taxPAYers over 35 as the only eligible voters!
You realize that with increasing minimum wage that all other prices increase. That’s basic economics. That why minimum wage needs to have stayed where it was at and people need to get the motivation to get better jobs not just be bottom feeders for their whole life.
Hahaha
so don’t pay based on labor skill, pay everyone like they ARE skilled. Why not give everyone PHDs, they Make more ?
Mr Foo
I understand your position on this but disagree.
While what you say about the struggles of those receiving minimum wage is correct you leave out the point that supply and demand or better put organic wage increases are the only way to make things better.
When government forces someone to pay more that can’t be absorbed less jobs will occur and that just amplifiers the problem.
Just look at north Dakota as a perfect example
because there are a shortage of workers Mc Donalds is paying 22.00 a hour and they have a hard time filling those positions
So the answer should be let’s create more jobs by making it easier for people to start a business less tax and regulations will raise income for everyone and less expensive because government subsidize programs would be needed thus lower taxes so people could spend more in restaurants which in turn creates more demand for labor get it????
Sure. Don’t let the statistical proof get in the way or your preconceived notions.
We’ll see, Sis. But in the meanwhile, remember, “and you can keep your doctor!”
Define “fair” Foo. $15/hr.? Why not $25/hr.? Then they’ll have even more money to “go out to eat.”. Hell, make it $50 under your circular logic!
“our main export is not an item only the wealthy can afford, like american made cars”
How is life in a dumpster working out?
You, Mr. Foo, are part of the problem. Call it anything you want, if costs go up businesses leave. If you can’t understand simple economics it’s time to go back to grade school. Here’s already proof in the pudding. And more expensive pudding at that.
Breaking windows appears to be your preferred economic model.
Washington state is a big employer of foreign employees, guaranteed more money will instead be sent to the employee’s families abroad vs “on things like going out to eat.”
In the end, this actually benefits corporations and the greedy CEOs as it puts small business out of business and forces them to either work for them, Walmart, or starve.
If you are unskilled labor, then the min wage is more than fair. If the min wage is $15, then unskilled laborers will never acquire the skills and experience to get one of those jobs. If you read the article above, restaurants who pay $15/hour will operate at a loss. When you operate at a loss, you go bankrupt. It’s that simple. Your idea that you can just give everyone a raise and everyone will be richer is loony lefty cartoon economics. Seattle is about to learn a painful lesson that such silliness does not work.
But, then, on the other hand, thank you very much for making Seattle the test case for proving the $15 min wage a city killer. The nation will learn a lot from your example.
YOU AREN’T SUPPOSED TO PAY RENT WITH A JOB THAT PAY $9.52 AN HOUR! That wage is for HIGH SCHOOL KIDS and COLLEGE STUDENTS.
“Fair wage”..? Fair to whom? Certainly it will not be fair to those small business owners who lose their business over this idiocy. I must also ask why an idiot making minimum wage thinks he needs a $1500/ month apt when there are plenty for rent in the $600-$800 range. Even IF someone wanted to be “choosy” and live in a nicer neighborhood, you could pay the same in a decent spot anywhere from Everett to Auburn!
Increased wage for an employee means increased cost of labor for the employer. If the national minimum wage became 15 dollars tomorrow, then your cost of living will shoot up, or more people will work less, because everyone on the business side has to find ways to recoup the hike in labor costs. In other words, inflation.
You’ll often hear someone reply “then why not raise the min wage to 100 dollars an hour, so everyone can have even more money to spend”. If you dismiss that as too outlandish, then you understand the basic principles behind why raise in min wage can be problematic. We’re not taking about a 50 cent raise here.
I go to mom and pop eateries to get authentic Asian food, and those places operate on razor thin margins. That’s where you see Mexicans work the kitchen for cash under the table. Min wage goes up 15, and maybe those guys demand raises. Game over.
BULLSHIT.
This is the most stupid thing a grown adult can think. Obviously, Foo is a socialist who has never owned a business and has no clue about what it takes to run a business. Foo needs to get his head out of the socialist koolaid and try starting a business himself. Then he would be singing a different tune.
You are sadly more than a little ignorant.
I own a restaurant and moved here from Detroit. Before you decide to engage in another poorly thought out rant again, you should definitely have a working knowledge on the topic. I will raise my prices accordingly or close as well. Btw, the numbers quoted in this article are accurate.
Dude you do know that when minimum wage spikes, everything will cost more wether the general populus likes it or not. I dont live in seattle but i live in kent. Just say a gallon of milk is $3 currently, with the minimum wage increase that $3 is now $5 or $6. This also makes the people who went to college for a better paying job less relevent because the companys, say at a hospital will not get a pay increase because minimum wage went up. No they would be getting a pay cut, just from the increase. Learn how economics work before getting bent out of shape
it sucks that people are in poverty but, it is their own fault.
1. It is not the resturant owner’s responsibility to pay the mortgage or inflated Obamacare premiums for some unskilled sap. If you want a job that pays enough to support a family, then it is your responsibility to make yourself more marketable. Businesses are not charities.
2. Everyone negotiates his or her salary. Even by applying to bus tables, you have presumably applied for the highest paying job your skill set would support.
3. With the left every business owner down to the guy who runs a hotdog stand is a monopoly man fat cat lighting cigars with 100 dollar bills. In reality, many just get buy or fail within the first year. So double labor costs and see how many go under or never start
Wow $15 a hr is horse crap to pay a server. Here’s an idea, claim the tips you get like the law says you should and all will see you make much more then $15/ hr.
What’s a fair wage? Employers are not people’s food ticket, they are to pay you for the work you do as agreed upon by both parties. Employers are not there to make sure you have a certain standard of living, and to be paying for it. If someone want more money then let them better themselves. Its better to be employed for $5 an hour than to be unemployed for $15 an hour. Besides having a job makes you more marketable than having none at all.
$1500 for rent? Are you questioning that? There is no place cheaper? Why not a roommate? No other jobs in Seattle that pay $10-$20 an hour. You are already seeing resturants.closing. they already work on small margins. You asked for it, you got it. Learn to cook because you will have less choices and more unemployment.
Want a good living wage, work harder then those around you, work when asked, come in when called and you will EARN good pay. Works everytime. It’s not the Governments job to dictate what a buisness pays it’s employees. If pay is to low, people won’t work there. If your a mature adult making minimum wage, LOOK IN THE MIRROR!!
What a load of liberal tripe. “Paying people a fair wage will only increase the amount of money people spend on things like going out to eat.” People will spend more to go out and eat, but fewer people will go out to eat and they will do so less frequently. Business does not run according to liberal ideals.
Working in jobs like fast food and as cart pushers is not a job intended for people live on or raise a family. Those jobs are for kids getting their first jobs. To have some spending money. People working those jobs should not make more money than our active military service men and women.
You’re a moron. Raising the wage only makes the cost of goods to go up. And when the costs of goods & services goes up, then something as simple as dining out becomes an elitist activity. The common people will not be able to afford it. It will require a different budget just to afford to eat at home. If you want to make more money – I’m not AT ALL against that – but LEARN A SKILL or a TRADE or go to school and become more than a skill-less worker that does the same job a high school dropout could do blindfolded with their hands tied behind their back. Stop dummying down the rest of society because of your laziness. America is the land of opportunity not the land of the guaranteed. You’re not ENTITLED to anything. But you can work to earn it.
people cant spend when restaurants cant afford to stay open. no restauirant no jobs no people….. your an idiot
Minimum wage was actually put in place as a Starting point for our Youth….it was a “Minimum wage” for kids in High school living at Home Paying no Bills…more or less to take the Burden off of the Parents and teach the Kids some Responsibility. ..minimum wage was not to Live on Or Support a Family. …it was a Starting point for youth…..
The fair wage is a Liberal BS talking point period. 1. what is a “fair wage” please give an exact figure so we know how to respond? Just don’t throw out a talking point with no basis facts or figures to discuss. 2. Why is the rent to high in Seattle? 3. Many of the food service industry jobs were for part-time and kids to learn skills after/before school for spending money. Who really thinks or wants a career making French fries. 4. The Liberals love making their power hungry elite friends tons of money keeping the stupid mis-informed. 5. If you really want to place BLAME look in the mirror for you casted the vote for your feelings at the expense of every American, because nothing is free and the money and spending must come from somewhere. You know very little about me and how I help the poor or needy yet because I refuse to ALLOW a corrupt politician waste away the fruits of my labor you call me/us uncaring. Why is giving up my hard earned labor to some FAT bottomed bureaucrats wages, work building, work supplies, vacations, sick pay and the generous pensions they elected themselves with my/our money? The truth is that government pisses away the majority of what it collects to help “the poor”, “the banks’, and any other pet favor they do. Government sucks up the lions share yet tell you that we need more money because GUESS WHAT we have more poor now??? If government would stop making the dollar WORTHLESS many more opportunities would arise and those that refused to get an education could sustain themselves and then we could use those valuable resources to those that truly need them ELDERLY, VETERANS, DISABLED and others. What I hate is that my tax dollars are wasted on my Cholo neighbors who get to eat better than me party all night, fancy jordans, smoke weed all day, not go to school and not ever have to worry about rent. What’s the “fair wage” I get to keep of what I wake up everyday for to bust my hump? I have a family to feed as well and to provide a roof over their head, tell me what’s fair?
If your raise goes up to $15, then prices for the hamburger will go up, and now you can take that extra dollar you earned to pay for that more expensive burger, so that they can pay other employees that extra dollar an hour. YOu dont get it! By the way, Jesus Christ is the answer for the world today!
“Increasing wages means more $ for people to spend?” The reality of the statement is “the more wages are increased, the more things will cost, then in reality world, the wage increase was nothing more than a smoke screen and changes nothing” …
If the economy operates in a manner by which every time you pay people more that generates even more sales (wealth) which I assume pays even more people more money meaning they can now spend even more … ad infinitum, why would we stop at $15 an hour? Lets go with a $100 an hour and make us all rich. And … do you have some sort of definition of what would constitute a “fair” wage? By what process would you determine a fair wage? Who would ultimately decide what constitutes fair? Did I miss where everyone quit learning anything in school?
research is wrong but your right? gimme a break you have no idea.
What’s “fair?” Who gets to decide? If $15 is fair, is $25 “fairer.” In our economy, we pay people what they contribute and what their skills are worth. Not some arbitrary scale of “fairness.”
you’re an idiot – and no doubt a democrat. But then I repeat myself. Maybe you ought to take an economics class, birdbrain. This is why I will no longer go into Seattle for any food or entertainment. Paying a high school dropout flipping burgers $15.00 an hour is a travesty when you compare it to what we pay our low ranking military.
Sounds to me like before long only the wealthy will be able to afford to dine out in Seattle.
Mr. Foo’s defense of the minimum raise increase has a hidden presupposition i.e. employees working in minimum wage capacities do so to support themselves and/or family members. This is false. How many employees intend to make a career out of their minimum wage jobs? Or are actually supporting themselves and/or family members? Minimum wage jobs provide young, high school and college age students and others with valuable work experiences/skills (responsibility and dependability) while they study to move into jobs/careers that pay more for even greater responsibilities and a more advanced skill set. It’s a shame so many businesses are closing their doors because they can’t afford to pay their workers. Fewer jobs, fewer restaurants….
Those people don’t live in $1500 per month apartments.
Mr. Foo – you’re solving the wrong problem. The problem is government controls, not freedom. But you probably already know that, eh?
Businesses with less than 500 employees have 7 years to bring it in. I agree with Mr Foo…Oh Horseshit… read… http://murray.seattle.gov/minimumwage/#sthash.sc3NX9vr.dpbs Give your head a shake, it’s time that Walmart, McDonalds et al started paying above poverty wages to save the feds annually billions in welfare dollars. Walmart alone costs you $7.4 billion a year! We the tax payers should not be subsidizing these greedy bastards. Ever wonder why service is so bad in Walmrt? Why the stores are dirty? How good a job would you do for $7.25 an hour? When you know that the 8 Waltons make more a year than 30% of the total population…that’s just wrong! Imagine if there was no minimum wage, what would they pay?
Except the pro minimum wage increase people are forcing prices to rise to the point the workers are in a worse situation. The store or restaurant will loose money if they don’t raise the prices. This makes the minimum wage earners to actually loose spending power. I have seen this first hand several times during my life. My first brand new car cost me $47 per month. I made $3 per hour when I bought my first house for $20K. Under Carter, we had double digit inflation and housing was rising so fast that a lot of people lost the dream of owning their home.
Don.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
I am sure that you have thought of this, so I need to ask…
1) How do you suggest we pay kids that are just learning their first job? They are not supporting a family, and they will be making a whole bunch of mistakes as they gain very important experience. How do we keep employers from skipping over these “first rung” employees, when it won’;t make any economic sense to hire them?
2) How do you suggest we pay jobs that are usually filled by the elderly that are just looking to supplement their income? I suspect that you believe a greeter at a retail store is worth $30,000 per year plus about $18,000 in medical and employer’s part of social security, but in fact, most employers will simply cut the position.
3) How do you guess businesses that rely on part time help and low skill help will remain competitive with businesses that do not have to pay that wage? If you are thinking, that the new wage might make some people learn to do more with less workers, or invest in machinery to replace labor, congratulations! You just took employment away from a whole bunch of people who will find it harder to get new work.
In the real world, we cannot sit around the campfire, singing Kumbaya and just assume everything will work out.
Your blinding hatred and indoctrination prevents you from thinking-.
You can no more change the laws of the economics than you can the laws of physics…laws of gravity….
How many businesses did you run to even remotely understand how it works….
I bet the one- pulling buggers and putting them in your mouth…..
Great news Mr. Foo, now is your chance to open a restaurant is Seattle!
C’mon, show all those Right-Wingers who are closing up how it’s done!!! (most Seattle restaurants are run by Right-wingers, aren’t they?)
^ Folks, this is the problem. ^
So your telling me that fast food employees should make just as much as a construction laborer??? Fast food jobs are and should still be for kids and that’s that. Liberal or conservative its bs! If you choose to not go to school or get out of the restaurant business then the wage shouldn’t be raised.
Exactly. Unfortunately, most people don’t understand economics. The Fat Cats hoard dollars and it doesn’t trickle down or help the economy in any way. Pay workers a living wage and you lighten the tax burden on everyone and stimulate the economy in one move!
Mr. Foo — WAAAHHHH!!
right, because the price of food and services never goes up
You don’t own a business do you Mr Foo??
It is going to hurt everyone.
The result will be that everyone will raise their prices to adjust for higher cost and then the burger flippers will be back in the same boat. You don’t have to believe me or anyone else, just sit back and watch.
Mr. Foo, if $15 / hour “will only increase the amount of money people spend on things…”, then why not make min-wage $25 or $50 per hr and increase the money spent on those things hella *more*?
You cite rent costs so by your logic why not just pass a “Fair Rent” law requiring rents be no more than $750 per month? Or better yet, maybe no more than 25% of one’s take home welfare or pay?
Using your logic, we can make *everyone* at least upper middle-class and just imagine how much that will “increase the amount of money people spend on things”…
Question: If $9.52 makes people slaves, then what does $15 make them? Serfs? What exactly is the dollar amount where one becomes a “slave”?
The main export in the future for Seattle will be part-time laborers. I hear a lot of narrative from you but nothing with any real facts. Typical liberal, it’s true if I say it…..
Foo, never had to meet a payroll, have you.
Never had to live or die by a P&L statement, never had to face the numerous taxes small buisness has to pay. Do you have any idea whatnot burden is.
Average rent 1500, but that doesn’t mean that you can’t find rent that is half that amount. There are studios and 1 bedrooms for roughly $600 per month. Which leaves 1/2 of your paycheck for the other things. Does it mean you have to be thrifty, yes. I was in my 30s before I ever bought a new car and even then it wasn’t a top-of-the-line model. You used to be able to buy a low cost health plan that provided coverage for catastrophes and emergencies, unfortunately not anymore. That said, even under the current system if you are making only $1500 a month you will probably get free health insurance. If you are a two income family, then the percentage of that income going to basic necessities is even smaller. So if you and a spouse are making a combined 3000 a month, and spend a modest 7-900 on rent, you have over two grand for everything else. Things change when you use something other than averages which includes condo’s in Bellevue, don’t they?
Hmmm, Seattle’s main export? Aircraft, now that is something everybody can afford. The difference between the two cities is Seattle’s economy is built largely on white collar workers who aren’t all that interested in a handout, that is changing with the mindset of $15 plus an hour for unskilled work. These were formerly entry level jobs held by college and high school students or families looking for a little extra income.
Mr Foo……….you are right about them having more money to spend…….BUT what they buy with their money will cost them more. Net result: NO GAIN. In 1956 a man earning $100 bucks a week could support his family. How is that? A hint: PRICES were in line with average wages. The only ones who rise above average are lucky, inherit it or (Heaven forbid) WORK FOR IT. Government cannot legislate prosperity. There will always be rich, middle and lower. All government meddling will ever do is push more from the middle to the lower. The “war on poverty” is a complete failure. We have more below the poverty line now than we did when that “grand plan” was introduced. Read up on it. Lyndon Johnson and his cronies had only one goal………securing votes. He is even quoted as saying “I’ll have those N*****S voting Democratic for the next hundred years.” I’ll repeat: GOVERNMENT CANNOT LEGISLATE PROSPERITY.
Had minimum wage been increasing, ALL THESE YEARS, along w/ the COST OF LIVING increase, it’d be MORE than 15 measly dollars!!!
Average rent in Alaska is around 1200 a month and we have the normal minimum wage. Just like a mechanic usually doesn’t do work on his own rig because that’s his job people that work food industry don’t wanna go out to eat. Seattle is going to get a rude awakening in the next year or two
Mr.Foo,it should be Mr.Fool. You make this ludicrous comment yet there it is in plain black and white,the article states that many businesses are closing down while the others are raising their prices.This was predicted to happen but no,the liberals said this would never happen.You need to get your head out of your ass and read the article,it is happening,happening right now!!!!!
When cost goes up prices go up. If a resource (employees) that you business uses goes up then price of goods or service that the business provides goes up. That is why through out history those who earn minimum wage live a minimum quantity of life. Regardless if the minimum wage is $1 or $50 dollars those who decide to settle for minimum wage are settling for a low quality life.
Yeah, vehicles and beer are luxuries, not necessities. Am I mistaken or did you say only wealthy people can afford American made cars as well? US cars are some of the cheapest on the market, along with some of the best warranties as well meaning more bang for your buck. Next, raising to wage to an unsustainable level, I.e. $15 an hour, does force many business’ to close simply because the profit margin isn’t there. So if by paying people higher wage, you say that there will be more money to spend on the economy, but if the economy can’t afford to pay that higher min wage, and forces businesses to close then I’d say you feeble minded plan of an astronomical min wage was a kick in the pants.
What good is a $15 an hour job if the places that pay that are closing. Look to Detroit people. Someone said this is not a political problem but a math problem. How do you run your own home. If something becomes to expensive, what do you do? Small businesses don’t run on huge profit margins. I hope seattle likes wal-mart bc thats what you are going to be left with. Enjoy your downtown dieing and people leaving, trailer parks, crime and drugs. New Detroit.
You correctly point out that the majority of people’s income goes towards rent. That is because there is a scarcity of supply of housing. As wages increase to $15/hr, housing will simply absorb that increase, and there will still be not enough money for he health care, food, a car, going out, etc…
Increasing money supply to fix a low cost housing supply shortage problem will not work.
There is not a country in the world with a minimum wage that allows a minimum wage worker with a family of 4 to be living above the poverty line. This is because of a supply problem.
Did you read the article? An owner profits 28k a year from $700,000 in sales. Assuming a 40 hour work week, that would be $13.46 per hour. The owner also doesn’t get any tips.
I worked as a cook in a restaurant in Belltown making 13 an hour before I left to move into Oregon just 6 months ago. I was a kitchen lead looking at a promotion to sous chef. I would have been making about 15 an hour if I stayed. A friend of mine works in a hotel as a sous chef making 20 an hour. The wage going up over the next couple of years will not effect restaurants much. People in Seattle love to go out to eat. Servers hours may be cut back but people in Seattle also know how to tip for the part. Aree the people commenting suggesting cooking is not a skill? It is a skill. Just because your spouse and kids like your cooking doesn’t mean you have what it takes to cook for 250 people who all want different things temped to order. One thing none of these people are considering is that most people in Seattle make close to 15 already and by 2017 that would have been the going wage anyways. So they really don’t need the minimum wage to go up. If your employer is paying the ridiculous minimum wage now in Seattle than you better be in high school otherwise your employer doesn’t care about you and you should quit because even janitors in Seattle start at 12
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/09/14/15-now-seatac/
Don’t bring Detroit into this! Detroit’s back on the rise and will no longer qualify as everyone’s dummy example of a crisis city. One day some city will be GLAD to be called “The Detroit of the [fill in your coordinates]”.
It won’t because the Northwest is 100000000X better than the midwest.
Weird how it’s one of the fastest growing cities in America. 1st fastest is the liberal oasis in Texas: Austin.
I agree … as we march down this progressive / liberal / socialist road in Seattle (as well as WA State) things will only get worse … Re/ the replies that “increasing wages means more $ for people to spend” the reality of the statement is “the more wages are increased, the more things will cost, then in reality world, the wage increase was nothing more than a smoke screen and changes nothing” … As socialist programs run amuck, Seattle will break down, everyone with any means will move out of the Seattle City Limits, Then one morning Seattle wakes up, and begins the process of filing for bankruptcy (just as Detroit City had to) …
I hope you enjoy eating crow.
Brigadier said:
“Seattle will be renamed Detroit West in 8-10 years, and kshama sawant will be yelling at people as they leave town that they are capitalist pigs.”
Right you are! The WORST cities in the USA have one thing in common – all are ruled by the Democrat Party.
Nah. She’ll be on to the next state for the next rally so she can fill her pockets. She’s looking to go national, baby. She wants Obama’s spot.
In a number of states they allow full serve restaurants to pay a reduced hourly wage, due to tip income. AssClowns like Nick Hanauer are getting what they want!! He can kiss those small business owner’s butts as they leave town!!
It’s horrible that tipped workers get paid less than the minimum wage. In Washington they get paid the same as anyone else plus tips. We have lots of restaurants here. Literally it’s like the economy is half restaurants, so many here…obviously they can pay that amount. There is actually fewer restaurants in states where the workers make starvation wages.
I’m amazed at how many people like you there are, that are happy with people worked raw to the bone for pennies on the dollar. It’s all about what the owners want right?
It’s amazing people like you can continue to champion policies to “help” the “poor overworked proletariat” as if it’s EVER worked in history where ever it’s been tried. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, a saying coined because of people like you.
Hell isn’t real. We either create heaven or hell on Earth by the actions we take. Helping people has always worked before…It’s when people need help and we say “fuck you” that always causes the problems for people.
All I can say is that minimum wage rising has not caused the sky to fall and I am a small business owner that helps others with work at fair pay. I don’t see what the big deal is or why I have to be a greedy scumfuck to get any kind of approval. It’s like if you’re mean to people ” you had to do it” but when you’re nice, it’s that “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” as if that’s always the case. Screw that.
Tensor it’s not hard to figure you out, you probably live in your parents house, have a medical pot card and work at Subway, if you do indeed work. Minimum wage is not a career job, these jobs are for kids to learn the value of working, buying their first c