Seattle’s $15 minimum wage law goes into effect on April 1, 2015. As that date approaches, restaurants across the city are making the financial decision to close shop. The Washington Policy Center writes that “closings have occurred across the city, from Grub in the upscale Queen Anne Hill neighborhood, to Little Uncle in gritty Pioneer Square, to the Boat Street Cafe on Western Avenue near the waterfront.”
Of course, restaurants close for a variety of reasons. But, according to Seattle Magazine, the “impending minimum wage hike to $15 per hour” is playing a “major factor.” That’s not surprising, considering “about 36% of restaurant earnings go to paying labor costs.” Seattle Magazine,
“Washington Restaurant Association’s Anthony Anton puts it this way: “It’s not a political problem; it’s a math problem.”
“He estimates that a common budget breakdown among sustaining Seattle restaurants so far has been the following: 36 percent of funds are devoted to labor, 30 percent to food costs and 30 percent go to everything else (all other operational costs). The remaining 4 percent has been the profit margin, and as a result, in a $700,000 restaurant, he estimates that the average restauranteur in Seattle has been making $28,000 a year.
“With the minimum wage spike, however, he says that if restaurant owners made no changes, the labor cost in quick service restaurants would rise to 42 percent and in full service restaurants to 47 percent.”
Restaurant owners, expecting to operate on thinner margins, have tried to adapt in several ways including “higher menu prices, cheaper, lower-quality ingredients, reduced opening times, and cutting work hours and firing workers,” according to The Seattle Times and Seattle Eater magazine. As the Washington Policy Center points out, when these strategies are not enough, businesses close, “workers lose their jobs and the neighborhood loses a prized amenity.”
A spokesman for the Washington Restaurant Association told the Washington Policy Center, “Every [restaurant] operator I’m talking to is in panic mode, trying to figure out what the new world will look like… Seattle is the first city in this thing and everyone’s watching, asking how is this going to change?” The Washington Policy Center,
“Seattle is rightly famous for great neighborhood restaurants. That won’t change. What will change is that fewer people will be able to afford to dine out, and as a result there will be fewer great restaurants to enjoy. People probably won’t notice when some restaurant workers lose their jobs, but as prices rise and some neighborhood businesses close, the quality of life in urban Seattle will become a little bit poorer.”
tensor says
In 1998, we voters enacted I-688, which has since raised our state’s minimum wage to the highest of the fifty states. The result?
Payrolls at Washington’s restaurants and bars, portrayed as particularly vulnerable to higher wage costs, expanded by 21 percent. Poverty has trailed the U.S. level for at least seven years.
Washington Restaurant Association’s Anton was last seen here at shiftwa.org, trying to chisel wage money from teenagers:
SB 5422 would allow businesses to pay anyone under the age of 20 the federal minimum wage, which is currently $7.25, as opposed to the minimum wage in Washington State of $9.47.
High-end restaurants open and close all of the time in Seattle. Instead of talking about how the market wisely sorts out favorites, we get self-serving anecdotes and bad math from persons who always oppose minimum wages. When you’ve got years of economic data to support your claims, like I have here cited to support mine, please let us know. Until then, we here in Seattle will be checking out all of our new, local places to eat.
Eastside Sanity says
The local government run soup kitchen is where you’ll be dining Comrade Tensor. Then it will be back to work in your government job that your Deer Leader Inslee provides on the backs of the people. Take comfort that he will protect you from yourself.
Brigadier says
Ah, the life of a good little brown shirt.
Pithy Eponym Here says
That’s hysterical. The Brownshirts ( Godwin’s Nazi reference ftw!) were not Socialists any more than the Democratic Republic of North Korea is Republican or Democratic. When you try to use big words, at least try to look them up so you can stay with the class.
Deer leader? Is that the head of the herd? People that balk at raising the minimum wage cry the same sad song they’ve been crying EVERY TIME the min wage gets raised. Yet I have to see any pandemic of economic collapse. The very system you espouse ( or at least think you do) mocks your ignorance. Businesses are not the final stop in the economic chain, nor is payroll/taxes/benefits et al. It is all interconnected. Decently paid employees spend money and are consumers. It is the hoarders at the top, the takers who give nothing back (ok, sure charitable gifts, mostly to religious orgs that can hide their donations due to Constitutional firewalls, and other tax-deductibles just make it a temporary loan out for these uber rich) for the most part that do the most whining. When America had a strong, made in America work force who benefitted? Where did suburbia come from? Who built those houses and roads to get there? Union thugs. Now we have outsourced 90% of our “makers” and built a web of multinational spider nests and you all flit about the web thinking you’re spiders. You’re lunch.
Brigadier says
Someone has over dosed on the class warfare kool aid big time. Instead of bettering yourself to get a better paying job, you want the .gov to mandate that your employer pay you $15/hr to flip burgers and empty the fry basket. A lazy little turd that wants the brass ring handed to him.
Pithy Eponym Here says
Again, spouting talking points about nothing you have any clue about. Demographically, those “burger flippers” are older than high school students. Despite your romanticized bootstrap first job daydreams, most of those people in urban areas work more than one of those “burger flipping fry cooks” because they pay so little and because those are the only jobs that have been available. So while you look down on them as your HDL rises to a hopefully non fatal coronary event eating their food, think about those cooks who would like to eventually be able to run the franchise, but can’t because they can’t go to school and get a BA and become a viable candidate as their time commitment is limited.
The reason why it’s called a minimum wage is that employers would pay nothing if they could. Oh wait that’s called internships, but you have to be in college for that and sponge off family and relatives. Catch 22…
Fwiw I own my home, pay more than you do in property taxes and most likely my Fed tax $ goes to pay for your Oxycontin Rx. Thanks Obama!
Fleagus Gustafario says
Unrealistic…I’ve seen plenty of hard working, smart people who struggle to get good jobs because there’s literally not enough slots for that. There’s 400 people and 200 slots, that means 200 people get left out in one way or another, even if they are perfectly qualified.
I know that when I apply to any job I never get a call back, but my work experience is good, and my Resume is professional. I finally had to start my own business because zero income was coming in…it’s worked out far better than any job…Information Technology is a decently lucrative field if you can fix problems and develop technical
solutions for people.
Gilbert Fernandez Jr. says
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/407190/Nazi-Party
Gilbert Fernandez Jr. says
Again Pithy Eponym Here, where did suburbia come from? What was the economic situation on a global scale? Where else could the American worker buy any of its goods? Who else was the USA competing with? Once you can compare and contrast the global market at that time with that of today and still come up with the same level of economic participation then I would be more incline to be persuaded with your perspective.
Pithy Eponym Here says
Post war boom. William Levitt and co. develop affordable housing for returning GI’s. American manufacturing at all time high. The automobile/Robert Moses/ Eisenhower highways est. car makers as industry blue chips. On a global scale? Post war reconstruction. You know Dresden had a lot of construction as I am sure did Nagasaki, influenced by NATO SOFA agreements/ influx of business and trade rebuilding coming from western countries.
Fleagus Gustafario says
Totally right!! *drops mic*
tensor says
I’m sure someone from Eastern Washington is very well experienced in living off the government welfare provided by us liberals in Puget Sound. If only you’d just admit it explicitly…
Eastside Sanity says
Comrad Tensor and his party leaders provide for the people. A proud member of the communist party of King County. Taking our money that we earn in the real world and distributing it amongst the liberal members throughout the state who support his party with predetermined voters ballots cast as payment.
tensor says
Taking our money that we earn in the real world and distributing it amongst the liberal members …
I didn’t know Eastern Washington had so many liberals.
Eastside Sanity says
Washington State is loaded with them Hamster Brain, all the Cali gang moving up here for those free benifits you keep giving away at our expence. You need to come out of your urban cave and see the rest of your prepaid democratic voters you have voting for your parties liberal policies in this state.
tensor says
You’re just never going to admit that King County makes and sends money to Olympia, and pretty much every county in Eastern Washington mooches and takes money from Olympia, are you?
Eastside Sanity says
Come on Hamster Brain, The issue is: democrats vote for democrats, democratic leaning voters vote for democrats. Voters vote their issues. Anybody who voted for democrats, benifit from their policies. And your liberal democrat policies are Tax & Spend. Big Government control and Socialized services with subsidies for everything. 40 Years of Democratic Party control speaks to who benifits from the tax giveaways you like. I vote opposition to that every chance I get. But you already know that, don’t you Hamster Brain.
Pithy Eponym Here says
Name calling, the last stop in a limited capacity for argument. You have failed your city!
tensor says
Anybody who voted for democrats, benifit from their policies.
And the voters of Eastern Washington, who vote overwhelmingly for Republicans, receive more government benefits — including straight-up welfare! — than do the liberals in King County. It’s not difficult concept, you just have to stop fighting it.
I vote opposition to that every chance I get.
But you still take the money.
Brigadier says
Ever hold a private sector job? I bet not.
tensor says
Ever hold a private sector job? I bet not.
I’ll take that bet. Just tell me how much you want to fork over, and what my guarantee of collection is.
Brigadier says
Guaranteed, like your welfare check? Or your guaranteed .gov paycheck, even if you are worthless or get furloughed for a two week vacation during a shut down?
Yitzhak says
You’re a liberal parrot espousing liberal BS.
tensor says
Facts, how do they work?
Roger says
Im sorry, You are 100% wrong. Those teenagers make FAR MORE in tips than they could ever earn in wages. How do I know? I was a teenage waiter. Then a bartender… then a restaurant manager. ALL of my employees were AGAINST a minimum wage hike because they knew THREE THINGS: 1. Their hours would be cut to save on labor cost, its a huge issue in the restaurant business. Plus they would be understaffed so their workload would be too hectic 2. Their earnings would drastically shrink and now be 100% federally taxed instead of only 15-20% being taxed as we have under the tipping system. 3. The food prices would go up sharply so business would decline meaning the few small tips they still get would be smaller. You have it all wrong. Go work at a restaurant for TWO MINUTES and you would understand how wrong-headed you are on this issue. Tipping is a system that keeps prices low for diners, gives incentive for strong friendly service, and allows a typical teen with NO EXPERIENCE and NO EDUCATION to earn upwards of $40 PER HOUR just by smiling and keeping drinks filled. Really, Im not trying to fight, Im trying to make you understand a side of this you are MISSING COMPLETELY.
Eastside Sanity says
The next step in the liberal lack of thought in Capatolisum.
Pithy Eponym Here says
wtf is Capatolisum? The next step in the Conservative Idiocracy? Invest in Brawndo!
Simon says
Idiocracy referenceXD perfect
Fleagus Gustafario says
Seriously! Is there something in the water?
Brigadier says
Seattle will be renamed Detroit West in 8-10 years, and kshama sawant will be yelling at people as they leave town that they are capitalist pigs.
Roger Peterson says
I bet it won’t take but a couple of years
hoya says
Obama made sure of that!!!!
TheTatteredTailor says
Must be Obamas fault. Really? Stop using the president as a scape goat. Come up with something that’s actually logical.
Muttdog says
Oblamu is the reason he started this crap about wages so T.T. Take your B.S. else where you trolls are worthless!
Mr. Foo says
Oh horseshit. Paying people a fair wage will only increase the amount of money people spend on things like going out to eat. You people are either misinformed or just plain greedy. Either way, a fair wage is not a liberal agenda, any more than war is a right wing agenda. rents in Seattle average $1500 a month. at 9.52 (current minimum wage) people are slaves. you can barely pay rent on that, never mind health care, or FOOD, or a car, or a bus or going out to eat, or clothes, or beer. The difference between Seattle and Detroit is that our main export is not an item only the wealthy can afford, like american made cars.
Hedge685 says
If only there weren’t numerous examples in history which tell us you are completely wrong.
Mr. Foo says
Maybe cite a few, legitimate ones, not opinion articles from magazines? If only, like how I can say that no businesses closed due to the same law being enacted in Sea Tac, and area with much lower costs of living by the way.
Katy Wilkerson says
San Francisco book stores have been closing because of a looming $15 an hour minimum wage.
cafeblue says
Seatac can do what it;s doing because the wage earners can go to Kent or Renton or Seattle or Tacoma and buy the stuff they need for lower prices in cities that aren’t currently paying their employees as much. Wait until the whole state goes to 15 an hour. Watch the hilarity ensue. By the way, using your logic, if 15 dollars an hour is good and beneficial, why not 20? 25? 50?
Arty G says
Don’t work for minimum wage then. get some skills that can actually pay the bills.
Mr. Foo says
You people are full of shit.
You should get a life instead of trying to make other peoples lives harder by claiming you know what is good for everyone. Where is your Humanity? Miserable people love company, and obviously you are miserable.
By the way, here are the facts on the issue.
1. FLAT RATE
Large employers who do not pay towards an employee’s medical benefits plan pay
a flat hourly minimum wage based on the following schedule:
MINIMUM WAGE
2015 (April 1) $11.00/hour
2016 (January 1) $13.00/hour
2017 (January 1) $15.00/hour
2. MEDICAL BENEFITS
Large employers who do make payments toward an employee’s medical benefits
plan pay a reduced minimum wage based on the following schedule.
MINIMUM WAGE
2015 (April 1) $11.00/hour
2016 (January 1) $12.50/hour
2017 (January 1) $13.50/hour
2018 (January 1) $15.00/hour
Chris says
You are just plain stupid. You claim that we should get a life instead of making everyone’s life harder. It is you who is telling the restaurant owner’s lives harder. You are telling them how to operate their business. Gov’t should stay out of it. Gov’t knows nothing about running a business. If you have a business and want to pay your workers more. Go for it. If not, shut up. the problem is most liberals never think of the consequences as they live in a dream world. The reality is many businesses will shut down because of this… but what if it is only 1? Is it still right? Not one bit. You sir, are a complete idiot devoid of any understand of simple economics or history.
ecec55 says
Yes he is!
peterjohn936 says
Has never happen. Minimum wages go up. And employment stays the same.
Greg Carlson says
Except that it has happened everytime. The cost of eating put is greater in countries with min. wages than in those without. And the higher the min., the more extreme it is.
tensor says
The cost of eating is greater in Switzerland, Sweden, and Canada than in Somalia. Where would you prefer to live?
Katsstud says
Oops…the logic train didn’t stop at your house.
Bakii says
Sure so then raise it to 50 dollars an hour given that employment will stay the same. See kids? This is why economics is important, so you won’t spew idiotic shit when talking about policies.
Vinnie Garbone says
Do you have a comparison model where minimum wage was raised $5.48/hr in a matter of 4 years?
I can’t recall minimum raise anywhere being raised so sharply.
tensor says
I-688 mandated a 32.7% increase over two years — Washington state’s minimum wage went from $4.90/hour in 1998 to to $5.70 in 1999 and $6.50 in 2000. Seattle’s minimum wage law requires the following increases, for businesses with more than 500 employees:
$11.00 by April 1, 2015
$13.00 by January 1, 2016
$15.00 by January 1, 2017
Based on Washington state’s current minimum wage of $9.47/hour, those are annual increases of 16.2%, 18.2%, and 15.4%, respectively. The increase from the current $9.47/hour to $15/hour is an increase of 58.4% over two years — a larger increase than the statewide increase mandated by I-688 for our entire state. However, given that Seatac’s economy has taken a $15/hour minimum wage with no damage at all, we in Seattle are confident our economy can do as well.
Katsstud says
While I don’t doubt that people driven by ideologies instead of knowledge, common sense, and experience will believe what they want to believe, do you truly think that the market is the same as in 1999?
The increase represents about 60% of the local median wage and that in itself will affect unemployment rates as higher educated and skilled people will gravitate to a market they would not previously consider when unemployed. It is safe to say that the traditional employee in that market will be displaced for a higher grade worker. Current employees are simply not worth $15/hr. to the business and that is the basis for argument.
The Seatac example is specious. Many of the businesses in that area have adjusted by cutting benefits, free food, and retirement. Some anecdotal evidence has shown that tips are also down as consumers adjust to high prices. You probably also realize that many of the workers who gained governmental support before don’t get it now through food stamps etc. and so the overall affect on the economy through local redistribution is negative. Seatac has only implemented for a year and so you will see these businesses reduce employment through reductions in streamlining and automation as they have been overseas for years. Although they have resisted movement away from automation and streamlining for customer service reasons, you will see a definite shift if there costs increases more than 60%. To think otherwise is foolish.
Your faith in your God is misplaced, because he is ignorant, short- sighted, and mean spirited. Give people hope in their own way, yet give them no real gains and probably bigger losses. Great stuff.
tensor says
… do you truly think that the market is the same as in 1999?
No. I was merely noting the increases in our state’s minimum wage haven’t had the negative effects the opponents predicted. Therefore, we have no reason to believe the negative predictions being made now.
… as higher educated and skilled people will gravitate to a market they would not previously consider when unemployed. It is safe to say that the traditional employee in that market will be displaced for a higher grade worker.
Have you evidence of this occurring anywhere? Do you really believe a higher-skilled worker will stay in a minimum-wage job when a better position becomes available?
Many of the businesses in that area have adjusted by cutting benefits, free food, and retirement. Some anecdotal evidence has shown that tips are also down as consumers adjust to high prices.
The anonymous anecdotes, reported by an opponent of raising the minimum wage, count for more than the actual hiring of real people by real businesses? Especially when those were the exact same businesses which claimed they would reduce employment?
You probably also realize that many of the workers who gained governmental support before don’t get it now through food stamps etc. and so the overall affect on the economy through local redistribution is negative.
So, getting people off welfare is a bad thing now? Really?
At least you’re admitting the real cost of low wages for the rest of us.
The Seatac example is specious.
Google’s first definition of “specious” is “superficially plausible, but actually wrong.” That describes your arguments perfectly. Come back and try again when you have actual evidence to support your claims.
Katsstud says
Based on history, this is probably true, but the market doesn’t have the legs it once did and every cost increase affects stability.
Fred Bauer says
Not just the owners’ lives but the workers’ as well. Should they be the ones to decide whether the pay is acceptable or Mr. Foo?
jjdoe says
Government should stay out of business’ business? HA! Owners are drowning in Gov regulations. Some good, some not so good. There would be more profit if we got rid of health inspectors. How ’bout that idea?
This is some weird far-Reich site. Nothing here is believable. But looking online, I see labor at 35% and profit at 4-6% is normal. But I’d like to see that labor figure for just the workers, and not management and owners.
Jorge says
Restaurants are easy to regulate. If a restaurant made you sick, put a review on yelp saying the food makes you sick. Diners will read the review and eat at their own risk. Of people continue to get sick, they will continue to post negative reviews and the restaurant will stop making money. The owner will either improve the conditions or go out of business. There, regulated.
That guy says
Hopefully, you are the one who gets sick and misses work for two days because of this type of “regulation”! Post your review while puking. Get serious, dude!
Edward Royce says
That -is- the labor cost for workers.
Edward Royce says
That -is- the labor cost for workers.
KB says
Owners don’t generally take wages.
Their “income” is profit and certain business expenses like a car used for that biz. Comments such as this indicate a significant lack of business acumen. Bottom line, when costs increase (regardless of from where), prices necessarily also increase. The number of people who will continue to patronize a given establishment will be reduced by the number who will find the new prices ‘unaffordable’, leaving a smaller number of customers. Fewer customers translates directly to the need for fewer employees. If the impact is large enough (small neighborhood restaurant for example), that location could easily become unprofitable and the owner rightly closes the doors. The employees have NO job and fewer opportunities to find them in your city.
Katsstud says
Facts are merely an inconvenience to such people KB. They will never accept what their political masters refute and will not spend the time or have an open mind to the truth even if they have no basis for knowing it.
Katsstud says
You make little sense jjdoe, Yes, we all want to get rid of health inspectors…ugh. If you have never run a business, you would have no idea how expensive it is, but that should mean you need to educate before you prevaricate.
Vinnie Garbone says
Every liberal I cross seems to wholeheartedly believe that every business owner small or large is balling out of control playing Ducktales and swimming in money.
chunky says
Jesus Christ! Duck Tales! I nearly fell off the toilet. I used to love that show.
BoomerJAZZ78 says
Foo is NOT stupid! He is willfully, arrogantly ignorant. Bad policy drives out good money. People choose to live in poverty in expensive areas for intangible benefits such as surf or sunsets. Others choose to emigrate from areas suddenly unfriendly to their capital, e.g., the exodus from CA to TX, which is accelerating at this moment. Foo will attack them as capitalist bastards, but exit they will whether Foo likes it or not. McDonalds robot will still serve Foo when all the wonderful, quirky neighborhood restaurants are gone.
ecec55 says
Have you ever signed the front of a pay check?? No! At $15.00 an hour the employer is really paying $22.00 an hour because at that pay increases so does the payroll taxes L&I/B&O, Medicaid, SSAN taxes etc… That is business101. The margin of profit is gone. One quick question. Why do you think people take the chance and open a business? To make money! What’s the use. You asshats think the world owes you and you don’t give a shit about anyone except yourself! I thinks that’s called Narcissism!
rightwingrick says
Maybe if people can’t pay those who make them money a living wage, they shouldn’t go into business???? Nobody owes the business owner anything either, do they? At least, that seems the logic in play here.
Michael Capanelli says
Wow, there’s absolutely no logic in what you posted except maybe to yourself and anyone else that isn’t capable of reasoning beyond what they feel is right. Its not about the owners ability to pay the workers a living wage but the profitability of the business at these new wages. I don’t even know what assumptions your making with your post but no matter what they are they’re beyond naive. If the business isn’t profitable (meaning the owner can’t make a living doing it) then it either closes or doesn’t get off the ground. Assuming he’s not a millionaire philanthropist opening a restaurant for shits and giggles, he needs to draw a salary to compensate for his investment and that will eventually reward his efforts and sacrifice.
What you end up doing is discouraging small businesses from opening and running ones with tight profit margins (meaning the big bad greedy owners aren’t making much of a living to begin with) out of business. The businesses that are left are forced to raise their prices to compensate for the additional labor costs, thus nullifying your “living wage” and bringing us back to this place yet again in the not too distant future. Wow….just wow.
dustyoutlaw says
Since when are business guaranteed a profit to stay in business? You don’t care if a worker can pay his bills. I don’t care if a business can’t pay their bills. If 1,000 restaurants go out of business then the other 29,000 make more profit. That’s called Capitalism You right wing pyschos need to stop pretending you’re in favor of Capitalism. You don’t even know what Capitalism is.
ricter says
This is the stupidest thing I have ever read in my entire life.
I am totally speechless.
G Trieste says
No, it is not Capitalism when the State causes artificial expenses in order to redistribute wealth from the bourgeois to the proletarians.
Businesses that are guaranteed to lose money by such a socialist scheme, are guaranteed to go out of business.
Paul Blazewick Jr. says
you #ExtremistLeftWingNuts need to stop acting like you care about people because you only care about ‘feelings’ or ‘does it feel good’ without regard to the consequences. this is prima facie evidence.
newsflash binky! business owners go into business to provide a needed product or service AND to provide for their families. anything else is ancillary.
BobGuy says
Well… GM ring a bell? I guess you have to be “too big to fail”. Your local eatery does not qualify. Our next car is probably going to be a Ford.
BobGuy says
Are there 30,000 restaurants in Seattle? Far out. So, with about 700,000 residents, and 30,000 restaurants, there are 23.3 people supporting, and / or employed by, each restaurant. What’s that about Capitalism that you were going to teach us?
Miss Trixie says
Sheesh. Another stupid, f*cking idiot. Seems the Northwest is simply crawling with these ill-educated wastes of oxygen. No worries though, as soon as you reach Detroit’s status, you mush-heads can all commiserate together in your beloved Utopia that you created with idiotic laws.
F*cking idiots.
Katsstud says
Seattle used to be a pretty nice place…oh well.
Mr. H says
wow – so the government forcing people of out business is capitalism? This country is doomed.
Katsstud says
Dusty is just another ignorant idiot who has invested too much in identifying with a dead philosophy. Religiously ideological people don’t let facts and logic stand in the way of a childish rant.
steve says
There is no guarantee any business will make money. That includes other restaurants when some go out of business. With that line of thinking carriage businesses that remain in business would be laughing all the way to the bank after the other carriage businesses went out of business. Market forces change and just because a certain amount of money was spent on an item last month does not mean the same amount of money will be spent on that item this month.
Bakii says
I’ll make sure to save this comment as it shows just how much demofash are against small businesses and workers and favor corporate interests indirectly.
Katsstud says
Ah the childish name calling with a specious argument thrown in for good measure. I find it especially funny that you mention capitalism as a hammer when you support little about its nature. Capitalism doesn’t mean what you think it does….
PopulistPolly says
If profitability relies on the criteria of “can you make a living,” then that goes to show that this minimum wage is perfectly fine. Most chain restaurant owners rake in 100s of thousands of dollars. We see owners and CEOs raking in millions yet shouting “Wah wah I cant pay my employees anymore without cutting jobs and hours or we wont be profitable.” Thing is, they are most likely just bluffing. They could compensate costs with perhaps taking less off the top for themselves? Maybe people really only need 1 car or 1 house… I don’t know, but if “can I make a living” is the question by which we’re judging here, we should regulate ceo pay so they can “Make a living.” CEOs/owners shouldnt make over 100 grand, and if they do, that extra money on the top could be reused and invested in the business or the wages of the workers…
Mike D says
Maybe sports players shouldnt make over a 100 grand too right??
djgooky says
They can make how ever much they want. The NFL is 501 c 6 non-profit organization. No tax for them.
Snakepit6336 says
The NFL is 501 C, but not the teams or the players.
Katsstud says
Tired….
BobGuy says
All pro sports players should make no more than the cost of what they need, according to the assessment of PopulistPolly. That will make pro games affordable for the folks making a Living Wage. Also, stadium hot dogs cost nearly as much as the new Seattle minimum wage. This travesty MUST be regulated! No sports food item should cost more than 20% of minimum wage. Heck, I think getting the price of a hot dog down to $3 would be dandy. I hope that comes up as an issue in the next election.
Tammy says
Because now attending a sporting event and eating the food is a right? Gawd are you messed up. Next time you are out making a purchase, divide what you have in half and give it to someone less fortunate nearby….otherwise you are a greedy pig.
BobGuy says
Tammy, my dear… Glad we are on the same page. I would like cheaper hot dogs at the games, though. :o)
Manny Stockton says
hell yes. them and actors/actresses get WAYYYYY TOO MUCH for what they do
Snakepit6336 says
You are a loser hating the world because you have no skills. Don’t they have assisted suicide there also, I think you should do that and make your miserable life disapear
Manny Stockton says
Yeah, I’m a loser with 32 years of Tattooing, and running my own business. I make $75 an hour IN CASH. I also work 21 days in a row, 3x per year and make a comfortable $10,000 and change every 3 months, IN CASH…. I happen to have 2 very successful businesses, and MY choice is to not have employees. So, why don’t YOU go kill yourself.
Katsstud says
Then don’t go to movies….the only reason that a very few make good money is that their personal value affects revenue. No doubt producers would hire people like some of the commenters here at minimum wage instead if personal value did not exist.
Wayne says
What a clueless Jackass! Obvious this person has never ran a business there in lies the problem. The thousands of dollars that flow thru a business is not what a small business owner gets to keep, it is what he or she uses to pay his or her bills to stay in business, and oh yes the wages of of the one who wrote the article above. And oh yes if there is anything left, then maybe the small business owner will get paid!
I challenge the own who wrote this above article to start a small business and see how many millions of dollars you can stash away every month! After about one year see if you are rolling in doe or making a living!
Paul Blazewick Jr. says
wow what a dumbass reply. the topic is ‘locally owned restaurants’, not chain franchisees. do try and stay on topic. thank you.
(and i don’t know any franchise owner that makes 100s of thousands unless they have 12-15 stores minimum.)
Tammy says
There are very few franchise restaurants in Seattle. Or Walmarts……any chains with the exception of Seattle’s pride, coffee.
Katsstud says
Then its important to give concrete examples that are not anecdotal and based on something other than the wishful thinking of an ideologue.
Dwayne says
Lmao. Yeah, or they could be telling the truth. But you the man in calling their “bluff” at the risk of hundreds of others losing their jobs, but not yours.
Bakii says
Translation: bla bla bla ceos make too much money! Bla bla bla lets put a maximum wage!
Oh, populistpolly of course, with that name one would expect you to not have any knowledge of econ
Mary Robinson says
Do you????? With you writing a bunch of garbage I highly doubt it!
Bakii says
yeah im the one blabbering about bullshit not that typical msnbc watcher polly who just spews talking points based on “muh feels”
Katsstud says
Mary, please amuse us with your knowledge as argument instead of emotional reactions.
Stop Statism says
How about limiting what a Hollywood actor or actress can make to 100K per movie. That will never be considered.
BobGuy says
The old argument that you should decide what other folks need is steeped in Socialist and Communist doctrine. As far as I can tell the article focuses on the restaurant industry which is very competitive and operates at a thin margin. Your example is focused on large corporations, but the Seattle restaurant that is facing an operational cost increase is competing with other sources of meals, whether customers decide to stay home, go to a cheaper national chain, or drive outside of Seattle to a joint that offers a similar dining experience but doesn’t cost as much. This is business in the USA, and YOU don’t get to decide what the business owner, or anybody else, needs. What decides is the MARKET.
Hoffa says
If you think living off minimum wage is so easy and fair, then you go live off of it.
Mr. H says
You are not suppose to live off of minimum wage. Do excellent work, increase your skills, get a raise or seek better employment.
Next time you go to work, try working.
Jackwagon says
Hoffa,
I made a choice many years ago that I didn’t want to live off minimum wage, so I went to college (which resulted in me working during school and taking out student loans, which I paid back), got a degree in a field that prepared me for the working world. I worked very hard to get where I am now. I still work at least 10 hrs per day and I work from home on most weekends. But I know that is what is needed to do my job. If I don’t want to do that, I know I can go get a job that will be less time intensive, but I will be paid less. See, it’s about the choices I am prepared to make.
If you don’t like where you are in life, YOU can change that. If you want to get paid more money, YOU can choose to improve yourself. If your employer is not paying you what you feel you are worth, go find another job! With the mentality of many who are posting on here, surely there are businesses who are looking for people who willing to work hard for an honest wage, because it appears that most of you are not.
Katsstud says
My brief experience in the “restaurant business” occurred when I was in college and did little for me but to confirm I had no interest in remaining there. Most of the people I met with significant history in the business had little skill, education, or work ethic, and they spent much of their time complaining about the owners, their pay, and cheap customers. My story is anecdotal, but I find it hard to believe it is not indicative of most people in retail and supported by my interaction with them over the years.
KB says
Polly: One invalid postulation leads you down a rabbit hole from which you cannot escape. Just as the saying goes “a rising tide lifts all ships”, an artificial increase in the ‘minimum wage’ of an economy does have many unintended consequences, including inflation. And what is inflation, the ever-increasing COST for good and services. If you aren’t old enough to remember the impact of inflation in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s, check out the affects of the economic policies of the Carter administration (which took several years of counter-egalitarian policies to repair). In those days, mortgages were often over 15% interest rates. Creating a ‘minimum wage’ is also a pall on young, inexperienced workers. Have you never heard a young person who is seeking a job complain they can’t get that first job because every interview includes a ‘requirement’ of experience? It would do many on this forum good to take a business owner to lunch and genuinely ask questions about these matters. But that may take a mind open to an alternative point of view. THAT is the big struggle.
reepotomac says
Raising the minimum wage won’t cause inflation by itself. The costs to employers who keep those workers will rise, and they may pass some of that cost onto customers, but to the extent that customers keep buying those things at a higher price, they will have less money for other things, decreasing the demand for those other things, causing the prices of those other things to drop.
Katsstud says
It is more likely that with tight margins, the owners will pass most of the costs on and pare down the number of workers to maintain their margins. Owners constantly analyze whether their business model is sustainable and many will likely decide that it is not due to the inability to maintain service, value, and financial return. Allowing prices to rise is inflationary in the restaurant market at least and will affect the ability of the consumer to buy that product.
Your assumption on price drops is generally unsupportable in a modern market. Your premise might be true in high margin markets, but most consumer markets are not. Retailers are buying from the least expensive sources and are forced by competition to battle based on price point. There is no doubt additionally that many of these markets would also be affected by a rise in labor cost and would be unable to support current price structures in the same fashion. In the end, it is highly likely that general inflation will work through the system and drive all prices higher. Companies that recruit to the State will have to offer higher wages to support competitive lifestyles and we will be back in roughly the same position due to a reduction in overall spending power.
There is nothing that supports a minimum wage as the answer to the unskilled. In the end the same workers will occupy the same rung on the economic ladder regardless.
KB says
The price drop you propose will happen will only happen if the cost still allows a profit. Without profit, the company in your illustration will not stay in business either. You really don’t get it do you.
reepotomac says
I said “other things:. follow your line of thought away from “the company” and out into the world of “other things”.
KB says
Explain where or to whom money spent on ‘other things’ would go unless it was to the company or person in business who provides it?
reepotomac says
i keep using plural. You keep using singular..
reepotomac says
I keep talking plural. You keep talking singular. And money doesn’t just go somewhere. It might stay put and go nowhere, and if it goes somewhere it has to come from somewhere. It can’t be spent twice. .
Karen says
She admits redistribution of wealth is the answer this conceding her belief in Marxism. It scares me such ignorance has the power of a vote.
sotto voce says
In Obama’s and Elizabeth Warren’s immortal words “At some point, you’ve made enough money…” And who gets to decide how much that is? People like Obama, who surely won’t be stinting on golf vacations and private jets when he finally leaves office, and Warren, whose net worth is $8.5 million and who owns two houses? You can be sure that whatever number they come up with, it won’t apply to people like them. Economics may be called the dismal science, but life itself will be pretty dismal for all of us if your brand of willful economic ignorance destroys the free markets that have made the US the wealthiest nation in history.
Bandit Keena says
Since they’ve invested their money and take all the risk it’s really none of your business. You can choose to spend your money elsewhere.
Jackwagon says
How do you know that “Most chain restaurant owners rake in 100s of thousands of dollars.”? And even if they do, they work incredibly long hours. Also, who are you to decide that CEOs/owners shouldn’t make over 100 grand? Wow, reading the some of the posts on here prove that the rise of socialism is far worse than anyone thought and the future of this country is dim.
Ilpalazzo says
So you believe in corporatism? Because the point of all of this $15/hr and increase health coverage is that ONLY CORPORATIONS CAN AFFORD IT! Small businesses CAN’T. That is the point! Do you want to be a slave drone to totalitarian corporatism?
Katsstud says
I would suggest that mandated minimum wages have contributed greatly to the rise in corporate chains and the reduction of sustainable small business in many retail sectors.
steve says
I’d like to suggest be become a chain restaurant owner. I understand it is an easy way to make 100s of thousands of dollars. If you think it would be wise, you could even take anything over a 100k and reinvest it in the business or pay hirer wages. Maybe you are just making numbers up that sound good for what you are trying to say.
Southernationalist says
Well, in my business if I am going to be restricted to a certain amount of income no matter how much I make, then I will cut back to my most profitable accounts and get rid of all my employees. Why put yourself out and endure aggravation and risk if you won’t obtain any additional reward for your efforts. I cannot believe morons like yourself are allowed to vote. You are completely lacking in both common sense and logic.
Jeffrey Wellman says
Popuislpolly please go and find a communist country to live in, you will fit it very well there. A business owner is entitled to to the money they receive. They risk their money in order to make more, If you are saying that they should make no more than an employee then you will find very few places to work because no one will risk their own money just to make a wage that they pay their employees. What all you fair wage people fail to realize is it is up to the employee to make themselves worth more to an employer in order to earn more. No one in the world owes you anything, not food, not water, not money, not healthcare – you are owed nothing by anyone. It is up to you to make yourself worth something to someone else so they will paying you money for your skills. If you have no skills then be prepared for a very hard short life, even in communist countries you live a very hard life and they provide the bare minimum required for you to live on, no cars, no vacations, little food, very small place to live. why, because even a communist government realizes the value of money and refuses to give it to the masses that are doing nothing to earn it.
Katsstud says
The fact that you say “most likely” means you have no basis for your argument and rely on the statements of others which synch with your ideology. Buying into populist illogical nonsense has its shortcomings. Your lack of knowledge of business structure and costs are clear, but your entitlement mentality is fully vested. CEOs are rarely substantive owners in large companies. They are hired to affect the success of a company which typically counts their revenues in the billions. Paying someone millions to keep the company relatively strong and ensuring the earning opportunities for hundreds of thousands of employees is both logical and oozes common sense for everyone. Class envy and misplaced emotional ideology does not make sense to the long term health of a business or its employees, regardless what the self-absorbed political masters and their sheep purport to be true.
Funny how “raking in” to some means “earning it” to others. You make the comment about “owners” limiting their income and lifestyle based on a subjective analysis of their needs while ignoring the hypocrisy of calling them owners. In your scenario they own nothing, but are merely keepers at the whims of the unknowledgeable. Do you understand what risk/reward means, or is the answer to life’s issues merely to have other people solve them for you? These “owners” provide a vehicle for opportunity, take all the risks, have probably tried and failed numerous times, know what a business model is, and yet to you they are merely vessels for your ideological religion.
Stevie Kolber says
What the bleep is a living wage? Another liberal code word that means absolutely nothing. Please define living wage!!!!!
djgoomy says
COL cost of living= living wage.
someguyontheinternet says
Since COL is different everywhere, there shouldn’t be a federal minimum wage then right? Or it should be set at the lowest COL levels
Dwayne says
Exactly. That’s what most people don’t get. $15/hour in many places makes you among the highest paid. And working at McDonald’s should not make you wealthy. It’s just pure ignorance of economics.
Manny Stockton says
as is trickle down Reganomics
Jeffrey Wellman says
Actually no it is not tickle down, this is an attempt to trickle up which will fail in a glorious fashion.
Ilpalazzo says
And the people with 15/hr jobs aren’t automatically getting boosted to $25/hr so now they’re on par with McDonald’s burger flippers.
Dwayne says
Cost of Living is a statistic. Living wage is a totally subjective idea. Please do not state anything further about business until you get an education in business or you run one.
Patrick D. Foster says
dumb as hell. cost of living based on what? I need ribeye’s and caddy’s. my COL is $81,000. I don’t make that. Should i be complaining to my government?
Cliff Wells says
Indeed. Now flip your equation: living wage = cost of living. Or multiply the wage by two, and notice that you must also multiply the other by two. That’s the thing about an equality. If you increase one, then the other must also increase. Applied here, if you increase the minimum wage, the cost of living will increase proportionately. That is the fundamental reason imposed wage increases (as distinct from market-driven ones) do not work.
You may as well claim that if you’re running out of gas, the best thing to do is drive faster to reach the next gas station sooner.
Katsstud says
Living wage…subjective and based on specious premises.
Dwayne says
It’s a wage that totally differs not only on where you live but how you live. It’s totally subjective and thus garbage.
Stevie Kolber says
Exactly Wayne…Thank you!
Manny Stockton says
A living wage is one where you can afford the average rent payment, required utilities including phone and internet ( one cannot get a job without a phone, and cannot appky for jobs without internet as companies do not even take apps on paper anynore), mandatory health care insurance, car insurance, child care, food, etc.
reepotomac says
If you think the government can “give” people a living wage by passing a law, why don’t you push for a “luxury wage” by passing a better law?
BradenLynch says
Exactly, why not $100 an hour for a no talent dish washer?
No, make that $1000 an hour so they can all drive a Mercedes and live in a mansion.
Doesn’t everyone deserve a free education, universal healthcare and a living wage of 15/hour or more, and so on?
Doesn’t money just grow on trees?
They will damage or destroy the restaurant industry, but this socialist nonsense tends to self-correct when hard economic realities exert themselves.
steve says
so there should not be anymore jobs for people just starting in the work place or elevated wages for elevated amount of skills? Why don’t we make living wage $100k/ year so everyone can own a really nice house and new cars every 2 years?
Snakepit6336 says
Go to the library and use their computer
cheeflo says
None of that is the responsibility of the employer.
Stevie Kolber says
In what city, town, borough?
Southernationalist says
A living wage is one that allows a leftist to only work twenty hours a week.
Snakepit6336 says
And have a new car, Xbox, a big TV, an iPhone with unlimited data, and money to buy weed.
cheeflo says
20 whole hours! Man, what a drag!
Devin W Congema says
Nobody is forcing you to eat at “x” place or even work at “x” place. Why are people who advocate minimum wage such fascists just let people VOLUNTARILY keyword “voluntarily” negotiate a wage amongst each other. You either accept it or you go work somewhere else.
freedom247 says
Exactly, here’s a great video on that point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j01L69eXdI
Katsstud says
Because that would be too hard and buck against their poor work ethic and entitlement mentality.
Steve says
Ummm….That’s precisely what the article is discusses. They can’t afford to pay them so they’re going to close shop.
G Trieste says
Well apparently that decision is being made for them.
“Business” under these conditions is no longer self-sustaining, so they just as easily go out of business. The smart ones do it based upon the new artificially imposed costs dynamic, and shut down preemptively before they lose their nest egg trying to swim upstream.
Michael says
Nobody does owe the business owner anything, that is true. That is why they pay people. An exchange of value for value. If a business owner thinks your job is worth minimum wage to him/her, then it is up to you to show him/her different if you want more. You don’t owe it to the owner, you owe it to yourself if you want to make more money.
ecec55 says
Bull! You have no idea what your talking about. Good businesses don’t make by either being poorly run or by government over regulations. If you sell your products and don’t have a huge profit margin you either have to increase your volume or cut your over head. Fast food, especially a franchise has no control how much you charge. Going from $9 /hr to $15/hr is a death sentence.
Dwayne says
And if you ever studied business or owned a business or ran a business you would know better than to make such a naive statement.
Katsstud says
None of them do. It is easier to read childish ideological blogs that cater to their insecurities than to truly understand the issue.
Vinnie Garbone says
“Living wage” is the biggest load of horse shit. A single 18 year old living with his parent is going to have a totally different living wage than a single mother with 4 children.
If you’re brain dead enough to make human beings you can’t afford to keep alive, I can’t simply destroy my business because of the mistakes you made in life.
Katsstud says
One thing I guarantee to all these armchair economists who think a living wage is anything but a pipe dream. Give one of these employees such a raise and see how little it changes their reality.
David R says
If a person that volunteers to be an employee of a business owns that business nothing then the business owes them nothing in return.
Mr. H says
Are you that ignorant?
what happens when there are no businesses with entry level jobs for people to learn their first labor skills?
I started at McDonalds, $3.35 an hour. I learned how to work. I got raises and made more $. Eventually I sought more education and better employment. That is how the system is suppose to work.
adam says
So the fact that my servers and bartenders make 60k a year in tips I should pay them a 65 percent 8n crease on minumum wage is bull garbage unskilled employees do not deserve to be handed skilled labor wages. Since when has minumum wage paid for a lovely hood never work 2 jobs I did the majority of my life
Southernationalist says
Right and just wait and see how many businesses move out of Seattle or close altogether. Seattle will see a drop in economic activity and a corresponding drop in tax revenue.
Fleagus Gustafario says
Nobody owes anybody anything…that’s the problem, we owe and own people…it would be better to just work together as a team, if it’s not right, leave the team, if it’s not right now, but it’s right later, rejoin the team, if you create something successful that the team helped build, share the wealth. We need to get away from our overly strict business/dollar based mindset.
Really business is simple, it’s about providing a service when there is demand for that service and nobody is providing it, or maybe you can provide the service better. If you do that, the money will follow…I use a very classic strategy.
Even if my business only made $1 at the end of the year, after everybody paid me, and I paid everybody and all my bills…that’s still a success because you’ve generated an engine that goes into the net plus. Of course I want to make more than that, but I only see the business side as a way of covering my costs and then the extra is put toward higher goals (investment). For example I want to make a videogame, that’s what I’m passionate about…but it might be a money pit…I don’t know, but I want to do it. So I use my business fixing glitchy software as a way to fund my endeavor of making a game.
Too many businesses are all about the money, and the result is that they lose their edge because they don’t experiment or innovate, they just get more money from the one niche they’ve been able to exploit.
I’ve only been able to survive by being a generalist, whatever the task, we’ll at least try…and that gets us pretty far.
I’ve worked at lots of jobs, corporate too… I aim to be the anti-corporation. We make money we generate wealth, but we use it a lot differently than corporations. Let’s do something cool and futuristic.
cheeflo says
And the business doesn’t owe anyone anything either, except what is voluntarily agreed upon. Goes both ways.
peterjohn936 says
People who work for nothing buy nothing. Businesses have no customers and go out of business anyway.
Fleagus Gustafario says
Yep, totally true. I am a small business owner, I pay well above minimum…It’s totally possible! Not sure how anybody was able to start a business with such a defeatist attitude.
Dwayne says
And what if some government agency decided you still weren’t paying enough. So now they want you to pay $7.50/hr more for each worker. Still think that’s a good deal? And what you deem “well above minimum” is totally subjective. It also depends on what type of business you run. How much do you pay per hour? How many employees do you have? Are they each paid that wage? For how long do they make that wage? Do you give raises? How much? How often? Do you provide healthcare? Do you provide paid days off for holidays? Do you have full time or part time workers or a combination? Do you provide full pay for sick days? Do you provide sick days? How many sick days? What is the focus of your business? Where is your business located? What is the tax rate for your business? What is it for your employees? What is the poverty rate in your area? What is the average wage in your area? Are you competitive with other similar businesses? Is your business high end? Is your business low end? There are a thousand questions you need to answer in order to set your employee wages. The fact that you have made only 1 statement about wages, which showed no thought of any of the questions a knowledgeable owner would ask themself in determining wages is a clue as to your skill in operating a business. And since your statement on the wages you pay is completely subjective, it could be $0.75/hr more than minimum wage and still be considered a valid statement, but completely misleading at the same time.
Fleagus Gustafario says
I don’t have any employees. I do all contract labor. So I’m a freelancer, teaching people how to be freelancers, they are independent, we just work together…so there is not the burden actually of an hourly wage, I don’t own them, we just both work together and we both benefit. An employee/employer relationship is kind of like slavery-lite in my eyes.
When it’s contract labor we can form custom terms for any arrangement basically. Seems like the way to go for me…But I am not cheap and I pay well for what I ask.
BobGuy says
You cannot equate what you do to running a restaurant. Your examples do not apply. Your argument is specious.
Fleagus Gustafario says
They apply in some respects, not all. Just as another business owner. Sure it’s a different industry but many of the same principles still apply. You might even have two different restaurant owners who disagree too.
Katsstud says
Nonsense…thanks for playing.
Fleagus Gustafario says
I fear for the future of our country. People like you are in the majority..knee jerk emotional reactions. No goals, no ideas, just judgement. Screw that. Thanks for playing.
Katsstud says
I was thinking the same thing about you. How ironic.
Fleagus Gustafario says
Not sure how I’ve done that, I’ve been having a decent and honest discussion this whole time and you’re just swinging out insults.
Katsstud says
Insults…must have missed that part. You aren’t listening to anyone while continuing the implication that your personal example is germane to the discussion…it isn’t.
You may pay those you work with more, but place the liabilities covered by the average business back on the employee. Although they certainly feel thankful for not being a “slave (pretty insensitive and inaccurate metaphor BTW),” they don’t gain much else from what you have stated. I suspect that tax laws will prevent workers from applying your example to most workplaces given the requirements placed on the worker by the employer.
Cliff Wells says
Interesting: you pay above minimum wage, but you lay the entire tax burden on the contractor, who, after taxes will now likely be making much less than a minimum wage employee? You also don’t pay for their insurance, unemployment, etc. It also means that you don’t need to pay them when there’s no work, unlike a regular employer.
There’s a reason contractors get paid more per hour than an employee. Employees do not endure the “feast or famine” cycle a contractor does. Perhaps you should compare the net yearly income of your contractors with that of a minimum wage employee before you start claiming the high road. If your contractors still make more, then it’s clear they have skills that exceed that of the minimum wage employee. Your point is invalid.
Fleagus Gustafario says
Why should I have to pay for their insurance? They are independent, I don’t own them, they aren’t my slave. They take in income, and pay taxes on their income, just like I take in my income and pay taxes on mine.
I want universal healthcare, so that businesses are freed up from having to pay for their worker’s healthcare and hence can pay them more.
For the people who work with me, often they will work somewhere else too and this is kind of like a side job. They make as much as a minimum wage, full time worker, but they work 1-3 days a week. Also they want to learn IT when they don’t know it so they learn it with on the job training…nobody else is even willing to do that at all…everybody that worked with me ended up thanking me because my model leaves them more freedom in their life, they can do their own thing and make enough to at least get by…when more activity comes in their pay will go up.
I’m not taking the high road, just explaining a model that I am using that works for the level it’s at, I need more activity for sure, but then it all goes up.
The raw income is one factor, but while a minimum wage employee has to slave away for 40-50 hours a week doing something that’s not fulfilling, this is like an apprenticeship, part time, that pays as much as if you were working full time at a low paying job. It’s actually a good deal, it’s just not conventional.
I go through the feast and famine cycle, sometimes I need just myself to get everything done, and sometimes I need 3-4 people. If I have employees then I would have gone out of business by now because business comes in large bursts. Every single year we make more money though and customer and worker satisfaction is through the roof. Slow and steady wins the race.
Also because I’ve helped people learn the field, they are now getting contract jobs doing things outside of my business, so basically I’m teaching people how to be self-employed through IT…So glad it’s working.
http://s31tech.org
Cliff Wells says
“Why should I have to pay for their insurance? They are independent, I don’t own them, they aren’t my slave. They take in income, and pay taxes on their income, just like I take in my income and pay taxes on mine.
I want universal healthcare, so that businesses are freed up from having to pay for their worker’s healthcare and hence can pay them more.”
Interesting. So basically you’re subscribing to the “I got mine, Jack” theory that libertarians are always accused of. I really enjoy how you ask “Why should I have to pay for their insurance”, and immediately follow that with “I want universal healthcare”. So… where do you suppose the money for universal healthcare comes from?
Why do you think it makes sense for employers to be required to pay minimum wage, but not pay for healthcare?
Also, are you just trolling? If you are, well done, but you’re starting to show your hand.
Fleagus Gustafario says
No I am not like Libertarians at all. I want a nationalized healthcare system so that your boss doesn’t have any say in your birth control, and so that somebody who has nothing to do with your health is responsible for managing it.
Businesses can be more competitive, and regular people can have better healthcare outcomes…also if you lose your job or you change jobs, you don’t lose your ability to get medical care.
I work in the medical industry, I have for 8 years. Pretty much most nurses, staff, and doctors want a single payer system, it makes things far less complicated, healthcare costs less for people, and outcomes are better. Seems logical to me.
I want everybody to have theirs. I’d like to have a guaranteed personal income program, where we completely eliminate the cap on social security, and everybody gets social security…and if you work, you’d just be getting 2000 a month extra on top. Imagine how much that would change our economy.
The money for universal healthcare comes from those who have the most ability to pay. So billionaires pay the most, the poor don’t pay anything, and the middle class pays less than they pay now.
reepotomac says
Birth control? Insurance is for unplanned events. Birth control is very much planned and predictable. Birth control shouldn’t be covered by any insurance , except there is no real health insurance for sale in the US. It is all “Make someone else pay”.
cheeflo says
No one’s boss has anything to say about birth control. Anyone can employ any method desired. Offering coverage for “only” 16 methods of BC instead of 20 does not prevent anyone from choosing from those methods not offered. The real question is who pays for it?
The employer has no moral obligation to provide benefits on demand. Employers choose the benefits they believe are best for their own interests as well as their employees.
You think the federal government won’t interfere with your life and health under nationalized health care? Government-provided health care is hardly the sterling benchmark you portray it as. Ask any veteran.
Where do you think the money to pay for everyone’s guaranteed personal income will come from? Government has no money of its own. It’s all seized wealth. I have no interest or desire in assuming the expense of contributing to the support of anyone who doesn’t work, unless that person is close to me.
Creating perverse incentives like “free” health care for the poor will only ensure that they remain poor. But then, a permanent underclass is fodder for the statists.
Fleagus Gustafario says
Hobby Lobby had something to say about Birth Control, and they won with the Supreme Court…Because Hobby Lobby as a for profit company has firmly held religious beliefs, they are able to deny birth control to their employees which was already covered under their healthcare plan. Pretty dumb.
Fleagus Gustafario says
A couple of pills are pretty damn cheap. Why the hell do we keep itemizing everything that exists in this world and saying “how are we going to pay for it?”. It’s like “we had napkins at this event, how are we going to pay for it?” or “I got us 3 cans of Dr. Pepper, how are we going to pay for it?”
It’s all stuff that’s super cheap that somehow we can’t pay for…but 2 massive decade long wars with trillions of dollars down the tube, no problem.
Galaxy Girl says
Thank you! Employers shouldn’t even be involved in an employee’s health care. It’s an odd concept. Just pay your workers (employees or contractors) enough to choose their own medical plans, and it sounds like you’re doing just that.
As for the restaurants closing because of minimum wage “hiking” to $15 an hour… You aren’t successful, increase your food prices. Figure out a way to pay your workers a living wage, or you really shouldn’t be in business. With all the small minded people who think “What will change is that fewer people will be able to afford to dine out, and as a result there will be fewer great restaurants to enjoy”. Think big picture! If people are paid well, then YES they will be able to afford to eat out. Increased minimum wage is good for the economy. How is that a hard to understand?
cheeflo says
But it’s okay if the government is involved? Health insurance as an employment benefit is a direct result of government interference in the market. Post-WWII wage and price freezes prevented employers from paying higher wages, so health insurance was offered instead. The rest is history.
cheeflo says
It also means they pay a higher rate as self-employment tax than an employee, who pays only half of FICA.
bak says
Employer/employee is like slavery? Are you serious? You’re a freakin nut. I’m curious how you would define our current relationship with an oppressive, indebted, omnipresent government?
Julie Nunn Robinson says
“I don’t have any employees. I do all contract labor;” With those 2 statements you demonstrate you don’t understand that is apples vs oranges to the discussion.
Fleagus Gustafario says
I do understand it’s different, but I only set up my model this way because it’s simpler and I can actually focus on doing the job. If I had millions coming in my model would be different, all I can say is the people that work for me are happy, the customers are happy, and we all make money.
We have to be more flexible in an economic environment that’s this unstable.
I totally understand my situation is different. But it’s not exactly apples to oranges. It’s like unless my business is literally the same business as the one in the article, I have nothing worthwhile to say right? It all doesn’t matter because my business is different…
But what about you? Do you own a business? Why is what you’re saying more valid than somebody that actually runs a business? It’s good that we have different models.
cheeflo says
Your business model works for you and your offering. It is not typical.
You easily prescribe for others that which you do not provide and are not subject to. Is that to assuage your conscience?
Ilpalazzo says
Your name wouldn’t happen to be Pat McCormick, would it? Contract labor out of Tampico?
DoucheWaffel says
Okay, so you use a temp service. He thinks because he contracts out at 12 to 14 per/ hr ,when they get paid 8 that it’s fair and above average. You are one cool dude! They have less workers rights than anyone on minimum wage.
Fleagus Gustafario says
I use a temp service? No I don’t…I teach people directly who want to learn the field of Information Technology, they come to me, they say “do you have a job?”. I say “No I don’t have a full time job for you, but I am willing to teach you and pay you for stuff that comes in, so you can learn it”.
I pay them directly from me, I don’t call up Kelly services or some crap.
I pay about $1500 a month for 2 days a week worth of work. If they were working full time, they would be making about $9/hr.
Since I don’t need full time, and I don’t want to subject them to 40 hours a week under my thumb, they end up making about $50-65/hr based on the amount of time they work. But we are super efficient and get things done quickly, they are VERY MOTIVATED at that rate. Here’s my site:
http://s31tech.org
linda says
you better hope they don’t get hurt at you place they can sue you.your not as bright as you think and all you are doing I trying to get more sucker to call you for work cheap bastard
Fleagus Gustafario says
Not sure where all this hostility is coming from. I’m in my mid 20’s in the first 5 years of my business, making it work how I can. It’s like I have to be totally successful and rich to start, but if I start small and move up from there, then suddenly I’m a cheap bastard? Why would I overextend myself and hire people for 40 hours a week when I couldn’t pay them? Where’s this thing called flexibility out there?
cheeflo says
Congratulations. You’ve found a business model that works for you and your offering. It is not typical. I have no quarrel with it, per se. But a few more years of business growth and experience, and you may find that this model no longer serves, or that some new regulation comes along that renders your business model illegal or inadequate. You don’t know what you don’t know, and you don’t know that you don’t know it.
Fleagus Gustafario says
For sure, I try to know as much as I can but ultimately if I were to worry about every little threat then I’d never have started in the first place. I’ll do things that make sense and consequences be dammed. I haven’t run into any issues so far…but of course that could change at any moment.
Fleagus Gustafario says
No wonder our economy is soooo sluggish, everybody is too afraid to do anything because of liability. Nobody tries anything because there’s too many rules…I just choose not to worry about it. I don’t have any assets so nothing can really be taken away…I’ve been to court a few times before, it always works out as long as you study the law and find evidence to indicate you didn’t break it. I don’t agree with the laws but they are a reality and I follow them.
Galaxy Girl says
Linda, not to be a jerk, but you shouldn’t accuse someone of not being “bright” when your grammar makes you sound like a juggalo.
cheeflo says
Under your thumb? I thought it was under your tutelage?
So, 2 days a week at $1,500/month is $187.50/week plus the entire tax burden and no benefits. Nine bucks an hour for 40 hours yields $360/week, employer-shared tax burden, and maybe benefits like paid time off, paid holidays, insurance, etc. Either way, it’s entirely voluntary between the parties. No coercion.
I would add that contract houses are not crap. I work in a volatile industry that often has layoffs, and I have found contract houses to be invaluable — I have always found permanent work in my chosen field when I’ve aligned with a contract house.
Fleagus Gustafario says
It’s not employment, they do other things for work too, it’s extra money, a booster. That’s why they aren’t employees. They all know what they are getting into and they like it just fine.
reepotomac says
There is no such thing as worker’s rights. What you’d call worker’s rights is stuff that the government forces other people to give to workers. It sounds fair when they are called rights.
Jeremy says
If you are using temporary contract labor it’s not an apples to apples comparison. If you are employing people as “independent contractors” you are very likely violating state and federal wage laws to skirt paying the employer portion of the tax burden. Independent contractors have very strict tests to meet and most do not.
linda says
so true if they don’t pay their people you contract the job out to don’t carry insurance you better have it if they don’t pay workman comp you get to pay it, theirs all kind of laws I bet you are breaking the Mexicans in Oregon want $35.00 house to do yard woek fk them.
Galaxy Girl says
Linda, you’re a crazy person. After reading comments you’ve left for others I hope you’re just a troll. Quit being a racist b!tch and learn to form sentences.
Snakepit6336 says
You are not an employer than, so STFU you asssshole. You pay no SS taxes, SSI taxes, disability taxes, health insurance, ect that employers have to pay. In fact, you are worse, by only using independents you are forcing those costs on them, and they have to pay the taxes twice – as an employee and employer. You are a hypocrite and a flea living off others.
Fleagus Gustafario says
Actually I do pay all that…it’s called the self-employment tax…I have to pay the whole thing instead of my employer covering half of mine.
Every year I have to pay lots of taxes, I don’t get a refund at all because I pay full SS taxes, not half.
Those costs are on me too. It’s basically a choice between hire people as contract labor and help them out with an extra 1500 or so each month, or they just totally have zero dollars coming in and I’m working 80 hours a week, that doesn’t make any sense to me…but I guess unless I can totally feed, house, and clothe them that I’m a total piece of shit for even sharing the extra work I have coming in.
linda says
I think the irs needsto visit you now you went from 2 days to 1 or 2 I have a friend who work for them
Fleagus Gustafario says
Why? I pay my taxes and follow all rules. IRS can audit me if they want, it all lines up.
Galaxy Girl says
Linda, how did you even get that out of his comment? Nice IRS threat. I’m sure your IRS friend will want to waste their time tracking down a person by their pen name, so they in turn can tell you he isn’t doing anything wrong. I can’t even make out half of your comments, by the way. I think your IRS friend needs to visit YOU so they can educate you a bit.
Adam Meyer says
shouldn’t the government be setting your terms for you since that is what you advocate for?
Fleagus Gustafario says
I imagine having a different government that works better than the government we have…I’m not naive enough to think that if you just removed all controls on everyone that suddenly we’d rocket toward a prosperous future..that’s incorrect..you’d have major chemical companies dumping sludge down the river, oil companies that would just let the oil pollute the river without cleaning it up…you’d have private armies…
We need regulations, but right now our system has been subverted so that those with everything are regulating regular people, and they are getting pissed, they will reject the Government because it’s easy to blame the government…but that’s exactly what the billionaires want. With government out of the way they will be free to operate unchecked, and the general population will suffer far more than they do now.
Cliff Wells says
” but right now our system has been subverted so that those with everything are regulating regular people, and they are getting pissed, they will reject the Government because it’s easy to blame the government…but that’s exactly what the billionaires want. With government out of the way they will be free to operate unchecked, ”
You just explained the problem quite clearly, but somehow you’re failing to reach the logical conclusion:
First off, how do “those with everything” regulate regular people? By using the government. With government out of the way, they would lose a powerful tool for protecting themselves. Incumbent corporations are the ones penning the regulations. Regulations certainly “restrain” corporations, but they place a heavier burden on startups and smaller companies who would provide competition to the incumbent corporations. Large, incumbent corporations have the advantage of more money to spend on compliance, and likely helped pen the very regulations they must abide by.
“When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.” ~ P.J. O’Rourke
Government is the tool of corporations. They use it to squash competition. Sure regulations hurt them as well, but it’s a strategic victory, because it hurts their competition more than it does themselves.
Lori Martin says
You are ripping people off, You may pay them what you think is great pay, but you are causing people to be in debt to the government and not have any benefits. Until you actually pay employees, DO NOT COMMENT on anything wage related. I have worked contract for 9 years and I’m speaking for experience. KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT on matters you KNOW NOTHING about.
lordoffantasy says
dude people are already in debt to the government without benefits to begin with.
Fleagus Gustafario says
I know a little something about them. All you have is assumptions and yelling. The only thing I have on my mind is more people with decent wages able to live a decent living or the good life. Why are there so many people that want others to suffer needlessly? Why do we have to be so greedy and selfish and judgmental? Why can’t we focus on the cutting edge and creating a better future? You’re all stuck in the past.
cheeflo says
If they’re suffering needlessly, why is it the responsibility of anyone else to ensure that they don’t? Declining to subsidize others is not a desire for their misery, nor is it greed.
A “decent wage” and the “good life” are rather subjective.
Fleagus Gustafario says
I don’t think it’s subjective. We can boil it down to basic human needs…we definitely need water or we’ll die in 3 days, we definitely need food or we’ll die in a month..then it goes up from there, to the point where people need a decently secure and peaceful environment, good health, economic opportunities, etc. In order for them to ultimately be a successful person.
Some people have this from the get-go because of their families, others grow up in a bad environment and have a harder time.
When we have the resources to help and we decide not to, I think that’s morally wrong. It’s like if the village is starving, and one guy owns a food warehouse with enough to feed the town for weeks, but he locks the door and says “NO THIS IS MY FOOD!” as everybody starves. The way wealth is distributed in this country is just like that. Everybody really can have a decent life.
cheeflo says
Employer/employee relationships are not “slavery lite.” They are voluntary agreements between the two parties. Slavery has a precise meaning, and working for a company that pays you an agreed-upon wage for agreed-upon work is not slavery.
Fleagus Gustafario says
Yeah that sounds good, but 8/10 jobs that I’ve worked for were pretty exploitative of their workers, it kind of felt like slavery-lite. Look at worker satisfaction in the country and it’s pretty low…it’s because of the exploitative, corporate work environment.
Companies tend to think about the bottom line alone, and push workers as hard as they can, for as little pay as possible. It’s not the best approach.
Paul Matrey says
Read your posts, below. “I pay well above minimum.” “Don’t have employees. Have contract labor.” So, you pay no taxes, no workmen’s comp., no bookkeeping, no insurances, it’s all left to them ? They assume all costs ? You are too generous.
Blank Reg says
Do you run a restaurant or other kind of service business? Or do you do something else with a much higher value-add, like in the tech sector, where you must hire more skilled help at a higher wage? Apple and oranges, mi amigo…
Fleagus Gustafario says
I work in Tech..yes I totally know restaurants are different…I’m only saying I have partial credibility because I own a business and pay people too..
You’ve got people talking about how the struggling restaurant owner is completely right, even though they don’t run any type of business either.
It’s like if it’s negative, it’s right, but if something positive might be done, it’s seen as not credible just because it’s different industry than the subject at hand. It’s all connected.
Business goes up for me too with a higher minimum wage because people will be able to afford websites, computers, and technical resources (me).
Steve from Oregon says
That depends completely on the product you are supplying. If you start a small business doing plumbing, you pay a lot more than minimum because skilled labor and the market requires that. McDonald’s employees should not be paid at such a rate.
Manny Stockton says
McDonalds can afford to pay more. As big as they are they and others can afford it
greetingsfromyonkers says
Really? Have you looked at their books? Read their annual reports?
Jennelea says
have you looked at their books? What makes you an authority. Remember these fast food places are Franchises, owned by local people, not Big business.
linda says
my broth in law got caught up in cold stone ice cream cost him $65,000 to get in had to buy all of their products plus every year had to pay $10,000 year fee he couldn’t make it with one store took his life saving got 2 more stores lost everything even his home so tell howq much did he make asshole,the only making the money wa the guy selling you a peace of it
cheeflo says
Maybe your brother is responsible for his own failures. Did you ever think of that? Not everyone is cut out to run a business.
Start-up businesses that fail often do so because of expansion, too much, too rapidly. Spending money on two more stores when he couldn’t make a go of one store isn’t a very good business decision.
reepotomac says
It doesn’t matter how much McDonald’s can pay. The issue is whether you think it is right to use people with guns to make them pay whatever.
Fleagus Gustafario says
There’s no guns, it’s just a law..the people come up with laws right? I don’t really agree with politicians doing it, but if the general people vote to increase it through democratic action, then yes I support it. But guns is overly dramatic really.
Cliff Wells says
Every government dictum is backed by the threat of force. It’s not dramatic, it’s mere fact. The government is a business like any other, and they sell two things: favors and force. If you don’t pay your taxes, they’ll take your property. If you defend your property, they’ll send men with guns to kidnap you. If you refuse to be kidnapped, they’ll kill you. Everything the state does has its logical conclusion in violence.
Democracy is not some magic bullet that makes things right. Slavery was democratic. Women not being allowed to vote was democratic. Democracy is mob rule. Granted, we have a democratic republic, which was intended to reduce the “mob rule” aspect of democracy. Our founding fathers hoped that we’d get the best features of democracy and check it with oligarchy, but we ended up with the worst features of both: a corrupt oligarchy pandering to the mob.
“Democracy? I want nothing to do with a system which operates on the premise that my rights don’t exist simply because I am outnumbered.” ~ R. Lee Wrights
Fleagus Gustafario says
Slavery is anti-democratic because slaves couldn’t vote…only the slavers could vote. Democracy is when it’s 1 person 1 vote and to where my vote matters just as much as yours.
The market isn’t a magic bullet either, things cost money that need to be done but they are a money pit sometimes, that’s what the State is for. Projects that need to be done but aren’t profitable, and take a lot of resources.
It’s the Republic that encourages mob rule because you literally have wealthy families pulling the strings in an oligarchic way. Thus creating crime families like the Bushes and the Clinton’s that we get to vote for. In a democracy my vote matters the same as Hillary Clinton. I can live with that.
Your future of abolishing the state only ensures that the wealthy and powerful will have absolute dictatorial control, with no public recourse. You can’t vote a CEO out of office as a customer. That’s your future.
cheeflo says
The State has appropriate functions, but they are limited. The State does not exist to ensure that everyone gets what they want. The State exists to protect our rights (which are not something the State gives us, they’re ours from the get-go), the property by maintaining an army (but not against its own citizenry), and adjudicate contracts through the courts. The State has no money of its own, so anything it spends money on is done with seized wealth.
No one is arguing to abolish the State. Just to shrink it and scale back its power. A lot of the decisions belong to state and local governments.
You can vote a CEO out of office as a shareholder.
Fleagus Gustafario says
Yeah but if you don’t have any money to buy shares than it is a dictatorship. The ultimate result would be an elite class of shareholders, while everybody else gets no rights.
I agree some regulations are not very good and need to be scaled back, but I also think in other areas there hasn’t been enough action and resources need to be increased, like education, medical care, and so on.
With no state to equalize the distribution of income, you’ll have a few very wealthy and powerful warlords, and we’d be at their mercy pretty much. Our government sort of resembles the Mafia but if it were to be a democracy of the people more so, then the rules of the market and governmental policies would be more fair and reasonable.
cheeflo says
It’s a metaphor for government coercion. In a very real sense, it is a gun to your head.
Southernationalist says
My God, what a moron. Go back to the first grade and learn some basic economic facts of life.
Manny Stockton says
HMMM I happen to make a great wage of $75 an hour, IN CASH. I have 32 years of Tattooing under my belt and 2, counted two, very successful businesses. I have 0 debt, and own my home and vehicles. So in summation, take your inbred southern as back to the south necropedifelcher.
Scotty Gunn says
Then kiss the dollar menu goodbye
lordoffantasy says
what i am confused about is why are these restaurants closing? if i remember right, those affected by the wage icnrease are the ones with more than five hundred employees, thus designed to affect those able to pay it. those with less are giving more time to adapt to it in the future.
cheeflo says
Read a little something about franchises. You might learn something that you clearly do not know now.
Fleagus Gustafario says
For me it’s Information Technology and Software development, so effectively I pay my people anywhere from $40-65/hr…there’s a lot more leeway in that field. I’m not even wealthy or anything, I make about 90k a year…but my logic is that if I can provide good part time work for 3 people, making that much, then Wal-Mart and McDonalds with their billions of dollars can sure as hell pay their workers a decent wage.
Business owners that are millionaires can certainly afford it too…if I can. Every year I make more, everybody I interact with customers and workers included, really likes my model, so I’m going to keep using it…I know the negative opinions of me here are only because of how contract labor is seen in most industries, and yeah it’s really shitty to hire temp labor for pennies on the dollar and work them to the bone…that’s not me. Here’s my site:
http://s31tech.org
linda says
LIER IF YOU PAYED 50 HR 2 DAYS WEEK THATS $1,600 MOTH $65 HOUR IS $2,O80 MONTH BEFORE YOU SAID $1500 WHAT IS IT REALLY 40 dAY
Fleagus Gustafario says
It depends on how valuable they are and how much business they bring in, I work with 3 people, at different levels of development and skills, so pay them different. What is this Communist Russia?
Fleagus Gustafario says
Also business comes in bursts, haven’t you ever run a business? It has up and down cycles. It’s not a steady flow of money coming in. I don’t have any complaints and everybody seems to be doing well that I interact with. Not sure where all the hate comes from. I’m doing something whereas most people like you are doing absolutely nothing to improve the situation.
I want to do more, but I’m doing more than most.
cheeflo says
$90K is a damn good income for someone still in his twenties.
Lori Martin says
You pay above minimum because you aren’t paying the taxes, buying health insurance, or covering any other benefits for your contract employees. Do you pay overtime? I bet you feel stupid now for posting. You shouldn’t talk about things you really have no idea about. Maybe all businesses should only hire contract labor. Is that what you are suggesting? Is that how it will be totally possible?
Fleagus Gustafario says
It’s called self-employment tax. I actually end up paying double taxes because my employer (nobody) isn’t picking up half the tab like at a normal Job.
Look it up:
http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Self-Employment-Tax-Social-Security-and-Medicare-Taxes
It’s the same amount of taxes either way, except with self-employment tax the burden is squarely on my shoulders, but if you are a W2 employee then you only pay half of those taxes and your employer picks up the other half.
cheeflo says
Right. And your part-time contractors are on the hook for their full tax burdens, too. But they’re not making $90K a year with write-offs. They’re working 2 days a week for $1,500/month. That’s $18,000/year. The self-employment bite on that is 15.3% for Social Security and Medicare. That’s about $2,754 off the top, plus any income or other taxes owed.
So they’re netting less than $16,000/year with no benefits. A $9/hour full-time job might yield a better deal for them.
Don’t kid yourself that you’re paying double taxes. You’re just paying the full tax liability as are all employers. The burden isn’t only the money. Businesses are impressed into service as tax collectors, are required to file reams of paperwork, and in turn, they must pay those monies to the government. All the money comes from the employer.
Katsstud says
Your personal example is quite humorous and not applicable to the issue.
VikingAesir says
And I’d bet your employees aren’t doing minimum wage jobs either. Why do you suppose Microsoft doesn’t pay minimum wage?
Fleagus Gustafario says
They would be doing minimum wage jobs otherwise because they are unskilled labor and they want to learn a skill. I bet I’d be respected by you guys if I charged them for me to teach them, instead of paying them more than fair for the work, to have on the job training. I am teaching them to be self-sufficient and independent so that they don’t need to rely on an employer…No employer I’ve ever worked for gave a damn…It really turned me in the opposite direction. My efforts are modest but I already have 8 unskilled people out there in the world with relevant tech skills, so they were able to get better paying jobs in the industry I taught them in. Pay it forward.
Galaxy Girl says
Fleagus, that just shows you own a SUCCESSFUL business. To anyone who can’t pay their employees a minimum wage after being in business for a while, you aren’t succeeding, so you should just close your doors.
greetingsfromyonkers says
And people who can’t afford things that now cost more because the husiness owner had to raise prices to meet increased labor costs won’t be buying either Goodbye, neighborhood diner!
Southernationalist says
Especially when your former customers are eating in a nearby suburb for 20-25% less. Competition don’t ya know? Although I realize competition is something these mush heads cannot understand.
Katsstud says
Perhaps price controls are next?
lairdp says
In reality is hadn’t worked out by your r gloomy theories. Labor is only one part of the cost of business, and the others don’t go up, so the price increase to cover a wage increase is a small percentage. For Wal-Mart for example 1% higher prices pays for $15 minimum wages. Would you drive to the next state to save 1%, or just to make sure you supported a business that tastes Employees badly?
Historically what actually happens when the minimum wage has gone up is that prices go up slightly but demand goes up more, and the economy improves. Look at SeaTac for a recent example. The businesses that claimed they would fire people are instead hiring, and hotels are adding capacity instead. Your theory doesn’t work in practice!
Andy Anderson says
” Labor is only one part of the cost of business, and the others don’t go up”
Within two sentences of your comment you have demonstrated two things: you don’t run a restaurant, and you don’t know what you’re talking about.
cheeflo says
If payrolls go up, so do payroll taxes. Employers match the FICA withheld from employees’ paychecks. Restaurants are not the only businesses subject to the $15 minimum wage, they’re just very vulnerable because their margins are so narrow. Many of their vendors may have to increase their prices, too, and they will pass that increase along to their customers.
If Wal-Mart treats its employees so badly, then why do people clamor for those jobs every time a new Wal-Mart opens?
Can you give me an example of how minimum wage increases drive up demand? Your SeaTac example is misleading — isn’t that an airport? It remains to be seen how the increase will affect that. The minimum wage increase does not drive demand. Other factors do.
greetingsfromyonkers says
WTF are you talking about? In Seattle, restaurants are announcing they are closing BEFORE the minimum wage increase takes effect. And I’ll be damned if I have to pay more for a business to pay some surly, illiterate high school dropout $15.00 an hour to perform an entry-level job.
Hellebore says
Yet another example of a class of people who can’t think their way to the logical conclusion of this issue. They simply lack the capacity to see reality: socialism has never succeeded and instead, brings entire countries to ruin.
Miranda says
Really. Then Denmark, Sweden, and
a host of other European countries who have made socialism work must’ve not gotten the memo. Note we are talking about socialism and NOT communism.
Edward Bustamante says
Bad example..Denmark and Sweden are very insular, with tightly controlled immigration to balance their ledgers. Most all other European socialist countries are near or in bankruptcy. West Germany spent 10 years digging out of the whole they fell in after shouldering the immense debt of their socialist brethren in East Germany after unification.
soladu says
Sweden is ruined and the second high country with rapes per captiva in the whole world – after south Africa. They are destroying themself.. and every body who is criticism this is racist
Katsstud says
The great liberal myth. Compare small socially homogeneous countries to ours…logical fallacy. The melting pot European countries are functionally bankrupt through social and pension spending and are certainly failing by any standard.
Andy says
Have you ever been to Denmark or Sweden? It’s not working.
lairdp says
That would come as a surprise to the people who live in Denmark and Sweden. Happy people, economies doing well. What part isn’t working?
Andy says
Well, for one thing, they are not true socialists. Only about a quarter of their production is government owned. And another thing is they have no national minimum wage.
Mister Mister says
Denmark isn’t doing too bad. They’ve gone to a NIRP because their currency is tightly tied to the Euro. Sweden’s open immigration policy has lead to a terrible increase in crime. I lived in Copenhagen for a while. The country has it’s good and bad points. Each of the “Socialist Paradise” positives comes with a drawback. Like, “Everyone Rides Bikes or Takes Public Transportation!”. Well, that’s because Denmark taxes cars at 180% (Yes, 180%) and gas costs are about $8/gallon. “The government pays for Health Care and College!”. Well, that’s paid for by a 30% VAT (MOMs) on everything. etc. etc.
Some unexpected things are just better in the US. Like building codes. Nothing over there is what you’d call ADA compliant. The concept of “fire hazard” and “Emergency Exit” isn’t really the same. There isn’t the social/criminal stigma of being fall-down drunk, or shooting up drugs, or picking up a streetwalker.
billjcanada says
Now that is funny as most European countries are moving away from socialism as it is not working and they are going bankrupt much like Seattle eventually will. Do a little reading and studying Miranda you might actually learn something.
Thaddeus says
We are not socialist… and we will never be socialist. get it thru your head.
VikingAesir says
Right, Greece and Spain are doing just fabulously under socialism aren’t they. http://www.aei.org/publication/the-american-lefts-two-europes-problem/
bam says
Oh shit, you DON’T know how the Situation in Denmark and Sweden is??
Devin W Congema says
Exactly only people who have no clue about economics and have never operated a business advocate this type of economic fascism on businesses. They use these empty words like “fair wage”, “living wage”….. I have this to say to them excuse me but…. when 2 people VOLUNTARILY negotiate a wage…… who is getting hurt since it’s voluntary? For those who advocate minimum wage to aim the guns of government at peaceful people is immoral and irresponsible and it shows how clueless they are with operating a business and basic economics.
Glen Padgett says
And what are your qualifications Devin. I been doing it for over twenty years and pay everyone enough to live and they give good return. Very few people are able to negotiate their starting salary. More take it or leave it. Only idiots or greedy assholes think like you.
Southernationalist says
If they do not like the salary then they should leave it, not demand that a bunch of counter culture hipsters extort money out of uncool business owners on their behalf.
Jack Buckmeir says
“WILL THE LAST PERSON LEAVING SEATTLE PLEASE TURN OUT THE LIGHTS?”
TestSalad says
http://blogs.seattletimes.com/fyi-guy/2014/05/22/census-seattle-is-the-fastest-growing-big-city-in-the-u-s/
Fastest growing big city in America. I don’t expect you to admit you’re wrong, because, of course, you’re a republican.
VikingAesir says
Of course since you’re a liberal it’s no wonder you’re completely wrong. Seattle isn’t growing because of the minimum wage increase or minimum wage jobs dumbass. Amazon is a prime driver, how many minimum wage employees do you think they’re employing? Of course as a liberal you won’t admit that.
TestSalad says
A rising sea lifts all ships.
whamprod says
You have the intent of that expression exactly backwards. That statement – “A rising tide lifts all ships” actually means that an improving economy helps everybody……… the poor, AND the rich. But your version goes more like “strangle the rich, to feed the poor”. All that does is to kill the goose that laid the golden egg.
juliabliss says
Actually no, TestSalad is correct. The employees get more income, which will get spent. Where does it get spent? In businesses owned by … who? oh yeah, the wealthy, the “job creators”.
Giving low income folks a raise does far more to stimulate the economy because they have current expense needs that aren’t being met. The wealthy can just stick any additional income in the bank where it sits, not creating jobs, not increasing demand. Just earning cash for the wealthy that doesn’t even get taxed at the same level as labor income.
Love how the poor are supposed to believe the rising tide slogan but the rich don’t have to.
TestSalad says
The rich can afford it, the poor can’t afford it.
Small and dying business owner says
Also sinks them deeper when they hit a GUBERMINT BUSINESS KILLER BERG.
Justin923 says
Begging your pardon but Houston is the fastest growing city– read here: http://www.forbes.com/sites/erincarlyle/2015/01/27/americas-fastest-growing-cities-2015/
Joe says
Where do you get your info? Seattle is not the fastest growing big city in America. Fort Worth, Texas is #1. Many of the top 10 are in Texas.
TestSalad says
I actually provided the link that backs up my statement. It was pretty clear.
glad I'm not in Seattle says
Hey idiot, you posted a story from before the minimum wage increase was passed. Brilliant piece of work.
cheeflo says
A link from almost a year ago. Times change, sometime really fast.
Jim Trent says
You gave a link to a blog. Wow, that has to be accurate right? Here is a link from somewhere I trust a little more then a blog. Especially a blog from the city it is trying to spin up.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erincarlyle/2015/01/27/americas-fastest-growing-cities-2015/
Jim Trent says
I notice you don’t say anything at all about the link to Forbes that says the “blog” is wrong. That’s right, liberals ignore facts when it doesn’t suit their needs. Poor Poor TossedSalad. You are so clueless I won’t even bother replying. Obviously you have been brainwashed and just choose to ignore facts. Oh well. You keep on reading blogs. I hear they have all the cutting edge news and the only place that is fact checked 🙂 (sarcasm in case you are too dense to know it)
Greg Stewart says
Wah…Wahh. Wait! You mean a city in a Republican state is the fastest growing? Crap! Based upon what I am reading here, I was sure that Detroit headed that list. The next thing you will tell me is that Texas gained four congressional seats in the last census.
Solipsis says
Hey, it’s Mister ASSumption! People who disagree with you are wrong, and they are also Republicans? Automatically!? Wow, so you’re a Democrat who is always right? What a narcissist! Man, you need to stop being so full of yourself, asshole.
TestSalad says
Yep, just as I said.
DJDave says
Since when is a Seattle blog a “news source”… $15 hr to flip a burger… Ridiculous…
Fish says
I’m surpised they didn’t use red ink!
Chris Don Tremaine says
Was the fastest. Not for long. Don.
mustbejoking says
2014
Cecil says
And you believe a blog from the Seattle TImes??
Jim Trent says
Did you just use a blog as a justification that you are right? That’s even worse then quoting wiki as your facts. What’s next? You see it on a matchbook and that will be your evidence?
TestSalad says
Last time I checked, The Seattle Times is a newspaper.
Jim Trent says
Yes it is a news paper. Left leaning but a news paper. Did you not even look at the link you gave? It was a blog. You know blogs are not really regulated. They aren’t accurate most times. But you keep thinking a blog which isn’t the same as an actual article in the newspaper is the final word. Plus if you notice there are many other places that are not blogs such as the link I gave you from Forbes. You know Forbes right? Just about everyone has heard of them while only the people in Washington has heard of the Seattle Times. The link from them doesn’t even mention Seattle when it talks about the fastest growing city. But you don’t want to hear that do you? Actual facts from multiple places which show you as wrong you will dismiss.
Jim Trent says
Oh look what I found
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erincarlyle/2015/01/27/americas-fastest-growing-cities-2015/
Moron.
Jim Trent says
I don’t expect you to admit you use “facts” that are about as durable as 1 ply toilet paper because, of course, you are a liberal moron.
J Dub says
Liberal Moron=Libtard
TestSalad says
Oh, insults. Why did you even bother? Why would you waste your time?
Jim Trent says
Really? You start the insults and then whine when they are thrown back at you? My God, how much of a whiny double standard libtard are you? Scroll through your posts before you run your mouth and say you didn’t say anything.
Terry Rosa says
Was
TestSalad says
Oh, did the liberal oasis of Austin, TX replace it in the top spot?
vegas1970 says
Shouldn’t we wait to see the implementation of the new wage before we measure the results.. Why would it matter if Seattle was the fastest growing a couple of years before the wage was increased?
TestSalad says
Because they can afford it now.
vegas1970 says
How do you figure that?
Greg Stewart says
Click!
Robert Mandresh says
what kind of restaurant do you have? if you run a business that is different, the minimal wage probably does not really relate to your business. personally , I would not mind paying higher prices at restaurants and therefore not going thru the tipping ritual.
cheeflo says
The tips will be missed by the wait staff.
Gooseontheloose says
The choice to be a minimum wage worker was made when these folks decided that acquiring an education and/or skills which would have some value in the world of commerce was not worth the effort. Ignorance can be cured, stupidity cannot. Minimum wage keeps the cycle turning out more and more dependency on those who were able to understand a free market system at the most elementary level.
Benjamin Kerensa says
Except that we have hundreds of thousands of people with degrees working minimum wage jobs because there are not enough skilled job open.
Gooseontheloose says
I’ll suggest that those degrees were in worthless areas of concentration such as Womyns’ Studies, Religion in the 21st Century and the History of Pornography.
Katsstud says
Liberal Arts degrees financed by student loans never to be repaid. The American Dream I suppose.
Daniel says
Business degrees too.
flystraight says
Thank the democrat party for that. Democrats idea of job creation is expand government.
Anon. says
Government Creates Poverty.
cheeflo says
The only thing it does really well.
D Olson says
Yea genius that is their platform but of course like everything else republicans spout it’s a lie. For the last 40 years the size of government has risen far more under republicans than under democrats. Grow a brain and actually do some research.
the Boodge says
Lol I think you need to read some more history books to get your facts straight! Funny how the left thinks their political leaders are saints & never lie! You’ve got to be one of the most ignorant posters on here…
flystraight says
I’ve done my research douch bag. Luckily most of the country did last Nov 4 also.
Go back in your cave and wait for your government dole to show up in the mail box.
D Olson says
You may fly straight but your brain needs work. I can almost guarantee I pay at least double what you do in taxes and other than my military pay from back in the day I have never received a government check. But keep believing that right wing talking point nonsense and see where it gets you. And next time one of your gods like walker talks actually pay attention to what they are proposing to SOLVE a problem….hint…nothing. They simply complain about everything obama does but they don’t actually propose a solution.
flystraight says
Like I said. Keep signing the back of the checks while people like me keep signing the front of them in order to pay for your parties promises.
Sooner or later you’ll run out of other peoples money.
Can anyone believe this traitor bragged about what he pays in taxes? If you think that’s honor, your the problem.
MrLightRail says
Hey, that military pay was a government check, idiot. So, you were sucking on the taxpayers teat for a while. Hurts, don’t it. 🙂
Bob says
Obama certainly give a person enough to complain about! I thought he taught about the constitution. He doesn’t seem to remember how things are supposed to be done. It is too bad we have a DICTATOR instead of a president.
mike says
That’s just not true. Beginning with Reagan the gop has downsized government. It has doubled under our current tyrant, err president.
lairdp says
In reality Reagan grew the government rapidity, Clinton slowly, Bush grew government explosively, and Obama is the only president in our lifetime to actually shrink the government.
Finrod Felagund says
Lie. The 2009 budget was the largest budget deficit in US history, and it was signed 5 months late by Obama because the Democratic Congress refused to pass the budget until Bush had left office.
The amount of debt the Obama Administration has run up is rapidly approaching the amount of debt all the other Presidents combined ran up.
D Olson says
Lol “doubled in size”, obama is literally the first president in decades in which the size of government employment has shrunk. But what would one expect from low information right wing sheep. Unless you morons actually start researching issues this country is going to be in 3rd world status if you continue voting republican.
Finrod Felagund says
Lie. Obama signed the 2009 budget that exploded the deficit.
Cold_Hard_Facts says
Oh child, you’re so adorable when you openly demonstrate your ignorance. 😉
The 2009 fiscal year (emphasis added for LIVs) U.S. Federal budget was submitted to Congress by President Bush; and that Congress approved the budget on …
June 5, 2008.
You did know that Congress controls the budget, right?
…
[crickets]
Oh dear. That is tremendously embarrassing for you. No one will blame you for changing your screen name.
It is true that final spending bills of that approved budget were not signed until 2009, but your confusion on the issue is legion. The CBO estimated that fully one-half of the deficit was the result of the 2008 TARP bailouts which, as the name indicates, were also enacted in 2008 (October 3, 2008, to be specific, LIV).
So dates, recent American History and economics are also not among your strengths. Don’t fret. Surely something is. 🙂
Kurt Schuster says
http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikepatton/2013/01/24/the-growth-of-the-federal-government-1980-to-2012/
Read this. I don’t know if Forbes is a liberal rag or not but I was surprised to see the data. (R) Now government spending has nearly doubled; yes.
juliabliss says
And what do Republicans do to grow the economy? Has it ever worked?
Solipsis says
Idiot. Do some research and answer your own questions. Stop relying on acquaintances and Rachel Maddow to tell you how the world works.
cheeflo says
That is the fastest-growing employment sector.
David says
and the republican idea of job creation is making the rich richer
flystraight says
Really moron? Did you just say that? The gap has never been wider nor grown at such a clip as under Obama’s reign.
Roy Hayward says
Philosophy and art history degrees are not the types of degrees/skills/education we are talking about. In the tech industry we are desperate for people with skills. (Skills, not degrees)
cheeflo says
Yeah, what can you do with a degree in gender studies?
The emphasis is on credentials more than actual knowledge and skills.
Kurt Schuster says
Roy, I need a JOB! My resume is poorly written but I have skills in avionics and computer systems, to include: optics, RADAR, LASERS, and acoustic processing systems. $15 an hour won’t cut it though. LOL
calypso says
I’m a technical recruiter and I disagree with this statement. Every single one of my hiring managers insist that the individual must have both a degree in CS or a related field and industry experience.
Brawndo says
Apparently, you got this far in life without taking a course in reading comprehension.
Roy Hayward says
Disagree all you like. My degree is in poly sci. No one cares. I get contacts from recruiters all the time and no one has blinked at my degree except one government job.
People with php skills and some experience are making 75k and up. Some times much more if they are good.
Blaze says
Because dumbass kids are getting degrees that go no where. Get a trade or skill that’s highly wanted, not a bachelors in psychology. Just because you have a degree doesn’t mean your entitled to anything, it just portrays what you’ve accomplished and what your skill set is.
Brady2600 says
Some basic welding vocational school is looking a heck of a lot better than a philosophy degree and working as a bar tender these days.
Nicolas Nelson says
Exactly. I have an advanced liberal-arts degree and can’t get a job in my chosen field (academia). So I started my own business. Two of them, in fact. My “entry level” employee gets $15/hour (which is really about $24/hour, including taxes & payroll costs) not because the government mandates it, but because I am competing for the best-skilled administrative assistant I can afford. My other employee’s base salary is even lower than that, but his earned quarterly bonuses mean he gets even more take-home pay than I do— and he’s worth every penny! As for me, if I divide my monthly income by how much time I spent working to earn it, it’s depressing: between $4 and $8 per hour depending on the month. But I’m doing something I love, and I set my own hours & calendar, and my employees and associates (who get 1099s) keep things running when I’m gone.
Still, in comparison, my son is working toward a welding certification that will earn him $80/hour starting salary, $150/hour average in the first 2 years, and as much as $250/hour if he advances in his skills. As a welder. He’ll out-earn his old man in his first year of full-time work!
Kayla Lynne Kroon says
Nicolas, Administrative Assistants (while definitely entry-level) are NOT considered “unskilled labor.” Restaurant servers (not chefs) are considered “unskilled labor.”
And kudos to your son! My husband has his welding certifications, but is running a trucking company at the moment.
shd1963 says
But what kind of degrees? Womyn’s Studies? African American History? Basketweaving? Or maybe some other useless Libturd Philosophy?
Katsstud says
Which doesn’t change the math. Overqualified by spending tens of thousands on valueless degrees still makes you as valuable waiting tables as a high school dropout.
VikingAesir says
A valueless degree doesn’t make someone overqualified to do anything, at best it makes them over educated – but still not qualified or valuable.
Tony Viscardi says
Then why can’t I find help?
bill says
Ben, a degree does not mean you are a skilled person. It means you paid enough money for the paper that without experience will get you a low wage job to start. Now a tech school graduate is a skilled person that depending on the skill can start out with a decent wage. This entitlement society we have created has everyone believing any degree from anywhere means you should get paid.
Fair Dinkum says
Having a degree is not the same thing as having marketable skills.
cheeflo says
It’s not the same thing as having an education, either.
Dan says
A degree does not mean you have a marketable skill. I don’t know any electricians out of work but I know plenty of people with history and other non skilled degrees out of work.
Beyond Anon says
What sort of degrees? International Relations?
Scott Zweifel says
Look at what their degrees are in…. art. Dancing. No real value on most of the degrees people get
Harry Sach says
This from someone who has no degree.
b fox says
No Benjamin, the paying jobs are there in the trades businesses. Unfortunately todays young people are too busy earning Lib Arts degrees and training to work in air conditioned cubicles. Have fun making a living with that English Lit degree. We no longer have people willing to get their hands dirty.
Bastiat_Fan says
Thank the Democrat party and the “open borders” crowd for that.
whamprod says
Chicken/Egg, utterly avoidable by making good choices. There are not enough skilled jobs open for them because a LOT of those people chose to get a degree in a field for which there is no demand. How is that anybody’s fault besides that of the person who made poor decisions with their educational choices? The rest of us have to pay more for our burgers, so that someone who chose to major in feminist studies with a minor in underwater basket-weaving instead of majoring in petroleum engineering shouldn’t have to accept the consequences of his/her choices? Please. Choices have consequences. It’s a fact of life. To try and evade reality by removing consequence from decision making process is a recipe for social, political, and cultural disaster. As we are witnessing.
Tony Viscardi says
EXACTLY!!
Dominic Fruges says
Not really. Many of the people working restaurant jobs are unable to get real jobs, attending college, or cobbling together two PT jobs in today’s economy. You’re being simplistic.
cheeflo says
Restaurants jobs are real jobs. There is potential to make a living waiting tables or bartending.
This is going to severely affect tipping, too.
calypso says
Education and skill set don’t go hand in hand. There are plenty of college grads (even with PhDs) who fund themselves under employed especially in regards to their degree. Likewise there are just as many folks who lack a college education who hold skilled professional roles. The free market system works exactly as it’s meant to work, ask the 1% and the disappearing middle class. That’s the problem. Too many look out only for their own short sighted interests and seem unwilling to consider that as a community issues impact all of us. We need a service industry and affordable housing options. I’m sad to see places such as Grub close its door and I’m also concerned about folks who make $30k annually yet can barely afford a roof over their head, food in their belly and access to doctors. We can sustain a minimum wage of $15 p/h especially with monsters such as Amazon, Microsoft, Google and Facebook in our market.
Gooseontheloose says
Foresight, the ability to look into the future, is a prerequisite for any decision and the desire to obtain a university degree should be accompanied by the understanding of this valuable asset. Areas of concentration such as esoteric Womyn’s Studies programs have absolutely no value in the world of commerce so obtaining a degree with a major or even a minor in these subjects is a very silly and probably emotional, choice. Reality dictates harsh consequences for poor choices but educating people to look beyond tomorrow is exceedingly difficult thus Seattle’s citizenry will soon understand the perils of tampering with basic economic tenets.
Shocked_and_Amazed8591 says
Bet you aren’t running a restaurant are you
R_of_the_H says
So what would you pay a design engineer?
Glen Padgett says
Do my own but my employees make close to what I make and we all live quite well thank you.
R_of_the_H says
To answer the question, do you have a dollar figure, that you can offer, that you would pay, if needed, an electrical design engineer?
Glen Padgett says
Have indeed needed the service and last time I paid $300.00 an hour. That was to sign off on my work in another state. Why do you seem to think you are dealing with an idiot. I assure you my education and training in multiple fields and license and certification serve me quite well in a field where idiots are short lived. You have yourself a nice little life.
R_of_the_H says
You got took to the cleaners. By an electrician.
Devin W Congema says
Your response is not a rebuttal to anything I typed merely ad hominem attacks. You must prove to me how using violence in a peaceful situation will bring about a better outcome than voluntarily and peacefully negotiating wages. I advocate for peaceful voluntary interactions between people are you saying using the government as a 3rd party violent thug is a more preferable way than voluntarily interacting?
Brady2600 says
That might be the case for the margins of whatever business you are conducting, but that is simply not true for many situations. The fact that you stated that you are an exception to this demonstrates that negotations are not a take it or leave it prospect. They are simply take it or leave it for this particular opportunity, in this particular place, with these particular people. No planner or bleeding heart can make paying for a task at a loss worth it, regardless if this task is done by a person or not. If robots were incredibly slow and expensive at welding auto bodies, we simply wouldn’t use them for those tasks. Economic feasibility isn’t about greed or how anyone feels about it, if the economic results of someone’s skills is below the market worth of the tasks completed no businessman in their right mind is going to push the LOSE button until they go under.
Steve Gregg says
Starting salaries, along with all other salaries, are dictated by the labor market, not the employer. When you artificially inflate the min wage, then you destroy unskilled jobs. The formula is that you lose 1% of min wage jobs for every 10% you raise the min wage. If you double the min wage from $7.50 to $15, that 100% increase will cost 10% of the min wage jobs. More will be lost later as employers reconfigure their shops to use less min wage labor.
Greg Stewart says
But Steve… The market is so scarrrrry! It is too cruel! That would be like facing reality. Can’t we give the government magical powers to defy the laws of nature?
Steve Gregg says
You’re right. The job market is no place for fantasy.
cheeflo says
The Feds already believe they have that.
MrLightRail says
Historically, that is not the case. When the national minimum wage has been increased previously, there was a negligible change in hiring habits by employers. Employers need a base level of employees to run the business. That’s a given. In fact, since the Great Recession, employers have done away with more full time jobs, creating more part-time work, with no benefits, and with no way to take a second job due to the way they schedule work times. Open availability and part-time work should flat out be illegal.
Steve Gregg says
The reason why there was little job destruction in some cases when the min wage was increased was that it was below the market wage. In the boom of the 1990s, there was a hiring boom that lifted the market wage for unskilled labor above the min wage. Congress increased the min wage, but it was still below the market wage. When the boom busted in the 2000s, the min wage was above the market wage, but it was hidden by the general fall in employment. Making illegal part-time work and work that pays below an arbitrary minimum is a good way to destroy the edges of the economy, particularly the job market for unskilled labor. The main reason that employers are going to part time labor is ObamaCare, which makes full time labor in small businesses unprofitable.
Gary says
By your analysis, the only way a business owner can now recoup the higher wages is through increased pricing on what they sell. True? This increase in wages doesn’t come out of thin air…and the business owners aren’t going to take a lower wage on their end, especially if they are just squeezing out a living. So the only people affected are the minimum wage worker (more in their pocket) and those of us that frequent that business (less in our pocket due to price increases)…not to mention the lose of jobs at this new minimum wage because now the workers that remain will have to pick up the slack of the hours lost by the fired employees while still working their same hours. I don’t know what historical data you are referring to, but when I ran my businesses and business was slow…I took the hit in salary so I could pay my employees and my accountant & wife used to scream at me for doing so. That only goes so far in this new economy. Time will tell.
Kayla Lynne Kroon says
You are absolutely right. The owners have no where else to take a hit. A full-time employee at $15 an hour makes $30k a year. My husband is a small business owner. He doesn’t make $30k a year.
vegas1970 says
But the hiring patterns change as the cost of labor gets closer to the cost of technology to replace those jobs.
Brian Mertel says
This was over time due to inflation, and costs rose along with it. Compare what $20 could buy you in the ’60s compared to now. On the other side of that coin, if minimum wage rised at the same pace as inflation it would be right around $15/hour. This was plain greed. Corporations slashed costs to get a head with huge profit margins. Now that they are massive they only need a really small margin to survive, so now it is the small businesses that would suffer due to an income hike. Notice how all the businesses that are closing are small time? This is just a way for the larger corporations to get ahead by pushing out small time competition.
Ambersol09 . says
I started work in 1966 at the minimum wage rate of $1.25/hr. Today that would be $9.02 according to an inflation calculator site. SS and Medicare went from 4.2% combined to 7.65% combined. Thus employers are paying an extra $.32 per hour in addition to inflation vs. 1966 (their half of SS and Medicare). So to compare apples to apples, you subtract the $.34 from the employee side since the employer is paying that extra part. Result:
Minimum Wage
1966 – $1.25
2015 – $8.70
Actual in WA is $9.25. Workers get paid more now.
Katsstud says
Your ideology is showing Glen…thanks for playing.
Glen Padgett says
Good to know I work at being fair to all that pull a check here every week.
Katsstud says
Whatever that means Glen and obviously little application to the discussion, but glad you feel good about it.
Tony Viscardi says
I call BS. You haven’t run shit. Profit margins can be so low the owner makes less than their employees. What buisness do you run, what are your margians?
Glen Padgett says
Call what you want I have been a contractor for twenty two years. And it is true that some years I made close to what my employees made but that was OK because they made a good living. Other years I made many times what they made and they where OK with that because they made a good living. So Tony you know what you can do with your call. I may not be a greedy ass bastard but myself and those who have and still work for me will tell you where you can get off.
Ralph McConahy says
I appreciate what you are doing Glen, but that is your choice. What’s at issue here is the government forcing their bias down the throats of businesses. No one is faulting you for running your business the way you want to, but keep government out of free enterprise business decisions (free enterprise which this country was built upon, and needs to continue if this country is going to survive).
Tom Staskiewicz says
The choice to take it or leave it is a NEGOTIATION! No one is forced to accept the offer. If a business is not paying what the workers feel is a fair wage then the workers have the freedom to find a different employer.
Jimmy says
Good point my dad had a boss who was in business for something like 40 or 50 years before selling his company for I’m sure a nice retirement
. By giving his workers a fair wage and awesome benefits (fill all your personal vehicles with gas for free is one example) his business thrived. The greedy assholes who bought the business from him are about to go under. They tried to get my dad back to work for them for a slightly higher hourly wage but no benefits, but he refused. Remember you get what you pay for. If you cant pay your employees what they deserve, they probably aren’t going to do the quality of work you deserve.
Bruce Pontner says
So, Glen what type of business do you run that you can afford to pay $15.00/ hour for unskilled labor? You must be ripping off you customer to have such a large margin. So you are the greedy one ripping off your customers or you are full of shit. I have been in business 34 years, when the government tells me how much to pay without knowing my margin I will close the doors and retire.
Bastiat_Fan says
Ever notice that so-called “progressives” (who love to be generous with OTHER PEOPLE’S MONEY) are never “greedy?”
dmg14 says
So what is “enough” to live? Isn’t that different for everyone? Some are single, married, divorced, ill, …how do you get to decide what is enough? We live in a free country, and I can say yes or no to the wage offered. If I don’t know the difference in my skills, motivation and needs…shame on me. Get thee to a library and study economics. The only people that receive equal treatment live in prisons where food, shelter, clothing, education, recreation, medical, etc is provided to all…big problem though…no freedom! And even in prison, some people are housed and treated according to their behavior. Who wants to live like that????? we should want to decide for ourselves how we want to live without government intervention. No communism/socialism here please!
Ambersol09 . says
You employ people who earn tips and pay them above minimum wage?
MaryT says
its socialism. that is what Obama and democrats want.
MrLightRail says
There is NO negotiation. It’s take it or leave it from the employer. No negotiation on the hours you work, or availability. Oh, no! That’s an imposition on the employer. Sometimes you have to take what you can get so you can just muddle through. The prospective employee has NO leverage to negotiate. Not one whit. So don’t try to make it sound like it’s a negotiated proposal. It’s not.
hoya says
YOU DONT HAVE TO TAKE THAT JOB!!!!
M.-J. Taylor says
If you can’t pay your employees enough to support them. the business model is flawed. Otherwise, they are no better than exploited slave labor. But hey, if you want to subsidize their food, housing and health care instead of demanding that employers do it, I guess you don’t mind paying more taxes.
CountNeko says
So is it okay if an employer convinces a desperate applicant to accept $2/hr? Is it always fair if it’s a voluntary agreement? Would you say the same about predatory payday loans?
Greg Carlson says
Unfortunately it is socialist thinking. Some people confuse charity, which is a good thing, with creating a law that forces others to give, as being good. These people actually sleep better at night thinking THEY are the moral ones.
Vinnie Garbone says
But but…I thought businesses were in the business of giving jobs? You’re beginning to make it sound like some kind of capitalistic evil…
Mary Robinson says
I think you need to educate yourself better! The Employer does not pay an extra $7.00 on the paycheck. It is taken out mostly of the employees paycheck… so they can hope to take about 11.50 of that $15.00 paycheck home. People need to face the truth. The way it is right now is calling for more and more people living below the poverty line…… So much for being a 1st. class country….. I should have stayed in Germany!
cas47 says
What are you talking about? The extra money is taken from the paychecks of employees who NO LONGER HAVE JOBS!
catlady says
nothing is stopping you from going back to germany
Common sense says
Apparently you don’t own a business or do payroll. An employer plays an additional employment tax on each employee on top of the wage paid to the employee. What comes out of an employee’s paycheck goes straight to the government, not to the employer. On top of the employee tax, the employee also has to pay insurance just to cover the employee- not health but worker’s compensation. It’s very expensive to have an employee.
steve says
No Mary, The money that comes out of an employees paycheck for taxes is just the employees part. The employer also must pay payroll tax based on payroll. My workers comp and general liability insurance is also based on payroll. I just got hit with an insurance payment of about $6k for raising payroll last year. That was a pretty healthy hit on a credit card so I can stay in business. Unfortunately no one guarantees I make money and thee are times when those who owe me money wait to pay longer than expected equipment breaks down and needs to be fixed, and business is just slow. Other times it is a great experience. I encourage everyone that thinks it is easy money and the owner is greedy to jump in and get ya some.
Katsstud says
Mary…please educate yourself to avoid looking foolish. You have little knowledge of what the truth is regarding expenses. The poverty line is mostly a myth Mary, but keep on talking about it as if it is true.
sfryar says
Mr. foo, that just happened.
Employer says
The only thing I would add to this statement is that the wage is only about 1/3 of the actual expense an employer pays to employ someone. Now Obamacare had made that even worse. The actual employer cost is close to $40/hour for an employee making $15.
People think employers just have money to spare but at a %4 profit isn’t really worth keeping a resteraunt open. It’s just scraping by. Essentially the resteraunt is living paycheck to paycheck. Any more expense and it goes in the hole.
Entry level jobs were never meant to sustain people throughout their lives. They were only meant to help people enter the workforce.
Glen Padgett says
I been signing checks for over twenty years and paying living wage. You may know 101 but I know keeping good help requires good wages.
Country says
There are plenty of restaurants out there doing. And they aren’t high end restaurants with massive intake. They are regular restaurants. Stop making excuses. If as a business owner you are making less than $15 per hour (as this article claims is common), and your employees make even less, then your business is already a failure because everyone from lowest employee to owner is earning poverty wages. Clearly something has to change. No one who works should live in poverty.
Katsstud says
Unfortunately the word poverty has become grossly misused and mischaracterized. The government publishes artificial levels they label poverty, but most live under that line with little appearance of the visual represented. The census says that most of these people have food, clothing, shelter, and amenities, yet we continue to waive this as a banner for change as if these people are rooting through dumpsters and living in boxes.
Benjamin Kerensa says
You are some pro…. Employers do not pay Social Security or Medicaid taxes at all this is entirely paid by employees! Nice try though!
ecec55 says
You are wrong! They do pay Payroll taxes. You don’t know what you’re
talking about!!!!
Katsstud says
They pay half of the SS to start…
nsg hoya says
Obviously you haven’t signed a paycheck and failed business 101. The employer would really be paying around $17.50 (federal taxes 7.65%, federal unemployment .6%, state employment ~2%, L&I ~5%). Also it is being phased in. People start businesses for all sorts of reasons, but smart business owners know taking care of employees is smart business. That doesn’t make them asshats. I assure you these restaurants are not shutting down because they have to pay a little more for labor, it is a convenient excuse for something else wrong. Stop trying to scare people with lies when you obviously don’t know what you are talking about.
flystraight says
He’s never signed the front of the check. He’s a liberal bastion of hope and humanity digging in everyone elses pockets along the way in order to pay for his promises.
flystraight says
Hey Mr fool, why do rents average $1500 a month?
JacksonPearson says
Yeppers, Foo would bust in a week operating a lemonade stand.
Katsstud says
It’s simply ignorance ecec55. Feelings outweigh real knowledge and ideology trumps common sense.
Chuck Morningwood says
Workers work to make a living, just like the entrepreneurs. If the entrepreneurs can’t figure out how to make enough for them and their employees, then that’s on them.
Brian says
Amen sir! People that know nothing about business love to support this!
ecec55 says
. http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/26/smallbusiness/employee_costs/
I rest my case!
Katsstud says
Did you factor in the cost of ACA?
Tony Viscardi says
Now there you go stating facts and making sense. The left can’t handle the truth. I tell these people, next time your in a fast food restaurant, take a step back and OBSERVE the employees. Then, you can come tell me YOU would pay these people $15/hour. They come on late, call out regularly, put their entertainment ahead of their job and demand accommodation. I managed restaurants for over 25 years and left because of this new mentality. We’re pretty much screwed as a country with these kids as our future.
Sailsalot says
You are wasting your time responding to the socialist troll. He is incapable of dealing with the realities of running a business.
derpymc says
actually YOU sounds like a narcissistic asshat, put the blunt down and go back to class.
Mary T says
The people have it wrong nowadays. used to be – go to school, earn a degree/work, then get married, then have babies. now people have it in reverse. the teens have 4 babies and they complain I cannot feed a family of 4 on minimum wage. but this is the consequences of the people who value sex over waiting till you can handle a family. and have the means to do it.
Craig Reynolds says
Exactly right and well said. Self entitled socialist idiots like them mistakenly believe someone else owes them a job. As an entrepreneur myself I will only hire when I actually need to and at the minimum wage that makes sense for from an expense standpoint.
If hiring someone at the State required minimum is not going to increase my profits then I won’t do it. If the State required increase causes any existing employees to become an added expense versus what they contribute (I’m more profitable without them), then I will reduce/eliminate benefits, reduce hours or reduce employees. If that is not sufficient to maintain my profitability level and the public will not accept higher prices then I will fire everyone and relocate out of State or close permanently.
You are exactly correct that I went into business for myself to make a profit for myself, not to create jobs for others. That happens only if I need to and only if it adds to my profit. No one with a brain starts a business to employ others or to lose money. Those ungrateful entitlement minded fools have it easy. An 8 hour day and they are done.
They don’t even understand that a business owner in most cases actually earns less per hour than the employees. My day is a minimum of 12 hours long when you add in all the accounting, inventory and other misc paperwork I must do every day. If I were a restaurateur I would likely be open 7 days a week. That’s a minimum 84 hour work week for the owner and as stated earlier the average take home for the owner after all expenses and personal taxes is less than $30,000 a year. That works out to less than $7 per hour for the owner. Likely the restaurant is actually open for business for a full 12 hours a day. That means the owner is going to be there for a minimum of 14 hours a day. In that case the owner is actually earning less than $6 per hour.
Taking all that into consideration why would any owner take a further cut in profits? At a certain point it is just not worth it to keep the business open. At that point everyone loses. Heck there shouldn’t even be a minimum wage law at all especially when you don’t have a maximum wage cap on CEO’s and other executives. Mom and Pop businesses do not become wealthy. They create the most jobs, but can least afford to do so under current minimum wage requirements. On the other hand no one and I mean no one NEEDS to be paid multimillion dollar compensation packages and that is where large corporations skew it for everyone.
juliabliss says
Yes I have, both as an accountant and a business owner, in Seattle. This increase is completely doable. That restaurant in Queen Anne? One of the most expensive neighborhoods in the city. Add a dime to each menu item, no one would notice and the employees won’t show up exhausted from their second job.
Katsstud says
A dime? Doubtful that your bonafides have any connection with reality.
juliabliss says
Really. Have you ever run a restaurant? The sheer quantity of transactions means you don’t need to double prices or anything drastic to bring in more revenue. Even mr Papa Johns admitted his “astronomic” costs for Obamacare would only add a dime to the cost of a pizza.
Do you know what minimum wage is in Seattle right this second? It’s $9.32, so going to up $11 is not nearly the drastic idea that much of the country believes. We won’t be at $15 until 2017.
Say the place as 10 tables. Adding 25cents to each entree would bring in an additional $20/hour minimum. That covers 8 employees’ increase to $11/hour, including the employers’ taxes. Purely hypothetical of course, but this is NOT an insurmountable hurdle. If they can afford the rent in Queen Anne, they can afford $11/hr employees.
My only point is this is not an insurmountable feat. Do they go out of business every time the cost of milk goes up? What about their property taxes? No, they deal with it like adults.
Katsstud says
Hi Julia…yes ignorance is bliss.
No, I have not run a restaurant business, but have extensive management history in small business and for several corporations. I suspect the Papa John’s and Queen Anne’s examples were manufactured by the proponents of the measure as I have seen the same pitch in a number of places…all the reason to be more skeptical about them.
All cost increases have a ripple effect….simple economics. To pretend that such is not the case is to just accept ignorance as the norm. Every tax and regulatory increase is sold on the dollar-a-day principle that vacuum cleaner salesmen used years ago, yet the cumulative effect is staggering. The volume of transactions in a Papa Johns is much different than the average restaurant, so the argument is specious for the average restaurant whether it be the ACA or a minimum wage gamble. Building arguments on best-case scenarios such as full tables and quick turnover does not reflect the average business which at that level and below will be the most affected. You will face a net loss of jobs with this measure without a doubt and little to gain for the supposed beneficiaries of this raise.
Unions provide the power for these changes as many of their contracts are tied to minimum wage indexes, and this is where the impact will be felt the most with increased bond debt, higher taxes, and don’t be surprised when the notion of a personal income tax rears its head once again. The minimum wage earners are used as dupes to drive the union’s greediness whose business has been staggered outside of the public sector. Many of the faithful are also being used to float the banner of fairness and populist hate, but in the end will hopefully realize their mistake.
The implication that those who disagree are children is petty, childish, and illogical. The price of milk is insignificant in the operating costs for a restaurant, but the price of labor is not, so please don’t make arguments that you can’t support and not expect feedback. Adults recognize the truth through experience and knowledge while children merely play at it. Seattle is an embarrassment.
James Hare says
Have you?
Jimmy says
The thing is with everyone making a fair wage people in your town can actually afford to shop at your business. Ever wonder why business is so difficult? Because no one has any money to buy the product or service you are trying to sell.
Bruce Pontner says
Totally agree! Where does the income taxes come from, the local and state taxes, insurance, ss taxes? These morons believe all you need to do is raise min wage and all will be well. Only one problem, there will be no business that would survive and no new business to open. So… you got your $15.00/hour but no job, no taxes for the state and city to waste, no police force, garbage pick up, transit system and all the other goodies small business pays for. Mr Fooa couple posts up obviously never ran a business and never will.
Commie Killer says
No, narcissism has been removed from the book of identifiable illnesses since Obama came to office. True story, check it out.
Sybil Wainwright says
These basic economics-challenged people should read “Atlas Shrugged.”
Jilt Tedd says
Don’t the taxes come out of the $15.00 an hour, except for the 7.5% Social Security Employer’s payment, which would be like $1.15, so $16.15 an hour.
ecec55 says
No they are an addition to the wages.
MCVet says
“You people think the world owes you and you don’t give a shit about anyone except yourself! I thinks that’s called Narcissism!” No that’s called OBama socialism 101.
Aaron Cissell says
Thats what it all boils to they didn’t want to go to school to get what they needed to earn that kind of money now that they will have 15 an hour mic-Ds will charge 12 dollars for a burger and they arent worth what they charge for them now…
ecec55 says
Aaron, They can’t just raise the prices. It is a franchise. Mickey D’s tells them what price they can charge. A burger will cost the same in Seattle as it would in Tacoma. Wages will have no effect on the prices of the products.
Katsstud says
Uh no. The franchises will not have a sustainable business model and the parent company will have to make accommodations for them to remain on stable footing or watch their regional business suffer. Try logic…its a good thing.
Steeeeeve_Perry says
Actually L&I is based on hours worked, not gross wages…..
Janice Pushinsky says
Had the rate of pay kept up with the cost of living the minimum wage would be $22 an hour. But the rich have been getting richer off the backs of their employees for years. perhaps if you can’t afford to pay your employees a liveable wage you shouldn’t have a business.
ecec55 says
Using you logic there would be very few small businesses open. Many are squeaking by. Of course you could always go look for another job. Free country and all.
Knack says
If prices are high, then solution isn’t raising the min wage but rather lowering it. Don’t really wanna get in the liberal-conservative dog fight, but speaking out of concern for the poorest. Lower costs across will enable more productivity & hence higher affordability.
Bakii says
You need deflation which means the central bank selling bonds to contract the available money in the economy by raising the interest rate, which will not happen since lower prices is a nightmare to them.
Mike Martini says
“Fair wage” is not the same thing as “I want more money even though my skills, output, or quality have not increased.”
Dwayne says
You can tell you are misinformed, uneducated, and unskilled because you atart every rebuttal by swearing. No wonder you call yourself a foo.
jhnjdy says
Mr. Foo, you need to stop reading fortune cookie.
Richard Winchester says
And just how many in that list are food service workers… That would be a big fat 0.
Bakii says
Why dont you find out first what is causing the rent in Seattle to be so expensive.
Katsstud says
Why thats supply and demand…wait a minute…thats not allowed:)
BobGuy says
None of these numbers indicate that business should not try to find a way to keep profit margins realistic for survival. The schedule does not matter. Seattle is becoming more expensive, so business will look for more profitable ground.
Edward Royce says
And ….. you are forgetting the wonderful synergistic effect from Obamacare.
Still. Good luck with that. After all that’s such a huge pile of horse manure there must be a pony in there somewhere. Right?
Guest says
Foo is NOT stupid! He is willfully, arrogantly ignorant. Bad policy drives out good money. People choose to live in poverty in expensive areas for intangible benefits such as surf or sunsets. Others choose to emigrate from areas suddenly unfriendly to their capital, e.g., the exodus from CA to TX, which is accelerating at this moment. Foo will attack them as capitalist bastards, but exit they will.
Hoppyman50 says
Hey Foo here are the facts that your basket weaving degree you earned fail to teach you about simple economics as it relates to the cost of operating a business. One, there isn’t such a thing as “fair share” second “humanity” why do small business owners and entrepreneur put their own money on the line to open businesses? It’s to earn an honest living, your mixing up corporations and small businesses. A small businesses, especially restaurants work on razor thin profit and the wage increases will most assuredly it will be pasted on too the consumers.
What is the current wage is 9.47$ per hour in a 3 year period it will add an additional cost of 58% to the labor cost, each year the cost will be at 16% 2015, 18% 2016,15% 2017, this is not mentioning the additional increase in matching contributions on fed and state taxes along with unemployment contributions being increased. The last consideration to take in account is inflationary increases in cost of goods and services, when one sits back and even has a small child like understanding how the world works it becomes clear this is not going to help in creating wealth or jobs, it will have the reverse effect, all goods and services will naturally go up with the cost of labor, or has this past by you seeing you haven’t analyzed the situation with any great depth or reason.
So please don’t post bs when you have no clue what your talking about!
William Craig says
is this 1900s where you drop out of high school and get a high paying job? no its 2015 and if you want to earn a nice living you go to college and learn something. most minimum wage jobs are for people that want to make extra money and college students not a job you work for the rest of your life. i have a lot of buddies the ones with a college degrees dont struggle for money the ones that dont most of them do. lazy people need to step it up and go learn to do something else like in the medical field bam be making good money once done with college.
Cliff Wells says
No one is trying to make anyone’s life miserable. But applying a “cure” that simply does not work is pointless. Would you also suggest that doctors who do not prescribe bloodletting as a cure for the influenza are “making other people’s lives harder”? If it doesn’t work, then it’s a pointless exercise, and worse, it prevents consideration of other, valid means for improving people’s lot.
Shawn McElhinney says
Oh wow, one extra year to avoid the shaft…big deal!
Here is the facts that folks like you are not smart enough to grasp: minimum wage labour is UNSKILLED labour. It means they are doing jobs that literally *ANYONE* can do. It is a transition job to something better when the person in question acquires some skills for which they can then move up wage wise. It is not intended to be a permanent gig and part of the motivation to move up when one acquires the skills to is that they can then get a…wait for it…BETTER PAYING JOB. But if you make the minimum wage some ridiculously high and arbitrary amount, that means businesses that can stay in business (albeit with downsized staffs cause newsflash: businesses will not take it in the shorts for this sort of thing) will then only hire *SKILLED* folks for those positions. And voila, you have just screwed over every high school and college kid who has never worked and has no skills from being able to get a job. Why? Because again, NO BUSINESS will pay an unskilled person $15/hr. PERIOD!
This is so simple that only an idiot cannot get it but then again: only idiots are trying to get a $15/hr minimum wage and thinking that it will not wreck havoc in the Seattle job market as a result.
Robert Rosenbaum says
You are the only one trying to impose your will on others. Why should any business owner pay more than they can afford OR more than the employees is worth to the organization?
mrtapeguy says
And where does the money to pay this much more come from?
borgcube says
Nothing but a bunch of touchy-feely gobbledygook. You obviously have no clue about the extent of employer contributions, how worker’s comp is calculated, etc. Why is that Mr. Foo? Perhaps because your vast experience running a business and making all ends meet has mostly been behind the counter pulling the Slurpee lever?
Hellebore says
Foo, you’re a prime example of a failed movement. Delusional to the last. Minimum wage jobs are not meant to support a person or family. Raising it will do nothing for anyone except cause inflation. This is an undeniable fact of economics.
Southernationalist says
This will only work if neighboring localities adopt the same totalitarian communist lunacy.
Scott Beers says
Just WHERE in the average 4% profit are the restaurateurs supposed to find the extra 6 to 11% to cover labor costs. 4% is SMALLER than either 6 or 11%. Simple math really.
One shot 1 says
Take your own advice “Mr.Foo” !!!!! You seem to be spouting plenty of specious bullshit yourself!!!
Alan says
You’re stupid! You really think that isan explanation when all of the adverse selection that is now on the government subsidized (taxpayer funded) insurance hasn’t driven the premiums up so sky-high that saving .50 an hour is making up any “difference? It costs hundreds of dollars per employee per month!
Snakepit6336 says
You should open a restaurant and show us how it’s done.
charle7551 says
I would not work for $28,000 per year just to own my own business. I tried it and when we, the wife and I kept records we earned .50 per hour each while we paid our employees a wage that was a minimum or higher. I never worked a 40 hour work week either so mr Foo suck it up butter cup because next year will not be any better. I might suggest you make use of the excellent free schooling available in Seattle because you demonstrate a total lack of IQ
Wavshrdr says
It is clear you’ve never operated a business. Get an education if you don’t want a minimum wage. Get marketable skills if you don’t want a minimum wage job. As others have mentioned, the wage isn’t all an employer is paying. It is far higher than what the worker receives. I have a better idea. Why not reduce what the government gets so more could go to the actual employee instead of some inefficient government program? When I opened my first restaurant, I was making FAR LESS than any single one of my employees for several years yet I was viewed as the “rich” business owner. Rich, my rectum.
You want to see the US tax code change in a moment? Have the employees get paid their gross wages and then have to write a check to the government for all the taxes they have to pay as well as the taxes, insurance, etc. the employer has to pay on their behalf (which lowers their wages). Your $15 an hour gross is closer to $20-22 on the employer side yet your actual net (after taxes in closer to $9 an hour. So who is getting more money than you? The GOVERNMENT is likely getting more money from your work than YOU are! Go complain to them, no some small or medium business owner who likely has invested their entire life’s savings to open the business that you are lucky enough to be employed by. First 5 years I ran my business I didn’t make over $20k a year and I was working 80 hours a week or more with no vacation. Do the math and see what I made per hour. After 7 years I said eff it as I was paying more in taxes, fees, etc. than I was making personally. Everyone should have to take business classes in high school to see how things really work. Not all business owners are “evil capitalist pigs”. Many are just like you who invested in a dream.
R_of_the_H says
So what do they pay electrical engineers?
Katsstud says
$250K I suspect.
R_of_the_H says
That value would be 21/2 times the average engineer rate in the area. Now 15hr is about the same ratio for toilet scrubber
Katsstud says
It’s called sarcasm R and ratios are helpful when an argument needs to work, as opposed to the real relationship between rarity and value.
Brady2600 says
Allowing people to decide for themselves what agreements for hourly pay they are willing to accept for themselves is the opposite of claiming you know what is good for them.
Where is your humanity for the people who’s skills are worth less than $15/hour? Apparently you would prefer that those people are unemployed.
Edward Bustamante says
I find it funny that you said this: “..make other peoples lives harder by claiming you know what is good for everyone.” Considering that is precisely what you are doing by advocating for FORCING business owners to accept a 20% to 40% increase in their labor expense by fiat of the federal government. Hypocrisy is your way, I guess.
Katsstud says
Humanity has nothing to do with it fool. It is simple math. When wages are raised, then costs need to be passed on to the customer who is not able to consume as much, therefore reducing revenue. What idiots.
Andy says
You’re the one who is full of shit. Obviously, you have never run a business but instead rely on the misinformation holier-than-thou political do-gooders spoon feed your sorry, uninformed ass. Where is our humanity? What the hell kind of question is that? You sound like some dumb ass college kid majoring in sociology.
Katsstud says
With a son in college at this moment, I am constantly amazed at the stupidity spewing forth from these supposedly learned teachers.
Daniel says
Foo, you are full of economic ignorance. Apparently you just want to make it harder for people to obtain and keep a job in this already extremely difficult climate. Explain to me how that’s helping the middle class and the poor?!?! If they have no job, their minimum wage is zero. Try telling the person who can’t get a job at $15/hr why you want to make it even more difficult for them to get into the workforce and work their way up where they are able to pay a $1500/month apartment rent.
Katsstud says
The law of unintended consequences is a cruel teacher, yet a favorite friend of the ideologue.
heltonja says
and yet you presume to know that doubling the price of labor is good for those people trying to run small businesses.
just curious would you support a $100 an hour minimum wage after all $13 an hour isn’t going to pay a mortgage in Seattle
Thaddeus says
Do you know how to run a calculator?? And why is it businesses responsibility to pay people enough
to live and not the people’s responsibility to live within their means or earn enough to live the way they want too???
Livable wages are in fact a liberal agenda, caused by liberal/democrats raising the cost of living everywhere by requiring the rich to pay for everything such as; more insurance, more regulation, more protections for everyone under them, more liability responsibility, more taxes, more wages… All of that falls on the
consumer and you are a f******g moron if you don’t think so.
I hope these restaurants close in major form, maybe then you will realize that you cannot force everyone to live they way you think they should live you f*****g communist.
You cannot keep adding and adding more and more fees to make people pay for other people. It is a never ending cycle that denies all opportunity for nearly everyone. Learn how to run a calculator and maybe you’ll figure it out before you and your friends destroy every job in this country. Idiot.
Gary says
That’s economic fascism. Maybe the govt should put out a list of what menu items at the restaurant should cost for you to post on chat room boards?
William Slider says
says the moron who has no idea how payroll is met. a business greatest expense is labor. that 15 doesnt include workmans comp, payroll taxes, etc etc etc. my workmans comp just for myself, 4K/yr
http://money.cnn.com/2013/02/28/smallbusiness/salary-benefits/
dumb and stupid is no way to go through life
Katsstud says
These guys hardly ever come into conflict with the knowing. They isolate themselves in groups that agree with each other about everything, yet know little. All hat…no cattle.
Commieobamie says
Mr Foo is full of Poo.
Sailsalot says
Notice how fast the liberal troll loses his temper and starts using foul language. Socialists are violent morons.
klausBarbie11 says
Yo foo. You obviously don’t understand basic mathematics principles.
Bruce Wayne says
I’m not saying I disagree with this wage schedule, since I’m not from Seattle I don’t have a dog in this fight, but I just want to point out that a mandated wage floor is the very definition of someone claiming they know what is good for everyone and then imposing it as the law of the land.
Duane Chamberlain says
U have no idea what yur talking about as a business owner having ran companies most of my career. You have no idea of labor burden, insurances, overhead or profit margins your post is a liberal hack job. #dontknowshit
Solipsis says
You like to use the word “shit” a lot. Your inability to express yourself and the ideas you post show what a moron you are.
jrdeahl says
And guess what. People on fixed income, like social security or VA disability, have been practically stagnant since Obama became prez! How are they supposed to increase their income to compensate for, not just food workers, but everythings going up!
Katsstud says
Raise their COLAS no doubt, and then raise SS taxes and limits no doubt. The never-ending train to disaster, yet at least we can “feel good” about ourselves for a few years until the next crisis.
George Bentley says
If something cost more, (labor) you have to charge more to afford it (menu prices) If people have to pay more to afford the new menu prices they have to make more money by demanding more for the services they provide. If they own property your rent will go up, if they work for an auto shop it’ll cost more to get your car fixed. In few years a fair wage will be $22.00 an hour and the cycle will begin again.
Katsstud says
The whole argument of the left is based on an unrealistic view of profit and the class warfare envy of success. Guaranteed outcomes are only fantasies to those who don’t understand reality.
I don’t know about you, but most of the terms the ideologies use don’t mean what they think they do.
Bill Rawley says
And that keeps businesses open how?
hoya says
Did you get it from Missing Hillary’s emails?
Paul Blazewick Jr. says
mr foo – actually, mr magoo would be more appropriate given your ignorance of basic economics – unless you have signed the FRONT of a paycheck, your stoner ramblings are incoherent nonsense to those of us who have. to the rest of the civilized world, your delusional rant is nonsense to anyone with working neurons.
now, mommy is calling you for your bath. GO!
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot says
I don’t get how this is such a difficult concept to understand….
1. People bitch about not being able to afford anything.
2. A company/business is forced to raise the pay.
3. That company/business raises prices of goods/services so they can afford to pay that raise.
~repeat~
Jefferson Paine says
Mr. Foo, I would ask *you* where is *your* humanity? Where is your intelligence?
Imagine you and I own a fast-food restaurant. We pooled all our money (say $200K) to start the business. We have an average of 20 people working in the store 24×7 (a total team of say 100). Adding $5/hr to their wages raises costs $2400 per day (($5/hr *20 people) * 24 hours = $2400). That does *not* include increased payroll taxes and such.
That’s over $73,000 per month and $876,000 per year of increased costs. The very best fast-food restaurants bring in $2.5M per year, so let’s say you and I are good enough to make $2M – then the “fair wage” just increased our costs by 50% of our total revenue!!!
Where does the money come from to pay that $876K per year?
Do we raise prices 50% plus? Do we buy cheaper food? Fire people? Speaking of humanity, tell us Mr. Foo, how do we stay in business and keep paying our 100 employees at least something as well as put food on our own tables and pay rent for our own families?
You tell us Mr. childish name-caller, how do we pay nearly a million dollars more per year in costs when at best, we can only make $2M?
Katsstud says
Because his political masters said so and those bereft of clarity of thought only believe those things that support their religious beliefs.
Rick Lackey says
I notice you say “large employers”…..most if not all of the restaurants are NOT “large employers!….Mcdonalds mabe, but even they are franchised and those who own them pay a majority of their earning for franchise fees! The mom and pop diners and restaurants will fail. A fair wage is ok, but $15/hr is too much to pay non skilled workers!
wayne8734 says
Mr.Fool,I mean Foo,you can rant and rave all you want but the facts are what they are,read the damn article. Many businesses are closing down because of the raises and the ones left will raise their prices.When the prices are raised,fewer people will patronize the restaurants,fewer people mean layoffs!!!!!
Whoknows says
It’s all relative. If you pay someone $15/hr to do a $10/hr job (50% more than they’re worth), then you have to pay the skilled worker making $15 right now 50% more. Otherwise, why would a skilled worker keep working their job if they could make just as much doing easy jobs. All this does is drive up inflation.
Katsstud says
Very true simply because the worker making only slightly more will consider switching to the job making less that requires less work, less stress, and less hours.
Mr. Foo says
“Get some skills” Just go get em eh?? Your over simplification shows your intelligence. You should be ashamed of yourself. Seriously.
Jennifer Connelly says
Stuck on stupid…
Katy Wilkerson says
Those minimum wage jobs that you abhor are suppose to be where people gain skills for better jobs later in life. The ones who stay on minimum wage forever are either completely stupid or have absolutely no ambition to better themselves. With the online classes, pay as you go classes, and financial aide for those who are poorer, there is no excuse for anyone to not be able to. Minimum wage for minimum skills. Want more money? Find a way to learn skills to earn more. I had to work my way up, why can’t everyone else?
dezaad says
Katy: You have described what people can do if they are reasonably smart and ambitious. But, if they are stupid and earning minimum wage for life, what should they do about their “stupidity”? Can you be smarter than you already are? I can’t. Do you think they can?
Sane_American says
Stupid people should just be poor apparently.
jsinnp says
Or stupid people should go on welfare?
If a stupid person is willing to work and not be on welfare they should be able to at least make a living wage.
Those that can leverage their experience will do so.
jsinnp says
Those of us that are smart, well exucated clever etc need to make a decision
1) are we willing to pay a bit more for luxury and convenience ( like eating at a swanky restaraunt or getting take out instead of eating at home by cooking ) or
2) do we want to pay welfare, which comes out of taxes we pay, to support employees of establishments that do not pay a living wage
Katsstud says
Specious argument…and the educated and clever part is as well. Logical fallacies such as the either/or are often used by ideologues to support shaky thought. This is neither educated nor clever.
Katsstud says
I guess that the only problem is that the living wage is a baseless fantasy and pretty much denies the rest of the argument.
cliffthatcher says
Stupid people ARE poor by the very nature of being stupid.
Michael Capanelli says
What they can do, and government should do, is to take away from the military budget and invest in infrastructure, then take these life long minimum wage earners and train them to build and repair it.
cliffthatcher says
Uhhh…. National safety and security are the number one priority for our Federal gov’t so howzabout taking money from someplace ELSE where it’s being spent by these braintrusts in gov’t., as in the 900K spent on cowboy poetry in Nevada thanks to Hairy Reed or the doll museum in Texas funded by the gov’t or any of the other wastes of money we are all aware of (studying the sex lives of insects, etc.) as well as those we don’t even know about
cliffthatcher says
“You can’t fix stupid” – whether it be the people who don’t have the necessary skills/attitude to make a decent living or the government people who make decisions such as this.
Katsstud says
Part of your value are your innate strengths, yet many can be overcome to some extent when focused in certain ways. No doubt you have met people that reach the Einstein level who have been very successful because they used the talents they have in valuable ways.
Sane_American says
Ah, the typical justification for keeping minimum wage low. Fact is a large amount of the poor barely survive on minimum wage. They’ve been stuck at the same jobs for years now. You really think employers really want to give employees a promotion/raise when they don’t have to?
Karl says
yes, absolutely if the person is deserving of it!! If the employee is good that makes the employer more money so the employer will want to give him/her a raise so they can keep that valuable employee.
freedom247 says
There are many avenues to advance yourself, and yes, employers really do give promotions and raises. I’ve received them many times.
http://profoundlydisconnected.com/foundation/
G Trieste says
Magical thinking is phun!
Money comes out of thin air!
If I put blinders on, nothing else happens out of my sight!
cliffthatcher says
You do realize, don’t you, that if these people who can’t seem to make more than minimum wage had bothered to pay attention while in school, had had the right attitude about learning and succeeding, they probably wouldn’t be stuck making minimum wage now, would they.
Katsstud says
Specious argument based on logical fallacies.
Michael Capanelli says
Online and pay as you go, please. You could completely learn a tech job on youtube and treehouse for $25 a month, then go freelance on 99 designs or similar sites to build your portfolio. It can and has been done, it just takes perseverance and determination.
Steve Weinstein says
A lot of sympathy there for people of limited intelligence or who actually might have a mental disability. But then, you’re obviously a conservative, so I understand that this is your version of Christian charity.
Katsstud says
Thanks for playing with hatred and bigotry. Name calling from a basis of ignorance and presumption. Must make momma proud.
cafeblue says
Yes. People have been doing it since the dawn of time. i know I got tired of doing things like washing boats at a marina or emptying bed pans in a nursing home when I was young, and found a construction company that would pay me to pick up trash and sweep out their jobs. They started me a dollar an hour over minimum, and after a year I made 3 over. Today I’m a tradesman and earn a good living. I’m not exceptional; if anything, I’m gloriously average. You should be ashamed of arguing for limitations in the poor. It is soft bigotry at best.
Paul Blazewick Jr. says
you should be ashamed of taking people’s livelihoods from them
Katsstud says
Too funny Mr. Foo. Thy name is irony.
Sane_American says
And what happens when everyone get those skills? Those jobs would pay minimum wages. All you are doing is crawling your way in front of other wages, not really solving the problem of underpaid menial employees.
Scott says
By getting a job that pays the bills, you mean a job of sitting on your butt in an office as an administrator, accountant, IT Tech, HR rep, or some other management or office position. Great! Now take all that expertise and pay your bills when you have nobody actually doing the work that gives you a reason for your cushy job of sitting in the A/C with carpeting and a desk. Pushing a pencil doesn’t get the job done! LABORERS get the job done! Get your nose out of the air and actually get some dirt under your nails before you tell someone to get skills! Can you weld the structure of the office building you work in? Can you fix the problem with the engine of the Mercedes you drive and have to lower yourself to taking the bus when it doesn’t start for you? Can you even clean your own house without having a housekeeper or maid do it for you? These are real skills that should be appreciated and paid as much or more than those that keep bankers hours with hour long lunches and free corporate transportation! People with your attitude can’t hold a candle to THE WORKING STIFF!
Katsstud says
A fantasy of the left Scott. I worked ditches, fast food, and other situations that required “LABORERS” while making myself more valuable to employers. Those jobs taught me that workers do not make it happen but are only tools in the hands of skilled businesspeople and that I had no intention of leaving myself so few options. Without the businesses to work for, the ideas and motivation that drive them, and the leadership skill to organize them, these LABORERS would be milling about the street with no significant purpose. When one of them rises up and organizes the others to focus their energies, then his value rises as a manager and will gain him more benefit (but then you’ll just call him a suit and berate him due to envy). I have pulled so many people up from the working stiff category by allowing them to show their full potential over the years that there is little doubt this is true.
Your examples are inconsistent as some are skilled, and some are not. An auto mechanic these days requires significant skill while a housekeeper does not, and their pay reflects the difference in economic value. The working stiff has his place and there will always be a need, but true value is not dictated by dirt under the fingers. The other favorite people to hate that you mention have gained that value through the benefits they add to their organizations. You truly need to understand how that is so before embarrassing yourself with the tired 60’s cliches and union propaganda.
Scott says
Excellent point about an auto mechanic requiring significant skills! So the mechanic should be paid significantly more than the person that sits at the desk and directs the customers to the skilled mechanic that can repair the vehicle that the “suit” can’t! That mechanic can give the customer their personal phone number and address and tell them he will do the job for far less when he gets off the clock. The customer wins by paying less and the mechanic gets paid more because the “suits” aren’t skimming the profits of the “skilled laborer”. Many of them do it as have I. LABORERS are “TOOLS IN THE HANDS OF SKILLED BUSINESS-PEOPLE”? A “HOUSEKEEPER DOES NOT REQUIRE SIGNIFICANT SKILLS”? What an “ARROGANT and SNOBBISH” comment to make! Are teachers “tools in the hands of the skilled business people that run the schools that that these teachers taught them to run? This is just one example. Why should the president of a university be paid more than the teachers who taught them to get their job in the first place? “UNION PROPAGANDA”? Unions were created to keep arrogant people like you from demanding that the working man be forced to do what they are not hired to do! Businesses want people to do the jobs of those that are paid more than them for lower wage they are being paid. Are you sure you aren’t a politician?
Chef Awesomesauce says
‘Scuse me? Are you under the impression that being cook requires no skills? Come work in my kitchen for a day. I guarantee you’ll change your outlook.
urdumb says
Well then perhaps I’ll just go out and get a couple hundred thousand dollar loan for college… That will fix everything right? Indebted servitude on a college gamble using taxpayer funding?
Manny Stockton says
Sure, go to college to get better skills on WHAT MONEY? Higher education isnt free. And unless you are a single mother or a minority you dont qualify for loans and grants. Telk me, how is one supposed to better themselves when they work at a wage where they barely make rent and utilities?
lordoffantasy says
you show massive ignorance with that statement. far too many people CAN’T gain the skills because they are in such horrible economic situation, most often out of their own control as well, that college is not even an option. you cannot fault people who cannot get ahead for not getting ahead. its like accusing a cripple for being lazy.
Katsstud says
Unfortunately more often than not just an excuse and probably indicative of your moniker.
juliabliss says
Where does one get said skills? Do they drop out of the sky? You try working at $8/hr to support yourself while learning a new trade.
I know several people with certificates and degrees, still stuck working minimum wage jobs. That doesn’t mean you don’t deserve a little dignity, or the ability to both eat and pay rent in the same month, or gawd forbid, set some money aside for emergencies.
Steven Nottingham says
Who will wait tables? Who will cook in fine dining establishments? I wait tables in Oregon. And I have split my tips with the Kitchen Staff? Out of control.. Owners don’t want to pay. So? Get out of business. It isn’t hurting anyone really. For everyplace that shuts down there will be extra customers in places that stay open. And I am a career waiter. I don’t work for min wage. I average around 14 an hour. But I still have to tip salaried employes? Just not right
Katsstud says
People tend to greatly choose their life and yet constantly complain they have no control and want others to change instead to benefit them.
Jimmy says
Then the restaurants will close anyway. Don’t you understand someone has to flip burgers if you want to eat at a burger joint?
Bob says
Arty G, you are oversimplifying the problem. One of my best friends has a college education and is working a minimum wage job. No jobs in her field of study are available in the area. To afford a 2 bedroom apartment on minimum wage would require working 80 hours a week in virtually every part of the US.
Katsstud says
Which begs the question…why are so many going to college without the realization of the outcome? Society spends a great deal of energy selling college as the only way to “success” and ensures registration through billions of dollars of loans that will remain unpaid without adding significant value in most cases. Too many colleges are graduating piles of students with “education” in areas that have little transferrable value.
The apartment comment fails because minimum wage jobs are not meant to support a fully independent lifestyle and never will. Get roommates, live with family, or find an alternative while making yourself more valuable.
MrLightRail says
You have to make a living while getting those skills, dummy. If you can’t pay your bills and rent from the low paying job, how the HELL do you expect someone to go to school and get those skills?
hoya says
The only dummy I see is YOU!
If there is a will there is a way!……
Get two jobs and study at night, get diploma over the internet!
You sound like one lazy BUM
Katsstud says
Hey genius. Are you saying people don’t do this EVERY DAY? What a buffoon.
hoya says
Yes, but that requires work, effort, drive, concentrating…..much easier to spew prepared talking points and looking for what THE WORLD and the Wealthy owe you to equalize inequality!
M.-J. Taylor says
Someone has to do unskilled work – and those who labor for us in the most basic ways also deserve a living wage … the consequence of not making sure they are paid enough to live on is a burden on society in the form of food stamps, housing and health care subsidies.
Katsstud says
So just a thought, if we redistribute the wealth in a perfect world and guide the federal subsidies away from the “poor'” then what is the net effect on the economy? Hmmm…not so brilliant huh. No wait, I am sure the feds will lower taxes to compensate…lol.
The living wage is a fluffy lie M/J/ When you pay people more than they are economically worth, you have many unintended consequences, and the people you claim to help will receive little.
depression anxiety patient says
I live in Vancouver, Canada. Everyone needs to get their heads out of their asses and realize that you can’t just go get skills and land a job either in Canada or America. The jobs need to be there first. On top of that, employers are just being cheap bastards. While they are living in their multimillion dollar houses, everyone working for them are barely making more than enough to stay away from food banks. HTF is that fair living. Its not. Our minimum wage here is hitting $10.45/hr in September. No one here can afford to live with bills going up in price every month. The cost of food and rents are going up as well.
Katsstud says
I can see why you have your moniker because solid argument is rather alien to you. Love the stereotypes and generalities as well. Funny how people are making it regardless of those price increases, yet the class envy never ends.
kikakookoo says
How do you expect people to go to college when they have to work 40 hours a week to barely get by. How are they supposed to pay and make time to go? What if they have kids? How do they pay for daycare? There are many layers to this issue, “go get some skills” is a moronic.
Katsstud says
College is a poor argument as most people shouldn’t waste their time, but there are many other avenues such as trades and self-employment that are better roads for most. So yes…get some skills, whether it be from volunteerism, education, or experience, and stop making excuses.
Scott Thompson says
You didn’t read article at all, did you? Please tell me how your wishes can change the match.
cafeblue says
He likely believes unicorns fart glitter, which is used to fertilize the money trees.
G Trieste says
But they do.
And the money trees give off that much more money.
Twice as much as they would if unicorns didn’t exist.
reepotomac says
1.FAIR is what two people agree upon,and not what you have to do to stay out of jail.
2.People can’t spend money twice. More money on food means less on everything else, OR the same on everything else and less eating out.
You need to advocate for a $50 an hour minimum wage, that would solve everything I think.
Jennifer Connelly says
$86,000.00 annually for an entry level position at McDonalds? Really?? You must have gone to public schools.
Devin W Congema says
Lol these people can’t even grasp basic economics. Ask them why not have a 100 dollar an hour minimum wage…. what about 1,000 dollars an hour? Pick some arbitrary number they probably STILL wont figure out why that’s a bad idea haha
cliffthatcher says
I do believe he was being facetious.
Grizzly907LA says
Typical from a useful idiot communist piece of s**t that doesn’t goddamn thing about economics!
reepotomac says
You guys need to actually read what I wrote in response to Mr.Foo, then you need to think about its actual meaning in regards to what he said.
cliffthatcher says
Some of us ‘got it’ and wholeheartedly agree with you. Comments such as those written by some on here show they really don’t read the words in a post, they simply react in a partisan manner and in doing so, give us Conservatives who actually understand the issue a bad rap. Keep on keepin’ on.
Tim Fetterman says
You act like there is an unlimited amount of money to go around! If you put more money in one person’s pocket, you take it out of another one’s. Unlike the federal government, citizens just can’t print money. If wages are $10/hour and you employ 3 people, and you force them up to $15/hour, only 2 people are going to be employed! Yes, 2 people might have it slightly better, but the other one is screwed. AND THAT, is what raising the minimum wage, AND OBAMACARE, has done!
DanielW81 says
On a large scale, you’d be part right. Raising the min wage will allow for a larger income base. Unfortantely the only entities large enough to absorb the additional expense are large corps. So, you want to eat at the family diner down the road….sorry, go get Dennys or IHOP. That really good steakhouse downtown, oops it’s gone, better go to Outback. Hell, I’m happy that Seattle is committing tourist suicide by killing it’s small businesses. Maybe Jimmy Graham will come back to NOLA to get some real food
cafeblue says
You don’t pay people more money simply because they want it, or need it, or even because it’;s a good idea. You pay them more because that’s what the market demands. Simply mandating higher wages when the labor being purchased by the employer does not add any more value. Every industry finds it’s own level of wage equilibrium. A finbisgh carpenter of a tile setter may earn 25 or 30 dollars an hour or more, because it takes years to learn and not just anyone an od it. A food server can learn their trade in a maonth or two, and are a lot more easily replaced.
Personal;y I thinks any minimum wage is unnecessary. if some employer wants to offer two dollars an hour, fine. Let’s see if he can get anyone to take it, or live with the people who do. I know in my trade, you couldn’t get an apprentice for under 15 dollar an hour. That’s the market in the trade.
No one is going to have “extra money to spend” making minimum wage, unless making extra money is why they’re doing it to begin with.But when the 10 dollar ah hour burger flipper sees his wage go to 15, but then realizes his employer (who actually pays closer to 18 after workers comp and unemployment insurance) is cutting his hours or laying others off. It will also give him a temporary boost until all the other goods and services of the city have to bump their prices to cover their employees raises, at which point the burger flipper’s 15 dollars an hour is going to be about like his 10 dollars an hour was before, an he’ll be demanding 20 or 25. Meanwhile, what added value does he bring to the table to justify the employer paying him more? Is he generating more business? Since the prices will surely raise, it is doubtful. Is he working any harder or smarter than he did before? In what way is he making the business owner more profitable?
Here’s something else to consider: every time the minimum wage rises, everyone else making more than that gets a pay cut. Why? because of the higher costs the minimum wage creates. I make well above minimum wage. And lastly, paying that burger flipper 15 dollars an hour only encourages him to stay in a minimum wage job that much longer. rather than using low wages as a motivator for self improvement and learning a more marketable skill. This gums up the works for new immigrants, parolees and teens entering the work force for the first time trying to get entry level jobs.
jakee308 says
Exactly. This is what happens with Union contracts and wage increases. Union wages only works if the rest of the economy is operating on a market basis. Otherwise the Union worker would have to pay other Union workers inflated wages.
Unions are all about being parasites on the business they have latched onto and the community they’ve found a home in.
Look at any of the areas that used to be large Union strongholds. They’re mostly Democrat run and they’re mostly in debt with pensions for government workers bringing them to their knees and soon to bankruptcy. But the Unions still won’t budge. They’d rather see it all crumble than take a pay cut. Ask the folks in the Steel Industry. Oh wait. You can’t because most of them got driven out of business by Union contracts, Union strikes and Union benefits so they were uncompetitive and they went belly up or reduced and mechanized their manufacturing.
The majority of Unions today are government unions and they’re driving the taxpayers out of the cities and states where they’ve run rampant.
Let’s elect Walker to do for DC what he did for Wisconsin and see how the economy turns around with fewer parasites sucking the life blood out of the system.
dustyoutlaw says
Less than 3% of American Workers are in Unions. And yet you beat the same ole tired drum. Idiots.
Katsstud says
Dusty…thy name is irony.
Katsstud says
This is why most union power is centered in the public sector because wage and benefit inflation is covered through taxes and corruption. Something no business could compete with.
dustyoutlaw says
People like you are why the oil companies raise the price of gasoline when they have more oil than at anytime in our history. You barely finished high school right? Nothing even resembling a degree economics related right? I’m pro gun, anti illegal, pro workfare, anti welfare. I am not a liberal. However I do understand Capitalism which you obviously do not. You clearly support corporate Welfare. That’s not capitalism. That’s Feudalism. I Burger flipper in Australia makes 15.00 an hour. And the overall price of a McDonald’s Menu in Australia is slightly less expensive than the menu in Southern California. You really should know something about what you’re talking about.
Katsstud says
Hey Dusty…remember that old drum you talk about so much…snicker. Guess it only matters if the drum belongs to someone you disagree with. I do have an Economics degree BTW and your McDonalds argument has been passed around the liberal rags along with the Walmart nonsense for a long time so I doubt your claims about political affiliation greatly. The burger flippers do not make $15/hr in Australia because most of their workers are exempt from the minimum wage laws due to their age. Australia is also one of the leaders in automating fast food service to reduce workforces along with Europe to keep prices down displacing the previously employed. The cost of such food is also higher in Australia by a bit regardless of what HuffPo says, but keep on crowing about what you know little about. Never use ideological rags and OpEd pieces as proof sources if you don’t want laughter in response.
Tax revenues are the largest beneficiary of gas prices, but we still beat the oil companies which are public corporations owned by thousands of entities. Yes, lets keep raising the very taxes paid proportionately by the poorer citizens and blame it on oil companies. Make the “rich” pay most of the Federal taxes and the half that pay none at all get to complain about them. When will these angry children ever learn.
G Trieste says
You heartless monster
How can you let people make less money per hour, when they really really want it to be more?
Think of the children!
Katy Wilkerson says
They won’t make rent on $0 per hour either. In case you didn’t read the article, a restaurant taking in $700,000 a year only makes a profit of $28,000 for the owner. That’s not the “billions” that they accuse business owners of “stealing”. Basic math doesn’t seem to be a strong point for a lot of policymakers nowadays…
G Trieste says
And a $15/hour employee would make $31,200 per year, plus health insurance plus unemployment insurance.
Amazing how the employer will wind up working for the employee, paying him more than he will make himself as the owner and risk taker of the enterprise.
Amazing.
Katsstud says
Having run several small businesses in California and for several large corporations in executive roles, I think too many have no clear idea of the reality of business, yet clamor on as if they did.
Small businesses in most sectors are very difficult to manage and prosper from. Growth is difficult due to regulatory and financial regulation and dwindling margins. There is no economy of scale in most businesses so material costs don’t give you much advantage in a price-point market, and labor costs for a legitimate business will march your prices out of range. Too many people will hire the unskilled to do a crappy job for a little less money and spend their days rationalizing the outcome. How ironic that we argue about wages and complain about prices at the same time.
The best benefits major corporations have is the ability to weather storms more easily and spread their downside risk. Small businesses usually just founder and sink. I know many business owners who personally sink financially while keeping their employees afloat, so the generalizations are laughable.
Grizzly907LA says
This is the real world and not socialist la la land. Raising the minimum wage to $15 only works out in socialist la la land, but not so well in the real the world.
Cyrano Jones says
If only that scum were more like you. Then we’d all be as happy as you are.
PS: ‘Socialist la la land’ makes me giggle.
Mark Dietzler says
And who decides if a wage is “fair”? The Government? And what is it about restaurant workers that entitle them to a living wage? Seems to me that if you cannot afford an apartment by yourself, you go find someone looking for a room mate, and share the rent. That is called living within your means. I have little sympathy for those poor depressed waiters who can’t find anything else to do other than than wait tables, but expect to have a living standard on par with a veteran electrical engineer working at Boeing. Perhaps if they knew how to do something more useful, like residential electrical work, or plumbing (neither of which requires a college degree, and earn good money), they wouldn’t be living hand to mouth.
Well, they got their government mandated minimum wage, just like they wanted. And now, they get to deal with the consequences. Consequences they were warned would happen by those opposed to it. But did they listen? Oh hell no, they had to Stick It To The Man™.
handsix says
Great answer Mark. People should watch a few of the black and white movies back before there was government handouts, minimum wages, and easy credits. Friends shared an apartment. Children stayed home until older but unlike the ones who do it today they were saving for a home and future or helping with the family finances until they became more successful. They had pride in any job they were doing and earned every penny. Today people think they’re OWED a living and that they DESERVE nice things just because that’s what they want. The truth is we are not owed anything by society and we deserve whatever we can legally earn with our bodies and minds.
cliffthatcher says
When in comes to people waiting tables, and I was one many years ago, I honestly don’t understand why all the fuss about minimum wage. Sure, we were paid less than minimum wage, but our tips MORE than made up for it. After a four hour shift at a family restaurant in St. Paul, it wasn’t uncomomon to take home more than $150.00 in tips – back in 1976! My Mother was a waitress after she left us in the early 60s and made enough income to buy her own home. She had a decent life as do most others who do such work. Those who didn’t make the tips were the sort who either didn’t like people or couldn’t get it together enough to do the job and it showed at the end of the day. Minimum wage should be ZERO!
pappy51 says
Minimum wage hurts young black people the worst. Fact. Which means you’re just another bigot. Stupid racist.
dbb1031 says
You can’t be serious…..math is not your strong suit.
Devin W Congema says
Mr. Foo who are you to advocate the guns of government be aimed at peaceful people? Who are you to determine what is “fair”? If 2 people voluntarily negotiate a wage who are you to point guns at them to say nope ” I say” it’s not fair? Mind your own business it’s people like you these busy bodies who can’t just go about their life without getting involved in the affairs of other people via “the government” which is the most immoral and irresponsible way to solve problems. You advocate economic fascism if you want the government to control wages. Before you start calling me a republican i’m anti politics and anti initiation of force. I’d be delighted to discuss philosophy and morals as well as ethics. All I’m saying is economic reality is absent your emotional filled response. Minimum wage is a one size fits all socialist policy that interferes with the free and voluntary negotiation between employer and potential employee. If someone’s wage is not worth “x” amount of dollars the company is wasting its money that could be used for some other expense from within said company. There’s no magical button you can push that can make a small business magically come up with capital so they can afford expenses this is something those who advocate for economic fascism fail to understand. You’re hurting the little guy and making it hard for poor people to get a job. If someone was with a company for a long time and they have earned said wage overtime do you think it’s moral for you to aim the guns of government so that new people get hired for that same wage as the person with the company for many years? This is akin to communism because now what incentive does that person who has been there for many years have to work harder if some new people can get hired in 1 day and make what he earned throughout the years on day 1….?
Don & Cristina Smith says
I’ll just ignore most of what you said but please tell me just how cheap foreign cars are, a?
Greg Carlson says
Except paying people a fair wage is a conservative issue because fair is what both parties agree to. An unfair wage would be one that people are forced to pay and some people would have to close their businesses because of it.
billyoblivion says
“at 9.52 (current minimum wage) people are slaves.”
No, they are not. To say that is utterly pathetic.
People who make minimum wage are employees of *minimal value*. Slaves are bought and sold, they have (note present tense because there are many, many slaves in the world today) no agency, they have no ability to improve their lot through study and practice, it matters not what they do, until their owner chooses to free them (or someone with guts and morals does it) they are slaves.
A minimum wage employee has agency and choice. They can chose to make their lot in life better, or they can choose to spend it on cheap wine and sin (to borrow a phrase from TSOL).
4 times in 11 years my wife worked her way up from a shit entry level job (copy operator, receptionist, Customer Service Rep (twice)) to “middle class” positions, just by being on time, clean, and working hard. Her last job (before deciding she wanted to stay home with the baby) was QA team lead for a moderately successful web company. She did this within 3 years of starting at the company as a “customer service representative”.
Minimum wage was never designed or intended to be a “living wage” for head of families, it was intended to be a baseline for entry level workers. As you raise that minimum wage you price minimally skilled and minimally competent workers out of the market and make it harder and harder for them to get the skills they need to make *more* than minimum wage.
Then people like you demand redistributionist policies to “care” for the people you’ve made it impossible to employ.
John Leinaweaver says
or simply reduce everyones wages. Businesses will have less labor cost and will lower their prices so that people can buy more. There, see how it works!
abbygal64 says
So you are right and all the restaurants and auditors are wrong. I take it you haven’t been around much. Raise the salaries, = raise the menu prices outrageously =less people can afford to go out to eat and it’s already showing in Seattle and that is a math problem. Something has got to give. These restaurants WANT to stay in business and have been working at it for a year. Many are small businesses, mom and pop cafes and they can’t pay that kind of salary and still make a profit to live on, they have to live to. Mom and Pop restaurants barely make it now, no one is getting rich by any means. We already have the highest minimun wage in the country. Working in fast food was never to be a career, it’s a step towards a career. Read the article by clicking on the picture, way too many financial businesses are weighing in on this. Many of these people working in fast food dropped out of school, many of them. They need to get educated so they can get a better paying job. Fast food jobs were for high school students as part time for play money, they graduate and the next group of high school students step in and do this over and over again. Some continue to stay on and not further their education and that is the problem, it should be a revolving door, not a career.
warryer says
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkodTydUR0E
Vinnie Garbone says
So with businesses closing, where will these $15/hr jobs be?
Everything you wrote would imply you did not read the article. It’s a math problem, not political.
BobGuy says
When you say “fair wage”, just what do you mean? I admit that $15 per hour is not a great wage, but if it is the Minimum wage, that puts the cost of having a kid do clean up and bus tables out of reach for a lot of outfits. You seem to overlook the definition of Minimum, also. But don’t presume I don’t empathize with folks who have a tough time finding rewarding work. But I also feel that having some job is better than having no job at all. If you focus only on large businesses that may be able to more easily absorb the added cost and reduced profit you may make a valid argument, but the local operations will suffer, transferring cost to the larger business operations, inspiring the company to reduce burden by eliminating your local presence in many cases. This story focuses on the dining industry. Looking at the process, from farm, to processor, to distributor, to restauranteur, to table, every step of “locally produced” fresh food will experience an increase in cost. Suppliers who operate outside of Seattle will be favored over locals, reducing their business clientele at the same time that their own labor expenses increase. It doesn’t matter what schedule you apply, because there is not a commensurate climate change occurring in competing economic environments that offer better return on investment and reduced operational expenses.
Whine about the complaints from the business owners if you like. But the examples of businesses leaving Seattle should not be ignored. This is a politically induced hardship that has an economic answer. The problem is going to be the suffering of those who are underemployed becoming unemployed and becoming a greater burden on the public support system. That system will experience (possibly) a reduced tax base because of a less robust business environment and fewer tax dollars to spend on the benefit programs that the folks put out of work by the reaction of business to the new policy.
AngryJhon says
Did you not read the article? If restraints close down, reduce hours, or fire workers how does this help anyone? You’ll end up with fewer jobs at fewer hours.
William says
Hmm… seems like Mr. Foo’s last name must be Lish. My restaurant has been open 29 years. Minimum wage was $3.35 at that time, and I could afford to start people at $5.00. The problem with raising the minimum, is that it takes money out of the pockets of those who would seek to better themselves by gaining skills or taking on more responsibility. When I opened, there was a $6.00 range between the lowest paid hourly employee and the highest paid hourly employee. By the time minimum wage reached $4.75, I had to go ahead and start people at that to be able to keep my better employees at a higher rate. As the minimum has been raised, the range has shrunk. Now the range is less than $1.50. Because CA’s $9.00 minimum costs me $11.48 per hour to pay. Yup, with taxes, insurance, and other costs that are directly tied to payroll. That’s just minimum. $15 an hour would cost so close to $20 as to be completely ridiculous as a minimum wage. Workers need to generate value that is commiserate with their hourly pay, otherwise you are running a charity and not a business. Government mandated raises without regard for market conditions are for communist regimes, not the USA. Uneducated people (like Mr. Foo) who vote are the real problem. Please retake Economics 101, open your own business, or at least read Ayn Rand’s “The Fountainhead” (which explains how raising the lowest paid workers comes right out of the pockets of those just above them better than I can in a one paragraph post).
Dr. Tar says
You can’t pay people more than their productivity is worth. It’s simple economics. The article clear shows how thin the margins are in the restaurant business and this minimum wage hike makes labor more expensive than it’s contribution to the establishments operations.
If an employee can do the work that 21/2 other people were doing before, then sure raise the rates. But it appears a lot of businesses with tight margins are unable to achieve the productivity gains needed to afford the higher wages.
I’m surprised retail stores aren’t being affected as well, or are they?
Minimum wages are for those who need to enter the workforce with their first employment. There are going to be a lot of people in Seattle who would like to earn a bit of money, develop work skills and experience and demonstrate a track record of steady employment to a future who will offer higher wages to a better more skilled employee who is more productive, but won’t be able to find it.
Unfortunately the first rungs on that ladder will be pulled further upwards and out of reach of those seeking entry level employment. It will stay that way until inflation catches up with the high minimum wage and erode the value back down to the worth of the productive effort of the minimum wage job.
Unless of course you want people trying to break into the work place to take unpaid internships in order to gain the experience and references they need to impress a future employer.
Jim Speed says
You really are SHORT SIGHTED aren’t you… you can argue this bullshit all you want.. but in the end, we have WARNED you what is going to happen.. what is ALREADY happening. When the shit is in piles around your feet, WHAT are you going to say THEN idiot?
Snowdog says
You don’t know what you’re talking about. Businesses will raise their prices to cover the increased labor costs. Higher prices will dissuade people from purchasing; and then some businesses will close. Not all of them will close; but some will. That’s the economic reality. You can’t just wish it away.
emersonushc13 says
marxists care about people like pedophiles care about children. Mr. Poo will move on when this crashes and burns and do it all over again with something else. Cloward-Piven.
Tom says
How are the restaurant operators supposed to pay a “fair” wage for others to spend if doing so puts them out of business, meaning NO ONE gets paid, period. What a moron.
Unlicensed Dremel says
The minimum wage is not only absolutely, positively, a 100% liberal / leftist idea, it’s been proven time and again to hurt the poorest among us and the economy in general.
David R says
Minimum wage is just that- MINIMUN. It is an entry level job. Where people develop their work ethics and improve themselves so they can move on to a better job.
Cliff Wells says
You haven’t completely thought this through:
1) Minimum wages increase, minimum wage workers have more money. Undeniably true.
2) Prices for goods and services that utilize minimum wage employees will increase to compensate.
3) Goods and services that do not directly utilize minimum wage employees will see the increase in the goods and services that they do utilize. That is, every industry will eventually feel some impact, even if they do not directly employ minimum wage workers.
4) The entire cost of living will increase to absorb the cost differential.
5) The minimum wage employee will discover that, while he has more cash in his wallet, everything around him eventually becomes either more expensive or of lesser quality.
6) Eventually the economy will reach equilibrium and the minimum wage worker will be no better off than he was before the wage hike, since the cost of living increase will cancel out the pay raise.
7) The overall economy will, however, be worse off, since the local economy does not exist in a vacuum: it must compete with economies in other cities and states. This means that some industries will move away, harming the local economy. Further, automation that may have not made economic sense previously will suddenly become more viable, so some jobs will be lost forever (e.g. automated checkout at grocery stores).
Other economics interventions may either increase or decrease this effect, which makes it impossible to empirically measure this effect (like trying to judge side-effects of a particular medication in a person being overmedicated), but it’s basic economic theory: if the cost of manufacturing goes up, so does the price. Purchasing power, and therefore quality of life, decrease in proportion to the cost of living.
bak says
So wait, if paying higher wages is a boost to overall economic activity, always, without question, then let’s make the minimum wage $1000/hr! Everybody wins. People will have all that extra money to spend, and businesses will just have to adjust. Why not? What’s the downside? Can you articulate what the downside is? No? Ok, then let’s make it $10,000/ hr. Even better!
Icabod says
Doesn’t more money in circulation mean inflation?
““On an average basis, inflation in the first 12 months following an initial minimum-wage hike was 1.3 percentage points higher year-over-year. After two years, inflation was 2.5 percentage points higher. And when I look at just the years in which the minimum wage rose more than 20% – as is the case this time around – the inflation rate spiked sharply by the second year.” 3 – See more at: http://www.dailypfennig.com/2014/07/13/higher-minimum-wages-lead-inflation/#sthash.HJyp1w30.dpuf
Tamra says
Producing wealth by legal decree is a myth. There will be winners and there will be losers. And you can bet it’s not going to be the wealthy that will be the losers.
Recon5 says
Rents in Seattle are high because so much of it is considered prime real estate. That’s true of any city. It’s also why my family, making considerably *more than min wage, *don’t own or rent* in Seattle and don’t have any lake front property either. Making $15 hourly doesn’t make $1500 in rent “affordable”, genius. What it does do is put more people out of work or business and increase the costs you just gone done bitching about.
Robert Rosenbaum says
Mr. Foo – here’s a craigslist search of over 4000 listings under $1000/ month. You sir, are uninformed.
mrtapeguy says
You seem to think it’s not a zero-sum game, but actually it is. You are not creating more money to spend – you are taking money from what the employer spends on other things and rerouting it to employees, apparently based on the notion that the owners are always fat cats who always have extra profit they don’t need. If you actually do the math (as they do here) on this and other businesses, you’ll find that forcibly raising wages this high means less money for advertising, rent and other things that can’t appear out of thin air. Unless everyone in Seattle immediately (and I do mean IMMEDIATELY) turns around and spends enough to increase sales enough to make up the difference, the employer must either cut back something else or close.
Mars Attacks! says
At a certain point, wages devour the entire profit margin. At that point, the owners turn off the lights.
For those owners choosing to shutter their businesses, $15/hr appears to be that point.
Mars Attacks! says
If you increase wages without increasing productivity, all you achieve is inflation.
You could accomplish the same thing by moving the decimal point in the currency.
StotheOB says
You neither read the articles nor understand basic math very well. Here, we will do it for you quickly…
(And we will use the numbers you posted somewhere in the comments as if they are correct for this example – that is, we will say there are 30,000 restaurants)
First, because Washington already has a higher minimum wage than average, we find this fact in the Seattle Magazine article:
“Regarding amount of labor, at 14 employees, a Washington restaurant
already averages three fewer workers than the national restaurant
average (17 employees)”
The math on that tells us that in Average State X (“ASX” moving forward) with average minimum wage where you would find the same 30,000 restaurants, there would be 510,000 employees working in said restaurants. Meanwhile in Washington, there are just 420,000.
… Already Washington (420,000), with its higher minimum wage, has 90,000 fewer people employed than ASX (510,000)
Now again elsewhere you claim that you don’t care if your arbitrarily chosen 1,000 restaurants close down (which is likely way too low of a percentage, but whatever, we will still use it.) So merely 1,000 close in your mind, and that is another 14,000 people (average 14 employees times 1,000 restaurants) currently employed who will be losing their jobs.
… Washington (now 406,000) is up to 104,000 fewer people employed in restaurants than ASX (510,000)
Next we will address this line from the article you didn’t read or couldn’t comprehend:
“higher menu prices, cheaper, lower-quality ingredients, reduced opening times, and cutting work hours and firing workers,”
Here we will assume that, on average, another 2-3 employees are lost per business. An average of 2-3 employees losing their jobs spread over the 29,000 restaurants you think stay open means 58,000-87,000 current employees losing their jobs.
… Washington (now 319,000-348,000) is now at 162,000-191,000 fewer people employed in restaurants than ASX (510,000).
In a state with roughly 7 million people, having 162,000-191,000 fewer people working at restaurants than ASX, and assuming our rough estimates are not low (which they almost certainly are, especially regarding how many restaurants will close) already means a very significant increase in unemployment rates – – – and we only factored for restaurants!!! And we havent even touched on the fewer hours for those employees who do get to stay employed, which could be a significant amount with the restaurants being open fewer hours and/or days as the article says is happening.
Once accounted for across all businesses, you are looking at many hundreds of thousands of people who would not be working in Washington that would be working in more average states. These lost jobs will, of course, come at the expense of the lowest skilled and educated in the population (read; minorities and youth) – and those that are working will be paying even higher costs for all products and goods as businesses are forced to make up for the huge cost of employing people. (of course, online shopping means a lot of the higher costs in the area can be avoided if you have enough money to do so, so only the middle class and poor will truly surfer the full brunt of the huge cost increase.)
…Yeah, the “cost of living” you are so worried about will be going up drastically (and quality of living will go down, as the article explains with regards to food) as your employed population shirks significantly… (and you know what that means – higher taxes for all!)
As time goes on, small businesses will almost completely go away while the surviving large (or in your words, evil!) corporations will survive by switching to electronics to cheaply do what expensive workers would have done in the past. (ironically, the huge corporations will be the only ones who benefit as their costs will become lower with the replacing of people with machines) Unemployment rates will continue to rise as people are replaced with robots, which will of course mean taxes will have to rise even more to pay for the masses of unemployed. The massive costs of business in the state will mean fewer businesses moving to the area though, so the jobs wont be coming back. Eventually a “great white flight” will be seen, as has been seen in locations where unions drove up the cost of employees well past what the actual employees were worth. And they are always a “great white flight” because, as stated above, whites are generally the extreme majority people will will have had jobs, and therefore money, to actually move out of the decaying area.
As the article says, it is not a political issue – it is a math issue. The simple math says this plan is guaranteed to fail. And one need just look to the heavy union cities/states around the great lakes to see what happens when the cost of employees greatly outweighs actual employee value. Or shoot, just look internally – Washington already has 3 fewer employees per restaurant even before truly insane minimum wages are factored in.
That said, the complete failure on business side is simple math – but the reason it is being done is 100% political; and not in the way people think. They believe raising minimum wages in select areas will increase the population; especially of low education and skilled workers (read minorities.) Those minorities will be forced to end up on welfare (not enough jobs to employee them, and especially jobs that call for their abilities) which will increase their dependency, and in return, likelihood to vote for the people promising to “protect their benefits” and give them more free stuff. So in one simple move, they will have both increased their likelihood of holding onto power and increased the ease in which they are able to control the population. Power and population control are behind these pushes, not the economic concerns of absolutely anyone (well, other than the politicians and union heads who will become even richer themselves. But it goes without saying an area putting forth communist ideas will see only the ruling class benefit as everyone else becomes “equally” poor)
Miss Trixie says
Clearly, you’re a f*cking idiot.
borgcube says
Perhaps Mr. Foo should open a restaurant and show everyone how it’s done and lead the way? Nah, Mr. Foo just likes to tell other people how easy it is to run a business. Mr. Foo is probably an expert at punching a timeclock at best and that’s about the extent of his real-world captain of industry know-it-all attitude.
swdw says
OMG you are sooo funny. You think its the minimum wage people REGULARLY go to restaurants other than low priced ones?. And so we raise the minimum wage so they supposedly can go to a better restaurant. Only problem is, between the AFA and the wage increase they either no longer have a job or are working part time so their income either stays the same or is GONE. SO the whole theory of people having more money to spend just took a dump. It’s not just an individual having more money, it’s how much TOTAL expendable cash is available in an economy that determines it’s health. When people are fired or put on part time, the net increase overall is reduced or nullified, And please don’t bring up the 60’s. The world and US economy were totally different than they are today. We had a manufacturing based economy, not a service based one, and the rest of the world was just finally reaching the point where they’d recovered from the depredations of WWII to become competitive. The situations are NOT the same by any means.
Tired of the BS says
Nobody is worth $15 an hour for just showing up. $5 is fair plus the extra $10 for some kind if real performance. Then a bonus if you are worth it. If you are not willing to work for what the business offers, then shut up and work somewhere else.
Stephen Duplantis says
$15 an hour to wash dishes? Give me a break!
Ilpalazzo says
ACTUALLY Mr Fool, with the new mandated Health Insurance, the increase in pay with reduce their subsidy, so that extra $ will go DIRECTLY to the Health Insurance or Federal Health Insurance. NOWHERE ELSE, so it’s essentially gov’t robbing businesses.
mmercier0921 says
Nice of you to choose a fair wage for all those who lost their jobs.
Southernationalist says
There will be an exodus to just the other side of the county line. You will be amazed at what an economic stimulus this proves to be for neighboring localities.
Scot says
That’s exactly what some supporters of high minimum wages want: an exodus of THOSE people out of the community.
If those with low wages lose their jobs and those jobs go elsewhere, just what communities will be most affected?
Yep. Communities of color that the wealthy don’t want around.
Scot says
Suppose you’re correct and consumers increase their spending. That means less money for other things. So if your theory were true, it only means a reallocation of discretionary income from one group to another.
But there a problem with your theory. If it were true that consumers would simply absorb price increase, then restaurants would have already increased their prices beyond where they are now until demand declined. But prices are already set to maximize profits. Higher prices obviously mean less consumer demand and less business. Fewer customers means fewer restaurants in a market and ultimately higher unemployment.
What will consumers buy instead with the money they no longer spend for a restaurant experience? Their entertainment dollars will go elsewhere. Instead of a night out at a restaurant, they’ll rent a movie from Netflix or take a trip, options that direct money outside the community.
jj says
If it’s good for the economy for restaurants to pay higher wages to its labor, would it also be good for the economy for the business to pay higher prices for it’s raw food? What about it’s machinery used to cook the food? These are also industries that hire labor, and your emphasis on “the restaurants labor needs to be better paid” comes at the expense of labor in other industries. Why are the laborers of Seattle entitled to higher wages than those of farmers in Iowa, who sell their food to those restaurants. The problem is the higher cost of some inputs like labor, are weighed against the cost of other inputs like raw food. As the article says, “cheaper, lower-quality ingredients” will be a result of the wage hike. If the makers of higher quality ingredients want to compete with the lower quality producers, then they might have to cut labor costs as well. So the minimum wage hike in Seattle could have ripple effects throughout the labor market, not just seen in Seattle.
Fred Hahn says
You’re wrong! I manage a fast food restaurant, and those numbers are correct. Obamacare already forced employee hours to be cut, and any minimum wage over $8.50 to $9.00 any where will result in loss of jobs. Prices can only increase so much, so that means less employees will be scheduled to work. The few that manage to keep thier jobs will make more money, but many others will be forced to go on unemployment. Uneducated people and people who just don’t care about anything other then increasing minimum are the real problem!
Independent "Terrorist" says
Mr. Foo.. done much with business models? Slaves… nice code word. I’ve seen slavery.. and working minimum wage voluntarily isn’t one. Someone working minimum wage does have incentive to move on up to something else, as they prepare themselves.
BooFoo says
“Paying people a fair wage will only increase the amount of money people spend on things like going out to eat.” You’re assuming that businesses are willing/able to pay the increased wage. As this article shows, a lot of Seattle restaurants are being forced to close their doors because they can’t afford to pay the higher wages. How much more money will those restaurant employees be spending when they’re unemployed?
MolonLabeArti says
Since when was a waiter’s job ever considered a career? For decades they are transitional jobs for high school and college kids. The same goes for fast food chain (line worker) jobs. It is only in the twisted mind of a liberal, who believes they are worth more just because “they are”, that this mentality continues to exist. In a country with the worst labor participation rate in 40 years, the highest amount on disability, highest amount on food stamps (46 million), fools want a “living wage” for menial high school type jobs. Makes perfect sense!
fiftyeggs says
Seattle’s main exports are whining and bullshit, not necessarily in that order.
MolonLabeArti says
“Either way, a fair wage is not a liberal agenda”
But it is a left wing agenda fueled by the communist worker’s party. Do some easy research.
Alan says
And I lived in Seattle under the Reagan years. $450 a month rent and $900 a month minimal wage. It was doable because taxes were low, incentives were high, regulations were low, tipped personnel could be paid less than minimum and everyone of them I knew were making bank in tips. It is very common to get stiffed or get a less-than-10% tip these days thanks to idiots who think they should vote. I’m all for litmus testing landowning taxPAYers over 35 as the only eligible voters!
Johnny says
You realize that with increasing minimum wage that all other prices increase. That’s basic economics. That why minimum wage needs to have stayed where it was at and people need to get the motivation to get better jobs not just be bottom feeders for their whole life.
Shocked_and_Amazed8591 says
Hahaha
so don’t pay based on labor skill, pay everyone like they ARE skilled. Why not give everyone PHDs, they Make more ?
Joe Langella says
Mr Foo
I understand your position on this but disagree.
While what you say about the struggles of those receiving minimum wage is correct you leave out the point that supply and demand or better put organic wage increases are the only way to make things better.
When government forces someone to pay more that can’t be absorbed less jobs will occur and that just amplifiers the problem.
Just look at north Dakota as a perfect example
because there are a shortage of workers Mc Donalds is paying 22.00 a hour and they have a hard time filling those positions
So the answer should be let’s create more jobs by making it easier for people to start a business less tax and regulations will raise income for everyone and less expensive because government subsidize programs would be needed thus lower taxes so people could spend more in restaurants which in turn creates more demand for labor get it????
George Williams says
Sure. Don’t let the statistical proof get in the way or your preconceived notions.
BillyBob Bob says
We’ll see, Sis. But in the meanwhile, remember, “and you can keep your doctor!”
DVOnAZ says
Define “fair” Foo. $15/hr.? Why not $25/hr.? Then they’ll have even more money to “go out to eat.”. Hell, make it $50 under your circular logic!
R_of_the_H says
“our main export is not an item only the wealthy can afford, like american made cars”
How is life in a dumpster working out?
akjim99 says
You, Mr. Foo, are part of the problem. Call it anything you want, if costs go up businesses leave. If you can’t understand simple economics it’s time to go back to grade school. Here’s already proof in the pudding. And more expensive pudding at that.
xhare says
Breaking windows appears to be your preferred economic model.
Ben H says
Washington state is a big employer of foreign employees, guaranteed more money will instead be sent to the employee’s families abroad vs “on things like going out to eat.”
In the end, this actually benefits corporations and the greedy CEOs as it puts small business out of business and forces them to either work for them, Walmart, or starve.
Steve Gregg says
If you are unskilled labor, then the min wage is more than fair. If the min wage is $15, then unskilled laborers will never acquire the skills and experience to get one of those jobs. If you read the article above, restaurants who pay $15/hour will operate at a loss. When you operate at a loss, you go bankrupt. It’s that simple. Your idea that you can just give everyone a raise and everyone will be richer is loony lefty cartoon economics. Seattle is about to learn a painful lesson that such silliness does not work.
But, then, on the other hand, thank you very much for making Seattle the test case for proving the $15 min wage a city killer. The nation will learn a lot from your example.
Gratis Banks says
YOU AREN’T SUPPOSED TO PAY RENT WITH A JOB THAT PAY $9.52 AN HOUR! That wage is for HIGH SCHOOL KIDS and COLLEGE STUDENTS.
Edward Bustamante says
“Fair wage”..? Fair to whom? Certainly it will not be fair to those small business owners who lose their business over this idiocy. I must also ask why an idiot making minimum wage thinks he needs a $1500/ month apt when there are plenty for rent in the $600-$800 range. Even IF someone wanted to be “choosy” and live in a nicer neighborhood, you could pay the same in a decent spot anywhere from Everett to Auburn!
j95lee says
Increased wage for an employee means increased cost of labor for the employer. If the national minimum wage became 15 dollars tomorrow, then your cost of living will shoot up, or more people will work less, because everyone on the business side has to find ways to recoup the hike in labor costs. In other words, inflation.
You’ll often hear someone reply “then why not raise the min wage to 100 dollars an hour, so everyone can have even more money to spend”. If you dismiss that as too outlandish, then you understand the basic principles behind why raise in min wage can be problematic. We’re not taking about a 50 cent raise here.
I go to mom and pop eateries to get authentic Asian food, and those places operate on razor thin margins. That’s where you see Mexicans work the kitchen for cash under the table. Min wage goes up 15, and maybe those guys demand raises. Game over.
Jack Buckmeir says
BULLSHIT.
shd1963 says
This is the most stupid thing a grown adult can think. Obviously, Foo is a socialist who has never owned a business and has no clue about what it takes to run a business. Foo needs to get his head out of the socialist koolaid and try starting a business himself. Then he would be singing a different tune.
Katsstud says
You are sadly more than a little ignorant.
Bradley Whaley says
I own a restaurant and moved here from Detroit. Before you decide to engage in another poorly thought out rant again, you should definitely have a working knowledge on the topic. I will raise my prices accordingly or close as well. Btw, the numbers quoted in this article are accurate.
Noah Teeter says
Dude you do know that when minimum wage spikes, everything will cost more wether the general populus likes it or not. I dont live in seattle but i live in kent. Just say a gallon of milk is $3 currently, with the minimum wage increase that $3 is now $5 or $6. This also makes the people who went to college for a better paying job less relevent because the companys, say at a hospital will not get a pay increase because minimum wage went up. No they would be getting a pay cut, just from the increase. Learn how economics work before getting bent out of shape
it sucks that people are in poverty but, it is their own fault.
heltonja says
1. It is not the resturant owner’s responsibility to pay the mortgage or inflated Obamacare premiums for some unskilled sap. If you want a job that pays enough to support a family, then it is your responsibility to make yourself more marketable. Businesses are not charities.
2. Everyone negotiates his or her salary. Even by applying to bus tables, you have presumably applied for the highest paying job your skill set would support.
3. With the left every business owner down to the guy who runs a hotdog stand is a monopoly man fat cat lighting cigars with 100 dollar bills. In reality, many just get buy or fail within the first year. So double labor costs and see how many go under or never start
Brian says
Wow $15 a hr is horse crap to pay a server. Here’s an idea, claim the tips you get like the law says you should and all will see you make much more then $15/ hr.
Gregory S. Gill says
What’s a fair wage? Employers are not people’s food ticket, they are to pay you for the work you do as agreed upon by both parties. Employers are not there to make sure you have a certain standard of living, and to be paying for it. If someone want more money then let them better themselves. Its better to be employed for $5 an hour than to be unemployed for $15 an hour. Besides having a job makes you more marketable than having none at all.
Trudy Bateman says
$1500 for rent? Are you questioning that? There is no place cheaper? Why not a roommate? No other jobs in Seattle that pay $10-$20 an hour. You are already seeing resturants.closing. they already work on small margins. You asked for it, you got it. Learn to cook because you will have less choices and more unemployment.
Tony Viscardi says
Want a good living wage, work harder then those around you, work when asked, come in when called and you will EARN good pay. Works everytime. It’s not the Governments job to dictate what a buisness pays it’s employees. If pay is to low, people won’t work there. If your a mature adult making minimum wage, LOOK IN THE MIRROR!!
Sailsalot says
What a load of liberal tripe. “Paying people a fair wage will only increase the amount of money people spend on things like going out to eat.” People will spend more to go out and eat, but fewer people will go out to eat and they will do so less frequently. Business does not run according to liberal ideals.
Ashley Frahm says
Working in jobs like fast food and as cart pushers is not a job intended for people live on or raise a family. Those jobs are for kids getting their first jobs. To have some spending money. People working those jobs should not make more money than our active military service men and women.
Robert says
You’re a moron. Raising the wage only makes the cost of goods to go up. And when the costs of goods & services goes up, then something as simple as dining out becomes an elitist activity. The common people will not be able to afford it. It will require a different budget just to afford to eat at home. If you want to make more money – I’m not AT ALL against that – but LEARN A SKILL or a TRADE or go to school and become more than a skill-less worker that does the same job a high school dropout could do blindfolded with their hands tied behind their back. Stop dummying down the rest of society because of your laziness. America is the land of opportunity not the land of the guaranteed. You’re not ENTITLED to anything. But you can work to earn it.
cheffy tv says
people cant spend when restaurants cant afford to stay open. no restauirant no jobs no people….. your an idiot
Walt Okoney says
Minimum wage was actually put in place as a Starting point for our Youth….it was a “Minimum wage” for kids in High school living at Home Paying no Bills…more or less to take the Burden off of the Parents and teach the Kids some Responsibility. ..minimum wage was not to Live on Or Support a Family. …it was a Starting point for youth…..
Fantastic4Four says
The fair wage is a Liberal BS talking point period. 1. what is a “fair wage” please give an exact figure so we know how to respond? Just don’t throw out a talking point with no basis facts or figures to discuss. 2. Why is the rent to high in Seattle? 3. Many of the food service industry jobs were for part-time and kids to learn skills after/before school for spending money. Who really thinks or wants a career making French fries. 4. The Liberals love making their power hungry elite friends tons of money keeping the stupid mis-informed. 5. If you really want to place BLAME look in the mirror for you casted the vote for your feelings at the expense of every American, because nothing is free and the money and spending must come from somewhere. You know very little about me and how I help the poor or needy yet because I refuse to ALLOW a corrupt politician waste away the fruits of my labor you call me/us uncaring. Why is giving up my hard earned labor to some FAT bottomed bureaucrats wages, work building, work supplies, vacations, sick pay and the generous pensions they elected themselves with my/our money? The truth is that government pisses away the majority of what it collects to help “the poor”, “the banks’, and any other pet favor they do. Government sucks up the lions share yet tell you that we need more money because GUESS WHAT we have more poor now??? If government would stop making the dollar WORTHLESS many more opportunities would arise and those that refused to get an education could sustain themselves and then we could use those valuable resources to those that truly need them ELDERLY, VETERANS, DISABLED and others. What I hate is that my tax dollars are wasted on my Cholo neighbors who get to eat better than me party all night, fancy jordans, smoke weed all day, not go to school and not ever have to worry about rent. What’s the “fair wage” I get to keep of what I wake up everyday for to bust my hump? I have a family to feed as well and to provide a roof over their head, tell me what’s fair?
MaryT says
If your raise goes up to $15, then prices for the hamburger will go up, and now you can take that extra dollar you earned to pay for that more expensive burger, so that they can pay other employees that extra dollar an hour. YOu dont get it! By the way, Jesus Christ is the answer for the world today!
Joseph Gispert says
“Increasing wages means more $ for people to spend?” The reality of the statement is “the more wages are increased, the more things will cost, then in reality world, the wage increase was nothing more than a smoke screen and changes nothing” …
boyd2 says
If the economy operates in a manner by which every time you pay people more that generates even more sales (wealth) which I assume pays even more people more money meaning they can now spend even more … ad infinitum, why would we stop at $15 an hour? Lets go with a $100 an hour and make us all rich. And … do you have some sort of definition of what would constitute a “fair” wage? By what process would you determine a fair wage? Who would ultimately decide what constitutes fair? Did I miss where everyone quit learning anything in school?
Duane Chamberlain says
research is wrong but your right? gimme a break you have no idea.
jgpaynejr says
What’s “fair?” Who gets to decide? If $15 is fair, is $25 “fairer.” In our economy, we pay people what they contribute and what their skills are worth. Not some arbitrary scale of “fairness.”
The___Don says
you’re an idiot – and no doubt a democrat. But then I repeat myself. Maybe you ought to take an economics class, birdbrain. This is why I will no longer go into Seattle for any food or entertainment. Paying a high school dropout flipping burgers $15.00 an hour is a travesty when you compare it to what we pay our low ranking military.
DILIGAF says
Sounds to me like before long only the wealthy will be able to afford to dine out in Seattle.
Oliver says
Mr. Foo’s defense of the minimum raise increase has a hidden presupposition i.e. employees working in minimum wage capacities do so to support themselves and/or family members. This is false. How many employees intend to make a career out of their minimum wage jobs? Or are actually supporting themselves and/or family members? Minimum wage jobs provide young, high school and college age students and others with valuable work experiences/skills (responsibility and dependability) while they study to move into jobs/careers that pay more for even greater responsibilities and a more advanced skill set. It’s a shame so many businesses are closing their doors because they can’t afford to pay their workers. Fewer jobs, fewer restaurants….
Dallas says
Those people don’t live in $1500 per month apartments.
highlanderjuan says
Mr. Foo – you’re solving the wrong problem. The problem is government controls, not freedom. But you probably already know that, eh?
Fish says
Businesses with less than 500 employees have 7 years to bring it in. I agree with Mr Foo…Oh Horseshit… read… http://murray.seattle.gov/minimumwage/#sthash.sc3NX9vr.dpbs Give your head a shake, it’s time that Walmart, McDonalds et al started paying above poverty wages to save the feds annually billions in welfare dollars. Walmart alone costs you $7.4 billion a year! We the tax payers should not be subsidizing these greedy bastards. Ever wonder why service is so bad in Walmrt? Why the stores are dirty? How good a job would you do for $7.25 an hour? When you know that the 8 Waltons make more a year than 30% of the total population…that’s just wrong! Imagine if there was no minimum wage, what would they pay?
Chris Don Tremaine says
Except the pro minimum wage increase people are forcing prices to rise to the point the workers are in a worse situation. The store or restaurant will loose money if they don’t raise the prices. This makes the minimum wage earners to actually loose spending power. I have seen this first hand several times during my life. My first brand new car cost me $47 per month. I made $3 per hour when I bought my first house for $20K. Under Carter, we had double digit inflation and housing was rising so fast that a lot of people lost the dream of owning their home.
Don.
Mark Kittering says
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Greg Stewart says
I am sure that you have thought of this, so I need to ask…
1) How do you suggest we pay kids that are just learning their first job? They are not supporting a family, and they will be making a whole bunch of mistakes as they gain very important experience. How do we keep employers from skipping over these “first rung” employees, when it won’;t make any economic sense to hire them?
2) How do you suggest we pay jobs that are usually filled by the elderly that are just looking to supplement their income? I suspect that you believe a greeter at a retail store is worth $30,000 per year plus about $18,000 in medical and employer’s part of social security, but in fact, most employers will simply cut the position.
3) How do you guess businesses that rely on part time help and low skill help will remain competitive with businesses that do not have to pay that wage? If you are thinking, that the new wage might make some people learn to do more with less workers, or invest in machinery to replace labor, congratulations! You just took employment away from a whole bunch of people who will find it harder to get new work.
In the real world, we cannot sit around the campfire, singing Kumbaya and just assume everything will work out.
hoya says
Your blinding hatred and indoctrination prevents you from thinking-.
You can no more change the laws of the economics than you can the laws of physics…laws of gravity….
How many businesses did you run to even remotely understand how it works….
I bet the one- pulling buggers and putting them in your mouth…..
Michael Griffith says
Great news Mr. Foo, now is your chance to open a restaurant is Seattle!
C’mon, show all those Right-Wingers who are closing up how it’s done!!! (most Seattle restaurants are run by Right-wingers, aren’t they?)
greghalv says
^ Folks, this is the problem. ^
john says
So your telling me that fast food employees should make just as much as a construction laborer??? Fast food jobs are and should still be for kids and that’s that. Liberal or conservative its bs! If you choose to not go to school or get out of the restaurant business then the wage shouldn’t be raised.
M.-J. Taylor says
Exactly. Unfortunately, most people don’t understand economics. The Fat Cats hoard dollars and it doesn’t trickle down or help the economy in any way. Pay workers a living wage and you lighten the tax burden on everyone and stimulate the economy in one move!
Doug415 says
Mr. Foo — WAAAHHHH!!
Clayton Levi Berry says
right, because the price of food and services never goes up
Carol Bodine says
You don’t own a business do you Mr Foo??
It is going to hurt everyone.
1st MAW says
The result will be that everyone will raise their prices to adjust for higher cost and then the burger flippers will be back in the same boat. You don’t have to believe me or anyone else, just sit back and watch.
Jefferson Paine says
Mr. Foo, if $15 / hour “will only increase the amount of money people spend on things…”, then why not make min-wage $25 or $50 per hr and increase the money spent on those things hella *more*?
You cite rent costs so by your logic why not just pass a “Fair Rent” law requiring rents be no more than $750 per month? Or better yet, maybe no more than 25% of one’s take home welfare or pay?
Using your logic, we can make *everyone* at least upper middle-class and just imagine how much that will “increase the amount of money people spend on things”…
Question: If $9.52 makes people slaves, then what does $15 make them? Serfs? What exactly is the dollar amount where one becomes a “slave”?
Rick Richman says
The main export in the future for Seattle will be part-time laborers. I hear a lot of narrative from you but nothing with any real facts. Typical liberal, it’s true if I say it…..
john says
Foo, never had to meet a payroll, have you.
Never had to live or die by a P&L statement, never had to face the numerous taxes small buisness has to pay. Do you have any idea whatnot burden is.
fight4liberty says
Average rent 1500, but that doesn’t mean that you can’t find rent that is half that amount. There are studios and 1 bedrooms for roughly $600 per month. Which leaves 1/2 of your paycheck for the other things. Does it mean you have to be thrifty, yes. I was in my 30s before I ever bought a new car and even then it wasn’t a top-of-the-line model. You used to be able to buy a low cost health plan that provided coverage for catastrophes and emergencies, unfortunately not anymore. That said, even under the current system if you are making only $1500 a month you will probably get free health insurance. If you are a two income family, then the percentage of that income going to basic necessities is even smaller. So if you and a spouse are making a combined 3000 a month, and spend a modest 7-900 on rent, you have over two grand for everything else. Things change when you use something other than averages which includes condo’s in Bellevue, don’t they?
Hmmm, Seattle’s main export? Aircraft, now that is something everybody can afford. The difference between the two cities is Seattle’s economy is built largely on white collar workers who aren’t all that interested in a handout, that is changing with the mindset of $15 plus an hour for unskilled work. These were formerly entry level jobs held by college and high school students or families looking for a little extra income.
J R says
Mr Foo……….you are right about them having more money to spend…….BUT what they buy with their money will cost them more. Net result: NO GAIN. In 1956 a man earning $100 bucks a week could support his family. How is that? A hint: PRICES were in line with average wages. The only ones who rise above average are lucky, inherit it or (Heaven forbid) WORK FOR IT. Government cannot legislate prosperity. There will always be rich, middle and lower. All government meddling will ever do is push more from the middle to the lower. The “war on poverty” is a complete failure. We have more below the poverty line now than we did when that “grand plan” was introduced. Read up on it. Lyndon Johnson and his cronies had only one goal………securing votes. He is even quoted as saying “I’ll have those N*****S voting Democratic for the next hundred years.” I’ll repeat: GOVERNMENT CANNOT LEGISLATE PROSPERITY.
Shamell says
Had minimum wage been increasing, ALL THESE YEARS, along w/ the COST OF LIVING increase, it’d be MORE than 15 measly dollars!!!
Rush says
Average rent in Alaska is around 1200 a month and we have the normal minimum wage. Just like a mechanic usually doesn’t do work on his own rig because that’s his job people that work food industry don’t wanna go out to eat. Seattle is going to get a rude awakening in the next year or two
wayne8734 says
Mr.Foo,it should be Mr.Fool. You make this ludicrous comment yet there it is in plain black and white,the article states that many businesses are closing down while the others are raising their prices.This was predicted to happen but no,the liberals said this would never happen.You need to get your head out of your ass and read the article,it is happening,happening right now!!!!!
Geronimo says
When cost goes up prices go up. If a resource (employees) that you business uses goes up then price of goods or service that the business provides goes up. That is why through out history those who earn minimum wage live a minimum quantity of life. Regardless if the minimum wage is $1 or $50 dollars those who decide to settle for minimum wage are settling for a low quality life.
A-A-ron says
Yeah, vehicles and beer are luxuries, not necessities. Am I mistaken or did you say only wealthy people can afford American made cars as well? US cars are some of the cheapest on the market, along with some of the best warranties as well meaning more bang for your buck. Next, raising to wage to an unsustainable level, I.e. $15 an hour, does force many business’ to close simply because the profit margin isn’t there. So if by paying people higher wage, you say that there will be more money to spend on the economy, but if the economy can’t afford to pay that higher min wage, and forces businesses to close then I’d say you feeble minded plan of an astronomical min wage was a kick in the pants.
some guy says
What good is a $15 an hour job if the places that pay that are closing. Look to Detroit people. Someone said this is not a political problem but a math problem. How do you run your own home. If something becomes to expensive, what do you do? Small businesses don’t run on huge profit margins. I hope seattle likes wal-mart bc thats what you are going to be left with. Enjoy your downtown dieing and people leaving, trailer parks, crime and drugs. New Detroit.
vegas1970 says
You correctly point out that the majority of people’s income goes towards rent. That is because there is a scarcity of supply of housing. As wages increase to $15/hr, housing will simply absorb that increase, and there will still be not enough money for he health care, food, a car, going out, etc…
Increasing money supply to fix a low cost housing supply shortage problem will not work.
There is not a country in the world with a minimum wage that allows a minimum wage worker with a family of 4 to be living above the poverty line. This is because of a supply problem.
Marc Antonio Leon says
Did you read the article? An owner profits 28k a year from $700,000 in sales. Assuming a 40 hour work week, that would be $13.46 per hour. The owner also doesn’t get any tips.
D_Poe says
I worked as a cook in a restaurant in Belltown making 13 an hour before I left to move into Oregon just 6 months ago. I was a kitchen lead looking at a promotion to sous chef. I would have been making about 15 an hour if I stayed. A friend of mine works in a hotel as a sous chef making 20 an hour. The wage going up over the next couple of years will not effect restaurants much. People in Seattle love to go out to eat. Servers hours may be cut back but people in Seattle also know how to tip for the part. Aree the people commenting suggesting cooking is not a skill? It is a skill. Just because your spouse and kids like your cooking doesn’t mean you have what it takes to cook for 250 people who all want different things temped to order. One thing none of these people are considering is that most people in Seattle make close to 15 already and by 2017 that would have been the going wage anyways. So they really don’t need the minimum wage to go up. If your employer is paying the ridiculous minimum wage now in Seattle than you better be in high school otherwise your employer doesn’t care about you and you should quit because even janitors in Seattle start at 12
Bill Gaw says
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/09/14/15-now-seatac/
KM says
Don’t bring Detroit into this! Detroit’s back on the rise and will no longer qualify as everyone’s dummy example of a crisis city. One day some city will be GLAD to be called “The Detroit of the [fill in your coordinates]”.
Edward Shiggian says
It won’t because the Northwest is 100000000X better than the midwest.
TestSalad says
Weird how it’s one of the fastest growing cities in America. 1st fastest is the liberal oasis in Texas: Austin.
Joseph Gispert says
I agree … as we march down this progressive / liberal / socialist road in Seattle (as well as WA State) things will only get worse … Re/ the replies that “increasing wages means more $ for people to spend” the reality of the statement is “the more wages are increased, the more things will cost, then in reality world, the wage increase was nothing more than a smoke screen and changes nothing” … As socialist programs run amuck, Seattle will break down, everyone with any means will move out of the Seattle City Limits, Then one morning Seattle wakes up, and begins the process of filing for bankruptcy (just as Detroit City had to) …
James Hare says
I hope you enjoy eating crow.
Ronald Barbour says
Brigadier said:
“Seattle will be renamed Detroit West in 8-10 years, and kshama sawant will be yelling at people as they leave town that they are capitalist pigs.”
Right you are! The WORST cities in the USA have one thing in common – all are ruled by the Democrat Party.
MeanieHead says
Nah. She’ll be on to the next state for the next rally so she can fill her pockets. She’s looking to go national, baby. She wants Obama’s spot.
SickandTired says
In a number of states they allow full serve restaurants to pay a reduced hourly wage, due to tip income. AssClowns like Nick Hanauer are getting what they want!! He can kiss those small business owner’s butts as they leave town!!
Fleagus Gustafario says
It’s horrible that tipped workers get paid less than the minimum wage. In Washington they get paid the same as anyone else plus tips. We have lots of restaurants here. Literally it’s like the economy is half restaurants, so many here…obviously they can pay that amount. There is actually fewer restaurants in states where the workers make starvation wages.
I’m amazed at how many people like you there are, that are happy with people worked raw to the bone for pennies on the dollar. It’s all about what the owners want right?
kyleyoder says
It’s amazing people like you can continue to champion policies to “help” the “poor overworked proletariat” as if it’s EVER worked in history where ever it’s been tried. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, a saying coined because of people like you.
Fleagus Gustafario says
Hell isn’t real. We either create heaven or hell on Earth by the actions we take. Helping people has always worked before…It’s when people need help and we say “fuck you” that always causes the problems for people.
All I can say is that minimum wage rising has not caused the sky to fall and I am a small business owner that helps others with work at fair pay. I don’t see what the big deal is or why I have to be a greedy scumfuck to get any kind of approval. It’s like if you’re mean to people ” you had to do it” but when you’re nice, it’s that “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” as if that’s always the case. Screw that.
Butch says
Tensor it’s not hard to figure you out, you probably live in your parents house, have a medical pot card and work at Subway, if you do indeed work. Minimum wage is not a career job, these jobs are for kids to learn the value of working, buying their first car, paying for gas and insurance. Liberals keep taking things like this away from the education of teaching responsibility to our children if you choose to be a lifetime burger flipper for minimum wage, you can kiosk your lazy ass goodbye
tensor says
Minimum wage is not a career job, these jobs are for kids to learn the value of working, buying their first car, paying for gas and insurance.
Who ever said a minimum wage job was for a “career”? Oh yeah, the aforementioned Anton, of the Washington Restaurant Association:
“These are skills carried onto sales, onto management. They are lifetime skills,” Anton said. “We really want to get back to offering their kids their first job.”
Remember, he said that in a (failed) attempt to chisel wages from teenagers:
SB 5422 would allow businesses to pay anyone under the age of 20 the federal minimum wage, which is currently $7.25, as opposed to the minimum wage in Washington State of $9.47.
The only persons who ever say this are opponents of the minimum wage. I guess this is to teach teenagers the “value” of lower wages?
Liberals keep taking things like this away from the education of teaching responsibility to our children if you choose to be a lifetime burger flipper for minimum wage,
Is it easier to work your way through engineering school at $7.25/hour, or $15/hour?
MaynardGKrebbs says
Is it better for inner city school kids to learn the value of hard work,showing up on time and knw if you stay in school and increase your job skills you can escape poverty ? Or as small businesses paying minimum wage for entry level jobs leave,that more social programs will be needed so one can have food on the table?
John Van Stry says
Yes, why in the world would we want to lower the wages for unskilled labor, so that places would considering hiring untrained unskilled workers to work? Why the very idea of hiring someone you would never consider at a higher price, and paying them money so they learn to work is just bizarre!!
You have obviously NEVER RAISED A CHILD IN YOUR LIFE. Getting them their first job is one of the hardest things you can ever do, but once they learn responsibility and earning money for themselves, their whole attitude about a good many things change. Before you know it, they’re making bank and buying a house.
But getting them that first unskilled job can only happen if the employer is willing, and at 15 an hour, NO ONE will be willing.
tensor says
… and at 15 an hour, NO ONE will be willing.
Yeah, $15/hour has just been killing jobs in Seatac:
City manager Todd Cutts says there has been no impact on sales tax or property tax, and no measurable change in the number of business licenses issued.
The law requires hoteliers with more than 100 rooms to pay workers $15 an hour. Scott Ostrander, former general manager of the Cedarbrook Lodge in SeaTac, argued during the campaign that he would close several rooms in his hotel to avoid having to comply. Now, Cedarbrook Lodge is moving forward with a 63-room expansion and recently started paying the $15 per hour minimum wage.
WallyPark says it’s had “the best year ever” and it’s very supportive of the minimum wage ordinance.
Mitchell Wilson says
Tensor. It is obvious that you have no education in finance or business. As you increase wages, you increase costs and that is why people are finding it harder to live. If you want to fix the problem, then you need to lower the upper wages of those union workers to bring prices down! In other words, lower the cost of living itself!
tensor says
If you want to fix the problem, then you need to lower the upper wages of those union workers to bring prices down! In other words, lower the cost of living itself!
As Roger Rabbit sagely noted, the conservative response to every “problem” starts with cutting someone else’s wages. Have you ever noticed how those arguments never get applied to a CEO, even one whose “leadership” has gutted the net worth of his company?
Meanwhile, here’s a little puzzle for you to solve, on the relationship between higher wages and economic performance. I wish you better luck than anyone else here so far, as they have all failed to solve it:
When Washington residents voted in 1998 to raise the state’s minimum wage and link it to the cost of living, opponents warned the measure would be a job-killer. The prediction hasn’t been borne out.
In the 15 years that followed, the state’s minimum wage climbed to $9.32 — the highest in the country. Meanwhile job growth continued at an average 0.8 percent annual pace, 0.3 percentage point above the national rate. Payrolls at Washington’s restaurants and bars, portrayed as particularly vulnerable to higher wage costs, expanded by 21 percent. Poverty has trailed the U.S. level for at least seven years.
Mitchell Wilson says
Like I said, you do not understand business. Those who invest into and own a business, have the rights to earn the most and that is because, they stand to lose the most!
Matt Hicklin says
and they are going to if they dont start paying their workers more, i do feel bad for some small business owners who cant cut it, but its time to close the gap between the have more than they will ever needs, and the have less than they can survive ons
ThewlynOh says
“it’s time to close the gap between those who have more than they will ever need and those that have less than they can survive on”
a) so, you’re in favor of screwing over someone who’s worked his/her entire life to build a business to success, gave up family and friend time to pursue a dream, who might finally be making “a lot” and FORCING them to take their hard earned profits (well deserved through blood sweat & tears) and give it to some unskilled worker because it makes you “feel good”? that’s the problem with you libs, you’re always trying to screw the successful to give to the lazy…in your socialist world, someone always has to work harder to give to someone who won’t work hard at all – this is what you believe is “fair”?
b) learn to spell and use proper grammar – it’s the difference between knowing your shit and knowing you’re shit
azygos says
Let me simplify it for you Tensor:
From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
Dagney says
Oh puke. Quoting the Morelly and Marx won’t earn you a single point in a debate on economics. Go wash your Che T-shirt now, it’s starting to smell.
Bryce says
Never met a single owner that works harder then front-end employees.
Chris says
You never met me, then.
ThewlynOh says
i don’t know what “owners” you know, but methinks you need to get out more…
j says
Why are the low wage workers the lazy ? Where do you get that insulting idea from? Blue collar workers work just as hard or harder than white collars.
BrianG says
So what you’re saying is, It’s not fair for someone who works their ass off to make make more than someone that doesn’t? If we take away capitalism, where is the motivation to do ANYTHING well? Why would ANYBODY start a business knowing they will have to give away all their profit to undeserving whiney moochers? The undeserving moochers are ruining it all of us that work our asses off to EARN a higher wage. Those jobs are supposed to be stepping stones to higher wages. Why strive and work my fingers to the bone to get more money from a higher paying job when i can work fastfood and do just as well? They are taking away our incentive to do a great job. “Why should i work so hard to have nothing when dipshit does nothing and gets the same benefit i do?”
gio33 says
The problem is still capitalism because they need to run them at a profit. Its okay if they close: Just let the workers run them, and cut out the middle man, capitalist owner. If he can’t stay in business and pay a living wage, then he should not be in business. The workers can run the whole business and make ends meet. That is what they did in Argentina, when capitalist factories closed down because they could not make enough money to operate. Well the workers just took it over, gave everyone equal pay, and no only were they serving the public again but they had their jobs back–and as the business grew so did their paychecks. The capitalist boss said he could not do it, and he was right. I suspect if these restaurants let workers take over, they would be able to run it, and I wonder how many of them are choosing to shut down out of protest for having to pay?
Cheri says
The workers don’t take anything over, the government does and it’s called communism.
Cheri says
If people don’t like the American way why don’t they move to Argentina then or Europe. Just wanted to throw that in. I love when people bash capitalism but live in America to benefit from it. Does the name George Soros ring a bell? How bout Tom Steyer? All these progressives who promote socialism but who’ve made fortunes in America. They should be the first in line to redistribute their wealth.
gio33 says
I disagree. If people don’t like something they should not run away, they should struggle to change it. That is the engine of historical progress. And, lets not confuse the ruling class and their ruling ideas with everyone else. The old anti-communist slander, about communism being “foreign,” not really “American,’ part of the myth of “American exceptionalism.’ But this has always been a lie. It’s easily refuted, by just looking at American history, a history that is full of class struggle, with an active role of many American Communists, who have worked hard and fought to secure many hard won rights, and expand them beyond the scopes of what is possible under this de-humanizing system.
There is a recent book by Professor ROBIN KELLEY (professor of American studies and history at the University of Southern California, and the Harmsworth Professor of American History at Oxford): “Hammer and Hoe: Alabama Communists During the Great Depression.” It documents how the Communist Party worked to secure racial, economic and political justice, who says, “the infrastructure that was laid forward becomes the Civil Rights Movement in Alabama, was laid in many ways, not entirely, by the Communist Party.” You can hear an interview at NPR radio here: “How ‘Communism’ Brought Racial Equality To The Sout hhttp://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123771194
Lets not forget May Day, International Workers Day was started in the United States, in Chicago? A Haymarket Massacre when Chicago police fired on workers during a general strike for the eight hour day, killing several people. This led to international demonstrations on the anniversary of the Chicago protests. Would you say the legal establishment of the 8-hour day, the weekend, and other labor rights, which were class demands of the proletariat, are something you prefer to do without? But it was part of the American system! Those workers should have just left and gone elsewhere, right? No.
And do wish to erase from history Eugene Victor Debs, an American union leader, one of the founding members of the International Labor Union and the Industrial Workers of the World (IWW), as well as candidate for President of the United States (5 times)..Imprisioned during the First Red Scare for speaking against US involvement in World War I… While in prison, in protest of his jailing, Charles Ruthenberg led a parade of unionists, socialists, anarchists and communists to march on May 1 (May Day) 1919, which broke into the violent May Day Riots of 1919. Debs ran for president in the 1920 election while in prison in the Atlanta Federal Penitentiary and still received 913,664 write-in votes, but more than twice that before. When Debs was released the other prisoners sent him off with “a roar of cheers” and a crowd of 50,000 greeted his return. http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F40812F7345E1B7A93C3AB178BD95F428285F9 In 1924, Debs was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize by the Finnish Socialist Karl H. Wiik on the grounds that “Debs started to work actively for peace during World War I, mainly because he considered the war to be in the interest of capitalism.” http://nobelprize.org/nomination/peace/nomination.php?action=show&showid=1347
Upton Sinclair was also involved in electoral politics and interestingly remarked in 1951: “The American People will take Socialism, but they won’t take the label. I certainly proved it in the case of EPIC. Running on the Socialist ticket I got 60,000 votes, and running on the slogan to ‘End Poverty in California’ I got 879,000. I think we simply have to recognize the fact that our enemies have succeeded in spreading the Big Lie.”
So, don’t be fooled by the Big Lie, because saying the struggle for a just society by communists and other progressives people is a very big part of the American experience. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. And we will win what Marx called the “battle for democracy.”
dude1394 says
Isn’t it special. I am sure the above poster gets on the phone and selects the most expensive service they can find. What a hypocrite.
Ernest says
That’s not how it works. Those who invest and own a business expect a higher return, and you do that by not paying the value of the work put in, because then there would be no profit. They don’t make the most because they stand to lose the most. That’s just silly.
Frank A says
Ernest, buy yourself a business or start one up and see just how “silly” it is. Otherwise, you have NO clue what you’re talking about.
Yitzhak says
You live in a fantasy world Tensor. What people don’t realize is that people who have been a job for awhile making, let’s say, 11.00 dollars an hour will probably need to be raised or the business will lose experienced employees. Why would you stay on where you were making 11.00 dollars an hour and someone else comes in and “starts” and 15.00. So, they raise them to 15.00 making the same as a new employee who has been there a week? I don’t think so. Say what you want, but it will affect prices, benefits, closings and hours for employees. If you don’t believe it, then you are either very naive or blind or just plain stupid.
tensor says
Say what you want, but it will affect prices, benefits, closings and hours for employees. If you don’t believe it, then you are either very naive or blind or just plain stupid.
I’m saying what actually happened. The real performance of Washington state’s real economy, over the fifteen-plus years of raising Washington state’s real minimum wage, matters more to real people than any of your hypothetical doodling.
Raising the minimum wage could lift hundreds of thousands of low-wage workers out of poverty, but it’s also a job killer. Right?
Not so fast. In Washington state, small businesses are adding jobs faster than any other state in the country, according to a report from Paychex and IHS. It’s also the state where minimum wage, at $9.32 per hour, is the highest.
How about you spend less time telling me about how your theory just has to be correct, despite all of the evidence, and instead create a theory which matches reality? You’d have to explain how our high minimum wage exists with our low rate of unemployment, our low rate of poverty, and our excellent climate for small business, but since you feel yourself qualified to lecture the rest of us on economics, what’s stopping you?
Alex McDougall says
“the relationship between higher wages and economic performance”: Yes, if higher wages reflect growing productivity. If higher wages are the result of a price floor – then no. Your Washington example doesn’t tell us much: First, it’s possible that the minimum wage of 9.03 was not binding, or was not binding for very many employers. $15 is almost certainly binding for many. Second, we don’t know what the employment level in Washington would be in its absence. You have no natural comparison or counterfactual with which to base that statement. It could be that the min. wage slowed down employment growth. Third, we don’t know ‘how’ employers responded – as has been mentioned – reducing quantity demanded of labour is one possible response, but not the only one (others include reductions in job quality). There is no real reason to to think that labour doesn’t work just like every other good in the economy, which is that when the price goes up, the quantity demanded goes down. The min. wage is a terrible, inefficient, and unfair way to help poor people.
tensor says
First, it’s possible that the minimum wage of 9.03 was not binding, or was not binding for very many employers. $15 is almost certainly binding for many.
Citations?
Second, we don’t know what the employment level in Washington would be in its absence. You have no natural comparison or counterfactual with which to base that statement.
We can only speculate on what might have happened here, but that does not prevent us from considering what happened in the rest of our country:
Minimum Wage In Washington: After 16 Years, State With Highest Minimum Wage Maintains Lower Unemployment Than National, Regional Averages.
[…]
After 16 years of having one of the country’s most progressive minimum wage policies, Washington’s unemployment rate has been below the national average for four of the past five years, and well below the two [Western and Southern] regions.
Care to speculate on how Washington’s economy looks, compared to places like Mississippi? Nope, didn’t think so.
The min. wage is a terrible, inefficient, and unfair way to help poor people.
Facts, how do they work?
Alex McDougall says
“We can only speculate on what might have happened here, but that does not prevent us from considering what happened in the rest of our country:”
Once again – employment rates are affected by many factors, in order to determine causality you need a counterfactual. So, “the rest of the country” is a terrible counterfactual because economic conditions vary widely. There is no reason at all to believe that, absent this policy intervention, the economic conditions of Washington would have followed “the rest of the country”. Second, there is huge problem of reverse causality – states don’t ‘randomly’ institute policies – they do so in response to economic conditions: Eg. Luxomburg has a very high min. wage and a really high per capita income. Which way do you think the direction of this relationship runs? Areas that are richer can support higher min. wages. But if you transposed Lux’s min. wage to Greece, you’d have a disaster – massive levels of unemployment. Anyway – it’s equal plausible explanation for Washington and a good reason to question your baseless cause and effect story. Third, look up the actual studies that try and determine causality by focused comparison (the U.S. evidence is fairly inconclusive because there isa federal min. wage so it’s hard to compare states) – But look at Canada, there is no federal wage and it varies by province and so studies have stronger results. In this case we see that min. wage does correlate with high unemployment (Recent estimates i’ve read show a 10 percent increase in the minimum wage would lead to a 3 to 6 percent reduction in the employment of teens). Finally, yes, the min. wage is a terrible policy – yes, it might help you if you keep your job, but if you lose your job as a result, it’s not helping you; if it prices you out of the labour market, it’s not helping you; if it affects your job security, or the quality of your job, it’s probably not helping. Finally, why put the burden of poverty alleviation on producers that use low skill wage and consumers of those products? Even if that were effective (which it’s not), the solution to poverty is not to pay people with low skills more than they worth on the market.
tensor says
I wasn’t claiming higher minimum wages cause better economic conditions; I showed there was no co-relation between higher minimum wages and poor economic conditions. From the top of this post on down, we see many attempts to claim a causal connection from higher minimum wages to inferior economic outcomes; I’m merely pointing out the data to support these assertions does not seem to exist, and that our own experience here in Washington state does not support the claim of a higher minimum wage killing jobs.
Third, look up the actual studies that try and determine causality by focused comparison (the U.S. evidence is fairly inconclusive because there isa federal min. wage so it’s hard to compare states)
The state with the highest minimum wage, Washington, shares a border with a state with the federal minimum wage, Idaho. That border is a line on the map, and just ten miles of open road separate the college town of Pullman, Washington, from the college town of Moscow, Idaho. Yet opponents of raising the minimum wage never seem to make a comparison between these two bordering regions. Gee, I wonder why they don’t?
Pteromandias says
Ceteris parebus my friend. A little Latin is your best friend.
Alex McDougall says
This is a moral issue. Why would you want to force companies to discriminate against people who have skills are less valuable than the minimum wage? Self interested companies won’t pay $15 to workers who only bring in $10/hour of value. They’ll just not hire most of them. And, it’s those people, who don’t have a lot of skills that you want to help, right? These are students, people without highschool – often they respond by dropping out of the work force completely (and therefore out of the unemployment statistics). Look, policies that help these people are good – but the min. wage is not one of those policies. In fact, it’s harmful.
tensor says
This is a moral issue.
I thought it was an economic issue. Looks like someone is moving the goalposts to avoid losing.
Alex McDougall says
“I wasn’t claiming higher minimum wages cause better economic conditions; I showed there was no co-relation between higher minimum wages and poor economic conditions.” I’m fine with that and I wasn’t saying that the min. wage would hurt economic growth although I think it probably affect who is in the labour force. The real point is that it hurts a certain sector of people in the labour market: people who don’t have the skills to command $15/hour wages (or whatever the floor). They will be priced out of the market. That sucks for them. They are worse off. Do you care?
tensor says
Do you care that you are repeating the same predictions which were made before we voted for I-688, even though those predictions were not validated by Washington state’s subsequent economic performance?
Alex McDougall says
You have one case study which I already showed doesn’t actually tell you anything either way, verse a whole body of empirical economic literature over 50 years that basically says “yes, min. wage prices low skilled people out of the market”. I’d say that ignoring the scientific consensus that causes you to promote policies that hurt poor people IS a moral issue.
tensor says
You have one case study…
It’s not a “case study”, it’s the actual economic performance of Washington state over the fifteen years since passage of I-688. The opponents of I-688 told us it would cause economic ruin, which has not happened.
… verse a whole body of empirical economic literature over 50 years that basically says “yes, min. wage prices low skilled people out of the market”.
Yet, you have not cited any of that “empirical economic literature”. Why not?
Guest says
Washington state’s jobless rate nudged upward for the fifth month in a row in January, staying above the national unemployment level.
January’s seasonally adjusted unemployment rate was 6.4 percent, according to preliminary figures released Tuesday by the state Employment Security Department (ESD).
That’s up from 6.3 percent in December, and level with the unemployment rate in January of 2014.Related story
Good news for some of us: Other people are quitting jobs
Meanwhile, the national unemployment rate dropped from 6.6 percent in January 2014 to 5.7 percent this January. The national rate also edged up in January from December’s rate of 5.6 percent.
Letthemeatcake says
Go figure. 😉
tensor says
That’s up from 6.3 percent in December, and level with the unemployment rate in January of 2014.
But the minimum wage rose from $9.32 to $9.47 in January of 2015, so you’re saying an increase in the minimum wage had no effect on the unemployment rate.
(Also, you left out the part of the story about Washington state’s high rate of job creation. Can’t allow those inconvenient facts ruin a good theory, eh?)
Letthemeatcake says
I noticed in this thread that you have very handily sidestepped what you do for a living, tensor SO what do you do to support yourself tensor?
Eastside Sanity says
I’ll tell you what Hamster Brain does for a living, smoke a $hit load of weed in his mothers basement bedroom before heading out to the mini mart for a corn dog & red bull.
Sentry says
No, and stop twisting the argument. Not mandating something is not the same as requiring that it be cut. Conservatives say let the market decide everyone’s wages, including the CEO’s. If Apple decides to pay their guy 11 million a month, that’s their business. If a hotel wants cleaners for $2 an hour, good luck finding someone to work for that wage. No one is being forced to accept any job; if you want to earn more money, work hard, learn more skills, and EARN more money. You need to stop equating a LACK of regulation with a mandate. Your side wants to force everyone to live how you say they should live and run their businesses–or close their businesses–based on how you ignorantly think they should run them. Conservatives say let business owners run their businesses how they want and the market will sort itself out.
Mr. Foo says
More money goes to Corporate welfare than we pay in taxes. But it must be those terrible Middle class Union workers, yeah, they are the Evil Liberals.
wingnutbuster says
That’s pretty interesting that you give credit to only 11% of the workforce for causing all those problems. Because union membership is at an all-time low. So they aren’t setting the tempo for anything. And inflation is occurring now despite stagnant wages. The wage-price spiral goes both ways.
http://www.mybudget360.com/inflation-conundrum-prices-central-bank-inflation-targest-wage-growth-stalls/
theradioschizo says
““Are you happy with the $15 wage?” I asked the full-time cleaning lady.
“It sounds good, but it’s not good,” the woman said.
“Why?” I asked.
“I lost my 401k, health insurance, paid holiday, and vacation,” she responded. “No more free food,” she added.
The hotel used to feed her. Now, she has to bring her own food. Also, no overtime, she said. She used to work extra hours and received overtime pay.
What else? I asked.
“I have to pay for parking,” she said.
I then asked the part-time waitress, who was part of the catering staff.
“Yes, I’ve got $15 an hour, but all my tips are now much less,” she said. Before the new wage law was implemented, her hourly wage was $7. But her tips added to more than $15 an hour. Yes, she used to receive free food and parking. Now, she has to bring her own food and pay for parking.
Another staffer did not want to say anything, but he did say the $15 has a huge impact on the hotel.”
Sounds like it’s having an effect to me.
tensor says
Yes, anonymous anecdotes, told by an outfit which has opposed the $15/hour minimum wage, are totally reliable and compelling information. (It still does not explain why the very hotel whose manager told us would curtail operations by a little is now expanding them by a lot, but you just know you’ll never have an answer for that one. don’t you?)
Also, no employer ever reduced benefits for low-skilled workers before the $15/hour minimum wage. It just never happened. Ever.
Let us know when you’ve learned that rumors don’t usually turn out to be true.
scooter says
It’s not anonymous, it was in the news when it happened,. Pay attention maybe?
tensor says
Not one of the persons quoted was named. Do you know what “anonymous” means?
Mr. Foo says
Greedy employers do greedy things, that can not be blamed on “liberals” in fact, it is the NON-liberals who do things like cut benefits to cover wage increases. The liberal companies actually care about more than just profit margins.
theradioschizo says
oh my, mr. foo. that is precious. I love that people like you still exist.
bannedforselfcensorship says
SeaTac is an airport. It has captive customers.
Guest says
Seatac is a AIRPORT. You have a very captive audience. Also the law was written not to affect very many businesses or people. Read more about it and you will understand.
tensor says
Seatac is CITY. It happens to contain an airport, but the Port authority is actually fighting implementation of the $15/hour minimum wage at the airport itself.
Guest says
Paul Guppy, researcher at the Washington Policy Center, said some employers are removing benefits like free meals to make up for the wage increase.
“We’re not seeing the big benefits that proponents said we would because so few people are affected,” said Guppy. “And at the same time, it’s not having a ripple effect through the economy. It just affects so few jobs, it’s not having much impact.”
tensor says
He cited no economic data, and gave no examples. That’s just rumor-mongering, not reporting.
Interesting, though, that even a guy from the right-wing Washington Policy Center admitted the $15/hour had little impact. That contrasts nicely with predictions of doom on this site, doesn’t it? 🙂
Guest says
Because so few jobs were affected. Did you read it?
tensor says
Yes, I did. I also read this prediction, from the Washington Policy Center’s analysis of Seatac’s Proposition 1:
It is estimated more than 6,000 workers would earn the new wage.
How about Paul Guppy tell us why his employer got it wrong?
Better yet, how about ShiftWA tell us why we should care what the Washington Policy Center says about anything?
Joe Yentz says
A majority of waitstaff is over 20, have you ever been in a restaurant that doesn’t have pictures of the food on the register?
Popevil says
Where in that bill does it say that those who are already making $15 and hour will be compensated with an increase in wages equal to the amount of the increase in the new minimum wage pay scale? This bill is discriminatory at best. It fails to consider those who are already making above the minimum wage equal opportunity. This is just another means of redistribution of wealth through legislation and to tell those aka., middle class non business owners to suck it.
Thrall4life says
$15 per hour will be no easier to get by on than what it is now because everyone will have to raise prices to cover the new cost so in the end you gained no ground at all. It is like buying a car they can make it look like they are giving you a bunch of money for your trade and not go down on the price of the new car or, they can come off the price of the new car a bunch and not give you shit for yours. Looks like somebody did not pay attention to their math teacher.
tensor says
Then why has the poverty rate here trailed the national average for at least seven years?
Facts, how do they work?
Pteromandias says
Causation, how does it work?
tensor says
Not the way opponents of a higher minimum wage think it does, obviously.
Pteromandias says
You take two variables, one which has a huge number of other outside influences, and compare it to the actions of another variable. You control for absolutely none of those others, yet you confidently assert that the movement of one is caused exclusively by the other. Methinks one of us doesn’t understand how this works.
tensor says
You take two variables, one which has a huge number of other outside influences, and compare it to the actions of another variable. You control for absolutely none of those others, yet you confidently assert that the movement of one is caused exclusively by the other.
Yes, that is exactly what opponents of raising the minimum wage always claim: raising one variable, the minimum wage, will cause a huge number of economic problems. They make no reference to any other variables. They “confidently assert that the movement of one is caused exclusively by the other.”
Meanwhile, I have not claimed any casual connection between raising the minimum wage and overall economic performance, and I have cited actual economic data from Washington state, showing that high minimum wages have co-existed with low unemployment and low poverty for well over a decade. It is the opponents of higher minimum wages who must explain that contradiction of their theory.
lairdp says
Keep in mind that $15 an hour isn’t some crazy made up number, it’s the same value (correcting for inflation) of the minimum wage in the 1970s. Are you saying that businesses now are so badly run that they can’t pay what businesses 40 years ago could pay workers?
John Gee says
I call BS on your “corrected for inflation” please provide your source.
Fleagus Gustafario says
It doesn’t matter how much information he provides, you won’t listen…you’ll attack the source as not being valid no matter where it comes from…your thoughts on this are personal gut feelings, not based in fact.
Letthemeatcake says
Minimum wage was around a $1.75 in the mid 70s. I know because I have been working since the mid 70s and I call BS too.
lairdp says
You’re forgetting about inflation. In constant dollar terms (i.e. accounting for inflation) the minimum wage peaked in 1968, and has been dropping ever since. Yes, $1.75 in 1968 is worth $11 2014 dollars, or about $15 in 2020 dollars. That’s why the “living wage” projects talk about $15 an hour minimum wage, put in place incrementally over five years – it just gets workers back to where we were in 1968.
Really they should just tie the minimum wage to the poverty level – anyone working a full time job should make at least the minimum it takes to survive (i.e. the poverty level).
Understand economics says
Does any one realize the finacial ramifications of this. Example number one a Starbucks Coffee cost 4 dollars it will now cost 8 in Seattle. Innovation and startups will have no choice but to start elsewhere. Most of your simple amenities will dwindle to where there will be no malls left as the retail market is already suffering all major clothing stores will close their brick and mortars. Abercrombie, Macys, JC penny as profit margins will be in the red. This will lead to Seattle losing its identity and literally turn Seattle into the most expensive city in America and maybe the world no amenities. People will have to pay more taxes as teachers, police and for fighters will not stand for making the same as an unskilled labor worker with no education. The cities real estate prices will plumet as everyone moves out and the over abundance of housing that will sit on the market. Peoples life savings of paying for a 400k house no worth 150 are ruined by a measly person who does not want to put the effort into getting a skilled labor or education. You can raise the min. Wage but it will still be min. Wage because of other cost that will have to go up because a loaf of bread will cost 6 dollars. There are enough entitlements in the USA why make people lazier.
tensor says
Most of your simple amenities will dwindle to where there will be no malls left as the retail market is already suffering all major clothing stores will close their brick and mortars. Abercrombie, Macys, JC penny as profit margins will be in the red. This will lead to Seattle losing its identity and literally turn Seattle into the most expensive city in America and maybe the world no amenities.
I believe you’re describing the effects of Amazon.com on local retailers. Amazon is hiring so many persons here in Seattle, they’re building new office towers to hold them all. (For some reason, none of these high-wage new positions have been mentioned by critics of Seattle’s $15/hour minimum wage…)
Letthemeatcake says
The reason these high wage jobs are not being mentioned is because these jobs are going to SKILLED, trained and educated workers with experience not fast food chain workers.
tensor says
I thought that a high minimum wage led to less job creation. Perhaps the people who told me that were dead flat wrong?
lairdp says
Why do you think that Seattle won’t benefit from a higher minimum wage the wry every other place has ?
Mr. Foo says
Bulls**t. I am starting a new Career job her in Seattle soon, at a large company that has been doing great business for well over 100 years. I am 44 and have over 20 years or relevant work experience, but how much is my starting wage for my future career?? that’s right, 9.52 an hour. Working full time that would pay my rent only. The fact is, government IS the people, and we the people believe in a fair wage. The new law exempts any company or franchise with less than 50 employees. No one Chooses to be a Burger flipper, people stuck with those jobs have other issues. I swear, you are ignorant and misinformed!!
Mr. Foo says
Sorry tensor, this was not directed at you.
Eastside Sanity says
Seattle rent is really high, isn’t it. I’m not sure your new career is the right choice, even at $15.00 an hour. You might be able to apply for WA health care subsidies if your new employer doesn’t provide them, that might help. Also there are other benefits available from WA that will provide free services for you.
Letthemeatcake says
I’m calling BS on you Foo. Name the company and your position. Tell us your background. You are spinning a yarn with your 9.52. If this mythical company is large like you claim, they are not exempt. Beside anyone like you on your “fair wage” high horse would deem yourself too good for the job with all your experience. And anyone with common sense would look elsewhere for a job that pays more for the relevant experience you claim to have.
Timothy Kincaid says
News flash: no one is going to pay teenagers “living wages”. They simply don’t bring enough to the job to justify it.
Monab says
That’s the way it used to be but now there are plenty of adults trying to support families in low wage jobs. Costs keep rising and it simply isn’t possible to live on 7 or 8$ an hour. Butch suggests that people who stay in low wage jobs are just lazy. I think he appears to be lacking in interest and compassion when it comes to those who are not as fortunate as he perhaps is.
Johnathan Pertolick says
Oh look, Butch, you must be one of those “Christians” we liberals hear so much about. Based on all of the condescension, insulting and lies in your post, I conclude that you are a fantastic representative for your Jesus.
I have no doubt that Jesus would be proud of your strong Christian values of hating the poor and mocking them.
dude1394 says
The minimum wage push is so their democrats newest voters can have more money to spend.
Sp Nelson says
I grew up around the Detroit area- and I’ll tell you “Brigadier”, you aren’t far off. I see many of the same things happening in Seattle that happened in Michigan.
BuckyBadger says
Rich CEOs and Board Members stealing millions from their company and claiming it was the worker caused the problem? Than they will fly in a private plane asking for a bailout?
JudyB says
Yeah, it was the restaurants in Detroit that were the problem… LOL
Katsstud says
Ideological brainwashing and class envy. Get a new story.
BuckyBadger says
Yes I should listen to the propaganda pushed on to me rather than facts.
Katsstud says
Yes that seems to be the case.
BuckyBadger says
It is funny how the work force is now the problem yet wages have been static for 40 years in almost any blue collar profession. Math isn’t your strong suit either yet, probably too fact based for yourself.
NWBizOwner says
Open up a business and then come back and post…
BuckyBadger says
Have been in small business all my life friend. Ran a bar and cafe with my parents and run a 17 unit motel now.
Zipowitz says
I’m curious, do you pay your room service attendants $15 an hour? Are you paying them enough to put them in the middle class? Do you think you should make more than them because you are the owner?
BuckyBadger says
Of course I should make more as I am taking on the risk and providing the business. Yes I do pay them $15/hr, have for 3 years now. I also give a nice bonus if our revenue goals are met. My family and I have had very little turnover in 25 years of business (in 3 different businesses) and found it far more profitable to invest in our employees as they are a big part of how your business is run. Everything I have done is customer service base so I want to make sure my customer is getting the best service I can provide. It isn’t a crazy concept and been done by larger companies such as Starbucks and proven to be very profitable.
asdfjklkl says
What 17 unit motel do you operate, I would like to visit it and perhaps we could meet to talk over your economic thoughts? Just provide the name, I will GPS it and take it from there.
Skip Tindle says
Bullshit! Prove you have a hotel, prove you have paid them $15.00 an hour for the last 3 years. Lying sack of shit libatard!
BuckyBadger says
What would you have me do? Give my address so you can slam my place online? I have been in small business all my life, don’t need you to believe me. You can’t even make an intelligent argument, just call names which I have found to be common among the conservatives.
Katsstud says
Working for your parents isn’t the same as being in business Einstein, and certainly doesn’t add any credibility to your arguments.
Kibber_SF says
Most people don’t understand the amount of money it takes away from a business to keep training people if you have a high turnover rate. I found it better to pay my employees more than the prevailing rate, got better workers and they stayed much longer so I made a profit increase of 7% the first year I raised wages.
Scott Harvey says
You really just made a great argument for not raising the minimum wage to $15. You appear smart enough to have figured out that by paying the $15 per hour wage, which is DOUBLE the federal minimum that you are able to have great employees with little turnover. Many other small businesses do this as well for the same reason- the jobs they offer are more desirable and attract better applicants. If everyone is paid a minimum of $15 all of the sudden your $15 isn’t so attractive anymore. Perhaps you would need to double that to $30 per hour to achieve the same result.
uglybagofwater says
And what happens if minimum wage rises to the level of what you are already paying your employees? Do you give them all a 40% bump, or do you keep paying them what anyone can make sweeping floors?
BuckyBadger says
This is a case by case situation as any business owner knows. Since I give all my good workers a cost of living raise every year by the time Seattle or the nation is up to $15/hr my good employees will be making more and the bad ones will be somewhere else. This isn’t rocket science you know. Lots of great examples of companies treating their employees right and being successful.
beauxdog says
Good question!
Katsstud says
Do you always have this much trouble staying focused? Work force is the problem? HUH? What does wage stagnation and blue collar workers have to do with the minimum wage?
I suppose you don’t know a lot about post industrial societies especially in light of the advent of global trade and outsourcing. Traditional blue collar jobs in manufacturing have virtually disappeared during the period you mentioned as we lost market share and domination in many industries. Wages in many of these industries were artificially high due to organized labor and corruption which contributes to lower wage data. Many workers from these industries found work where they could and such supply also suppressed wages as well. Due to the competition from international competitors and consumers buying on price point, you will be waiting a long time for wage rebounding in these sectors. The world has changed and no amount of foot stamping will change that.
I guess my Econ degree and thirty years in small business and corporate management wouldn’t mean much to such a genius as yourself, but it would probably help not to bring a paper baton to a gunfight.
BuckyBadger says
No amount of B.S. is enough for you guys. Keep believing it is the common man causing stagnant wages. Next you will tell me “trickle down theory” works as well.
Katsstud says
I think we all understand your singlemindedness when it comes to economics, but how do you equate what is being said here to mean that the working man caused a problem? The minimum wage does not have anything to do with experienced workers on the whole.
You can believe all the ideological rants you want, but without promotion of investment, there are no jobs. Please blame those who believe that expanded entitlement programs and demotivation of small business and tradesmen are a good thing for the future of this country. Let class envy and unrealistic expectation color your emotional judgement so that smugness in politics is more important than stability and growth.
BuckyBadger says
If you ideals actually worked in reality you might have a point but every time we get someone with you ideals in power the economy tanks.
You talk about smugness but you should take a look at your own posts. Keep believing your B.S. but when it is said and done there will be no small business because there will be no money with the common man to make a real small business.
Katsstud says
Your ideology blinds you to the facts, but live with your irrational hatred and bigotry if it makes you feel better. Religiously political ideologues such as yourself don’t care for facts, so if you think my knowledge is smugness and your baseless rants are facts, then enjoy….
BuckyBadger says
You spew nothing but rhetoric and bring no facts. I have said nothing that can be called bigotry but you like to use that word because it has power behind it. Keep blaming the middle class for these finical crisis because it makes sense, I mean they control all the money right?
Katsstud says
Keep lying to yourself and look up bigotry…you might get it. Please keep believing that the middle class will control the money anytime in history..that is why you are stuck on class warfare…pipe dreams and envy. Socialist fantasies as if rulers in such systems aren’t the holders of wealth.
BuckyBadger says
You like to make the straw man argument don’t you. I am not a socialist in the least, just believe the working class deserves their share of the pie. Provide a link to your numbers and prove your facts. Until than you are talking in nothing but rhetoric. Show me the $10 Billion in labor costs.
Jason McGowan says
The lie that I see you believing is that the pie is only so big. That’s the lie our government wants us to believe. Capitalism says make a larger pie.
lairdp says
Exactly – increasing the minimum wage gives people more money to spend, which increases demand, increasinf sales and growing the “pie”. This supported by 80 years of econimic data – every time wages go up the economy grows and businesses grow.
The lie is that sales are a fixed number, so paying people decent wages is wasting money. In reality, cutting wages shrinks the eonomy, hurting the very businesses we want to benefit.
YoungstownTuneUp says
I do so enjoy it when the idealists chime in… Especially when they use the classic “Every time” example of an emotional plea to attempt to make something seem factual that is anything but..
“every time wages go up the economy grows and businesses grow”…Yes! you actually said that in a comment, following an article which expressly explains that businesses.. restaurants and hotels are shutting their doors Because of.. wait for it.. the increase in Labor Costs!!! probably didn’t mean those businesses….
And those interviewed, who’ve managed to Keep their jobs express disappointment For lost wages from tips and overtime.. as well as added costs from having to buy food they didn’t have to before and pay for parking they didn’t have to before..
Every Time.
lairdp says
The article was, as I pointed out, lying. They were speculating that in the future restaurants would close due to higher wages. Without the writer actually contacting the restaurants involved, mind you – it was simply political spin, not based on facts. When an actual journalist contacted the restaurants, the closings were due to the usual causes of restaurant closings, including several who were moving to expand because they were doing so well, all having nothing to do with wages going up (obvious, since the wages hadn’t actually gone up yet).
You shouldn’t hide fact-free political spin as if it were facts.
Katsstud says
That is an archaic business insight lairdp, even though it may hold some water in the very short term as new consumer money flows into local markets, but in the end becomes inflationary and causes loss in buying power.. Discussing the past in economic terms ignore the realities of the present. International competition has made your argument unsound. It wasn’t that long ago that we bought products made here so the distribution of money towards labor made sense to support sales. That is not the case anymore for any of the post-industrial economies as manufacturing follows low labor and overhead. Our part of the chain is mostly sales and supply which drives a much lower wage.
We print money by the boatload to stabilize value in the short term through market buys, but in the end the debt will come due as much of our economic value is owned by others. So yes, sales can go up, but in the macro sense only when much of it flows outward. The average domestic worker does not drive growth anymore, so the argument fails.
lairdp says
Interesting theory. In practice, wherever the minimum wage has been increased, the result has been a boost to the economy, benefitting businesses. Because, in reality, consumer buying power is actually what drives the economy. When you give the lowest income workers more income, it all flows into the economy boosting business, increasing sales of their suppliers, etc.
BuckyBadger says
Where did I even remotely say that? I am not the one saying you can’t pay your workers am I? Sounds like those that want to pay unlivable wages are saying their pie isn’t big enough.
Jeff Corbin says
Please! Don’t have a battle of wits with an unarmed person!!
KOUR says
“finical”? Your arguments might have more effect if you could spell or proofread.
Katsstud says
Look up the word bigotry Einstein and understand that your stereotypes and baseless hatred are no different than other forms of prejudice. Again your premises are thrown out there as my thoughts even though I never said such things. Your preoccupation with other people’s money is irrelevant to the facts of business and economics. Perhaps your comfort with this line of reasoning has to do with relying on others for your career. The numerous people I have known who work in a family business have a much different perspective than those who started and built it.
Pondhopper says
I just stepped into this and i have to say all have a point. I boiled it down to a good business knows how to make their work force work better, pay is a incentive. A happy work force is more efficient. the other extreme is the shareholder where the bottom line is all that counts when investing. Cut corners ship jobs less costs in labor as it is the biggest cost. The two do not meet in the middle. the results of a bonus is hard to quantify and higher position compensation is not straightforward, what is a bonus may be just the expected pay after successfully meeting sales figures. The discrepancy of the average worker and executive pay growth has fuel the class separation. the term share the wealth would go far but this does not fit with the free market shareholder investment system. There is no answer just compromise. Good luck all
Pro business advocate says
Bucky,
I will tell you from experience of opening 25 restaurants in the past 20 years that we are now in the worst political and governmental environment for opening a new business that I have ever experienced. As an investor, one who forks out the money to start a new business and create the jobs or to invest in a large company, Ford , GM , investors don’t invest unless there can be some return ie Profits. This administration has done every thing they can to take from the so called rich investors/ business owners to give to the needy and otherwise government dependents that it’s programs have produced. There’s not much incentive left to invest and be a job creator so start something yourself and know the big guys that risk opening and time and money should be compensated for starting new business because we’re a dying breed. And yes paying guys $40.00 /hr to paint tires black on an assembly line did put Detroit out of business essentially.
BuckyBadger says
Current consumer confidence and the fact that more businesses are starting up across the country compared to the Bush years would say you are wrong. Everything about the economy is better now than just 8 years ago.
The fact you use the term “job creator” shows me where you politics are. The DEMAND in the market is the job creator. Don’t think so highly of yourself. There is no job without a demand for a product or service. This is how it has always been. If I where to leave my motel someone else would take my place because there is demand for that service. The job is created because of the demand, not because I run a motel. Without the demand there is nothing and without a strong middle class there is no demand.
To blame the working man over the billions stolen by the executives is just a joke. They handed out larger a bonus to a couple of board members than the whole factory floor would make in a year but blame the guy making $40/hr. Makes sense.
YoungstownTuneUp says
Hey Genius! “There is no job without a demand for a product or service”… There is No Demand for a product or service until there is a Product or service to be demanded.. where do you suppose those come from, thin air..? It requires investors, planners, developers, researchers.. and even builders – Just to get a prototype available for some consumer review and to create a buzz.. There was No demand for an iPhone, before there was an iPhone.. there was no demand for Uber before there was Uber.. Once the REAL Job Creators put their ideas into motion and created a product or service which they could promote to the buying public – Then came the demand.. This isn’t chicken-or-the-egg.. It’s real life, real economics.
BuckyBadger says
You have no idea what you are talking about. There was a demand for Uber before Uber, that is why Uber was created. There was a demand for smart phones as they never would have made them. Uber is just a cab company and smart phones are just small computers. Invention is great for economics but people don’t invent things unless they see a use for them. The ideas where in place long before these creators. Apple didn’t create the phone someone else would have. Why? Because there was a demand for it. If you haven’t noticed others are making phones as well.
The whole idea of “job creator” is political rhetoric. There are lots of people out there who have money to create a product. If one “job creator” falls off one will take his place immediately to fill that demand. It isn’t really any different than when a drug dealer gets busted, what happens? Another take his place. Why? Because there is a demand to be filled.
BuckyBadger says
You also seem to forget that there is no demand for a IPhone if no can afford it.
Katsstud says
You clearly do not understand economics Bucky, so resistance is futile and embarrassing to you.
BuckyBadger says
Again you come on here spewing rhetoric and name calling. It is the classic example of attacking the person and not the argument because you can’t back your arguments with facts.
Again you have all these responses but nothing you put down is factual and you have no real life examples to even show how it is actually working. Lets take a look at two neighboring states Minnesota and Wisconsin. One raised their minimum wage and taxed the the higher incomes and is thriving while the other followed the give the tax cuts to the rich and protect the “job creators” and hasn’t recovered from the recession that is over. This happens all time right before the eyes yet you don’t ever see it. We have seen your policies in place and they tanked a thriving economy every time. Sure the top guys get rich but it leaves debt to our government and a strain to the middle class earners to carry the burden to everyone. Time go back to what built the greatest economy ever and that was paying livable wages to employees.
Keep believing what is being shoveled to you and the economy will come to a halt because the people are earning a livable wage but once again you will be proven wrong much like conservatives have repeatedly over history.
Katsstud says
You must have a copy of all the religious memes, yet you have no idea what they mean or their application to the truth. Again the basis of most of the claims is historical or too recent to matter, but whatever pushes the narrative.
Modern Minnesota and Wisconsin are apples and oranges for the sake of economic comparison. Look at the core businesses of each to discover that the agrarian/manufacturing focus of Wisconsin will inevitably lose to the health care and tech business of Minnesota. The per capita income crossover happened back in the 60’s as manufacturing started to wane in the Midwest and Wisconsin had a hard time transitioning. Minnesota started to pull away in the early 2000’s due to these factors.
Wisconsin has a structural issue with a relatively small business hub alongside the capital which historically results in slower growth and innovation. Minnesota is historically healthier in the areas of smoking, obesity, and low birth rate, and has a more cosmopolitan college-educated workforce. Wisconsin also trails in college-educated numbers that change employability and position Minnesota for a more valuable work force. The hoopla over education only affects the long term and history shows that the demos for Minnesota will always beget better educational outcomes than Wisconsin (given higher percentages of college-educated parents with better incomes).
The minimum wage is ramped to $9.50 for the largest businesses, which won’t fully implement until 2016. Small employers still only cap out at slightly higher than the Federal minimum when fully implemented with a number of small business and youth exemptions. Obviously these changes have little effect on the gross economy. Wealth taxes and union spending make the budget look pretty, but inevitably cause problems in the business sector, which Dayton has had to deal with the past few years. Having a good setup in the beginning does not presume as a good an outcome over time.
A guy with no applicable education that runs a motel for his family, argues one-sided political ideology, and whose sole supporting arguments are based on handouts from his priests? Too funny.
BuckyBadger says
Want further back in history, look back to the 40s and 50s for when the economy grew to the best in the history of the world and worked its way out of the great depression. Ever since than your over rulers that you seem to believe are the key to all commerce have been trying to take out the regulations that protected us from the depression for their own greedy needs. You can think it is OK for companies like Walmart to make billions and have it so their workforce has to ask for assistance but I see real problem with that. You can keep spewing your rhetoric but I can show you working examples of the ideas I agree with working and you haven’t. If things worked the way you said Kansas wouldn’t be going broke, they would be thriving but that is far from the case. They are the heaven for you conservatives but they can’t even fix their roads and are going broke.
Keep believing your rhetoric that has no real life model that worked. We didn’t build the economy of this country by giving all the breaks to the few but by making sure our jobs paid livable wages and there is a healthy middle class. Keep taking away all the good paying jobs and letting companies force their employees to public assistance and wonder why the a country full of people living hand to mouth don’t have a thriving economy. I have shown enough real world examples to show you won’t believe facts. No wonder you guys don’t like science, it has do with proof and facts.
Katsstud says
Have you ever heard of creating demand? Most of the profitable businesses driving the domestic economy are market creators. Do tech companies start and thrive because people say, hey I want to buy a $600 phone, or did Apple design and dominate that market. Your motel would thrive because the product existed, the market was created and thrived, and you leaving would create a gap in supply. Do all lakes have communities that generate strong support for the local economy? If you think that, you need to get out of the motel Bucky and check out the rest of the country.
Your comment about the middle class has some merit, but it fails if the only recipe for success is artificial promotion of the group. The middle class is going away due to the contraction of the manufacturing sector, the taxation burden on the middle class, and the growth of international markets. It is easy to imagine a middle class in a closed system, but if you take from others to support an artificial class, you take away the ability of the others to promote growth.
Your insight on the economy is laughable and not supported at the street level. And I know Bush is a demon and your clergy are always right, reverent, and only in it for the little guy, but all leaders get to much credit, and too much blame as they generally have little to do with the business cycle. Income redistribution will always take away from the upper middle class and give to the poor and unproductive. The rich have assets and economic and political power to protect them while the middle class doesn’t and continue to reduce their savings rates to a level where only more will be dependent on others for senior support.
Finrod Felagund says
Everything about the economy is better now than just 8 years ago.
That is demonstrably a lie. Look at the labor force participation rate sometime, it’s the worst it’s been since the late 1970s when women were still entering the job market in force.
BuckyBadger says
You going to tell me the economy isn’t better than it was 8 years ago?
Finrod Felagund says
You said everything about the economy is better now.
I just pointed out an economic stat that’s the worst it’s been in over 35 years.
In other words, you are wrong and a liar. Admit it now and you won’t look quite as foolish.
BuckyBadger says
You pointed out a problem that is 11 years old and was roughly the same 8 years ago. Keep attacking the person and not the argument, it is what you are good at.
Finrod Felagund says
If it’s “roughly the same”, it’s not better, is it?
Keep on dissembling, you’re still a liar.
BuckyBadger says
You can take the literal approach and think it proves me wrong but you are showing that you don’t want to talk about the real issues and just want to play politics. You little stat is a long problem we are having but don’t tell me the right has the answer for it as it fell largely under the previous presidency. The economy is better today than it was 8 years ago, that is an undeniable fact and you can try to dispute it but you just look like the fools that deny evolution, climate change or equality for homosexuals.
Finrod Felagund says
Well, if you want to talk about issues, you shouldn’t say obviously bogus things, then. I was going easy on you; there are plenty of economic stats that are most certainly not better than they were eight years ago. The U6 unemployment rate, for example, is above 10 when it was below 9 eight years ago. People that have to actually live in this economy will not tell you that the economy in general is better than it was eight years ago, because it isn’t and no amount of lying on your part will make it that way.
This is the problem with arguing with idiot leftists like this one; they will say things that are blatantly false and no amount of facts will persuade them otherwise.
BuckyBadger says
Saying the economy is better than 8 years ago isn’t blatantly false or just a leftist lie as you want to put it but the truth. There isn’t an economist out there that won’t tell you that most indicators will tell you things are better. Consumer confidence is higher and the market is doing much better not to mention the housing crisis is finally coming to an end. Most living in today’s economy, as I do, will tell you things are much better and to say otherwise is a lie. The rescission is been announced by economist as being over. People are spending money again and the market has been growing. You can deny this but you are wrong and anyone with a brain can see it.
Finrod Felagund says
And here’s the leftist dodging. You’ve conveniently dropped the “eight years ago” part in your response.
If you had said the economy now is better than it was five years ago or six years ago, I wouldn’t have disputed that.
If you had said the economy now is almost as good as it was eight years ago, I wouldn’t have disputed that, either.
But that’s not what you said.
You specifically said, and I’m quoting you verbatim: Everything about the economy is better now than just 8 years ago.
Now retract that lie.
BuckyBadger says
Still not a lie. The economy 8 years ago was not better or even the same and to say so is completely ridiculous since we know where it was headed. A growing economy is better than one that is crashing.
Keep with your rhetoric, no one believes this garbage anymore. Keep with your stance that things aren’t getting better and the economy was better under the previous president. I hope the right uses that in their campaign cause everyone is just dying to go back under the Bush years. The way you even choose to argue shows you know you are wrong as you are trying to win the argument on a technicality (that is still wrong). You guys like to talk tough but have nothing to back it up.
Finrod Felagund says
Okay, since you won’t admit to a proven lie, that means you’re a dishonest actor and I don’t need to pay attention to anything you say ever again, since you’ll spew lies and not back down when called on it.
Liar.
BuckyBadger says
Here you go again attacking the person and not the argument. Calling names and not presenting any proof but just talking tough isn’t proving anything. The only way you can say the economy was the same 8 years ago would to go off the Dow and even that has been surpassed at this point today. Other indicators at that time weren’t good which is why we saw a crash and a recession. Are you going to tell me the recession didn’t happen? I will stand by my statement and you can say the crashing economy was better. Keep up your childish name calling too, really shows how strong your facts are.
lairdp says
Labor force participation rate being higher isn’t “worse” because it includes people reaching retirement age and retiring, which is is not “bad” it is “good”. The metrics of value are unemployment, which is bad and is down, and employment rate, which is good and is up.
Katsstud says
Another empty statement with no basis in fact in the first paragraph, but some truth to the second. Small business will die due to taxation and regulation and your promotion of artificially higher wages works in contrast to your concern about small business. Higher mandatory wages force the economy to adapt and most times will force the small businesses to suffer the most.
Finrod Felagund says
BuckyBadger is a proven liar and nothing he says should be trusted.
BuckyBadger says
Tell the world buddy, tell the world. You always want to listen to the guy doing the name calling.
Jack Buckmeir says
THE ECONOMY HAS ALWAYS BEEN “TRICKLE DOWN” IT’S NEVER BEEN ANYTHING ELSE BUT.
BuckyBadger says
Again you show your ignorance. Job creation doesn’t happen by giving the rich tax breaks and them more money. That doesn’t create a demand. Jobs are created when there is a demand for a product and there is no way better to create a demand than to have a healthy work force so they can spend their money. Bill Gates didn’t get rich by wealth trickling down to him. He had a product that was in demand to the masses and he sold it to them.
MeanieHead says
Hey Bucky, when you’re doing your research, try not hitting all the liberal-leaning websites.
Stevie says
So, hey there, Meanie. I’m noticing a trend with you and that’s that you never present any facts. Rather you just give your emotional responses. You should try using some facts every now and then. It will at least make arguing with you more fun.
MeanieHead says
Hey Stevie, I’m channeling my inner libtard right now and relying on making up my own facts. Get with the program dude.
Debbie Lynn Meents-Aman says
^^^Brilliant response MeanieHead!! Brilliant and funny as hell!!
BuckyBadger says
To blame labor unions for the collapse in Detroit and ignore all the corruption that happened at the executive level just demonstrates you don’t look at the facts and what built that industry in the 50s. Funny how this work paid very well than and everyone profited. Might want to look at how our average executive makes compared to his average worker compared to other countries and tell me it is the labor union that is the problem.
Katsstud says
Although there is corruption at all levels, you would need to understand that economically paying an executive millions of dollars does not appreciably affect the bottom line. Beyond the fact that a competent CEO can swing the bottom line by many times their salary, the gross cost of line employees is the largest operating expense and that the pension and payroll costs are what killed Detroit. To say otherwise would be ignorant even though CEOs had a lot of responsibility with the lack of cost control. When automation levels in Detroit expanded dramatically, it was a response to union intransigence, not just a profit and efficiency issue.
Many love to rant the populist class envy of what other people make and shareholders are certainly doing a better job at regulating executive compensation, but in the end we can’t compete in the manufacturing world and blue-collar jobs suffer because of it.
BuckyBadger says
Yea it was that pension and payrolls that cost them all that money. Not the billions in bonuses they paid out even thought the company was failing. Keep believing your B.S.
Katsstud says
You mean the 134 billion in pension obligations GM owed with 10 billion in arrears on hourly workers alone prior to the bankruptcy? Populist fantasies that CEOs are backing up trucks to gather the cash when stockholders approve the pay plans…but education instead of baseless hate would help immensely. Facts are tough on the angry extremist children of the left as well as a definite void in knowledge and experience to back up the rants. Stampede the sheep and ignore reality…I suppose it keeps the hate and bigotry going
BuckyBadger says
Yea all your name calling shows you really look at his objectively. Can you provide a link for you numbers? Show me all your facts.
Katsstud says
Pretty harsh tasting your own medicine eh?
Do your own research Buck…it’s easy to find, and I’m not your momma. All the best.
BuckyBadger says
My own medicine? You quoted a number that is 3x the payroll of the NFL. You can’t provide any proof because you make it up.
RC says
it’s public information, jackass…
Rob says
Just stop, kid. The grown-ups have slapped you down with the truth so many times we’re getting a little embarrassed for you. You have been given statistic after statistic that is 100% legitimate, yet you still pout and whine. If you want to try and refute his facts, do your own research. You won’t, because you know you will fail.
That escalated quickly says
Google it you lazy @@@@
GMs PENSION LIABILITIES
All you have to do is copy and paste
Paulczar says
I must say, I’m in between katsstud and Bucky philosophically, but must say katsstud definitely had better, more articulate, more fact based arguments than Bucky. Bucky, agree or disagree philosophically, but at least katsstud provided you with real numbers and backed up their claims as much as possible. All Bucky was saying is that CEOs are paid to much and are theifs that ruined the company and wages. So much more complicated than that Bucky, and this is what katsstud was at least trying to get you to concede. But nope, CEOS and their damn bonuses ruined everything. CEOs are paid what the market dictates. Want good leadership at your company? Better get your wallet out, because if you don’t the next company WILL pay what you wouldn’t. Same can currently be seen in the ever rising salaries of athletes, college football
coaches, etc… Their earnings seem outrageous, and yet, this is what the market dictates they are worth. It’s complicated dude.
Tony Bruin says
i will give you the same question I gave Bucky…. Do you have a problem with an Actor, Entertainer or an Athlete making $20 million or more per year? if not why the hypocrisy?
jjw says
This Bucky badger guy is an idiot hahahaha
That escalated quickly says
Google it lazy liberal
How typical you want everything done for you
BuckyBadger says
You think name calling is working for you conservatives. It isn’t a wonder why Trump and Cruz are your leading candidates.
amusing_myself says
Oops.. run out of steam.. quick.hmmm….. gotta think of a zinger so I can post quickly… aww … there it iss… worrrthless content dodging
John Willis says
yaa well bucky beaver buddy ,you got youre ass whooped lol .
amusing_myself says
Ditto – YOU 1st
Katsstud says
Perhaps online math and economics courses would help you to understand instead of wasting your time reading bigoted blogsites at the motel. You are stuck in the same corner as the religious extremists on the right, yet your religion is just as inflexible and blind.
That escalated quickly says
Yes paying someone to not work for the company would NEVER take a toll on the company
Let’s see who is worth more… a monkey line worker who they can find ANYONE to do the job or someone with BRAINS that can come up with an idea and make a decision that can cost the or gain the company billions
BuckyBadger says
You actually think the CEO can’t be replace? You don’t understand economics or business. The person causing a demand is the most important and your average worker are the ones causing a demand.
Tony Bruin says
I have yet to see any CEO get paid billions…. CEO’s bonuses are paid in stock options so if the stock does well so do the CEO’s. Yet I bet you have no problem with an ACTOR or an Athlete get paid $20 million per film or per year correct? Why the hypocrisy?
BuckyBadger says
Is the NFL going bankrupt? Is Hollywood asking for bail outs? I am for everyone making what the market can bare. To compare the wage of a person in an industry who is producing money to a CEO who is embezzling money and tanking his industry is just plain silly. The boards where handing out huge bonuses and taking money out for crooked reasons and their profits didn’t justify it. Compare that to a NFL QB again?
Tony Bruin says
Jumping to extremism okay ….. tell me over the last decade tell me who all of the CEO’s who embezzled money and if they are making billions like you say why the need to emezzel. Your arguments have more holes than swiss cheese. You are just a pissed off person because some people rise to the top and get paid.
My CEO is from Germany and drives a modest car. He is very approachable and leads an $8 billion dollar company. I have no problem with what he makes. He has product that he must maintain plus keep the share holders and its employees as the customers who keep us all off welfare.
Bailouts… you do know that not all banks did not ask for bailouts right? so like Wells Fargo was forced to take a bailout so that the Federal Government can have a grasp on them and if they did not take the bailouts they could not issue any mortgage loans. So you know what happened they took the money at almost no interest and bought government bonds. They made loans to those only with AAA credit ratings and 20% down payment. They made billions off the government because of their intrusion and over stepping arm. It was your stupid liberal officials that created this mess. True capitalism would have let these banks and insurance companies fail. Other banking and insurance institutions would have gobbled them up to fulfill areas in markets that they were lacking in their portfolio. But Obama, Hilary, Dodds and Reid bailed them out.
BuckyBadger says
Why do millionaires embezzle? Are you going to sit here and tell me that just because someone is rich they won’t want to embezzle money or engage is crooked practices to gain more money and power? Your rich person worship is beyond funny. First I am not pissed off at any one. I have made a pretty good living and in the process of selling my own business which will put me very close to retiring at age 50. Go ahead and make your own straw-man argument like every conservative has to resort to because their arguments don’t hold water or work in real life.
Go look at the crap that has gone on with the corporate world as their paid off politicians create more and more laws to benefit them. You also need to go look when these problems started as it wasn’t when Obama was in office yet. You blame him for everything anyways, even things that started long before he was in office. Did he bail out? Yes but so did the previous administration. You praise these corporations getting rich while their workers are getting paid so poorly they have to get their income supplemented by my taxes. That helps no one but the owners of McDonald’s, Walmart and several others.
How you talk of banks buying each other up as a good thing shows you need to pick up a few books on how a market is established and why a healthy market needs separation in its markets. The monopolies in this country are what is killing capitalism. We used to fight this but every since Reaganomics was put in place any law protecting a free market has been removed by every administration since. Stop worshiping the rich, they aren’t any better than anyone else. Most them where just born into a better situation.
Tony Bruin says
So you don’t know of any CEO that have embezzled so you full of and jusy making shit up as you go along. Have a nice life
BuckyBadger says
I am glad I disagree with people that think like you do. Anyone who supports “Trickle Down” or is going to vote for Cruz or Trump I don’t want to agree with.
You really think the CEOs have been playing by the rules. Kenneth Lay from ENRON didn’t embezzle any money? Citibank wasn’t charged for fraud? The list is known and easily found on google. The practices on Wallstreet haven’t been good the last 50 years but I guess it is OK when the rich steal.
Mr Edward Leo says
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Godson says
Finding out I was HIV positive wasn’t easy. But, as time has passed, I have slowly come to terms with my HIV-positive status and try to tackle it with a positive attitude. In mid-2007 I became quite ill, I developed persistent flu like symptoms, headaches, a nagging cough and sores that wouldn’t heal, My skin felt as if it was crawling, my legs ached, I felt nauseous and lost weight.Then exhaustion hit, It was an indescribable tiredness and no matter how much I slept I never felt rested.
In 2008 I was hospitalized when my CD 4 count nosedived to 86, HIV-negative people have a CD 4 count of between 700 and 1,000; a CD 4 count of below 200 is considered dangerously low). It was a terrible time. I have a vivid memory of sitting in a wheelchair covered with a blanket and catching a glimpse of myself in the mirror. I looked and felt like a little old lady was 32 I was so ill I could barely walk 200 meters. I hadn’t realized how little I appreciated my health until it was taken away from me,Fortunately I had a fantastic support system. Even though I was struggling to cope at work I didn’t lose my job. On the contrary the company I work for, my colleagues and my boss have been incredibly supportive throughout my illness.
It was a frustrating time because I so desperately wanted to function like a normal human being, Yet I honestly thought I was going to die. I thought I was too far gone, It’s almost as if your body begins to reject everything it requires to sustain life, It was probably the scariest time of my life I wished not for a bigger house or more money or a fancy car I wanted to have the strength to go for a simple walk on the beach, clubing,singing and even dancing But i never had these chance to do all i wanted not until when i came across an email on a website which was spectator sites based on advice site, i saw these email of a man whose name was Dr magician i read an article on how he help cure someone HIV sickness at first after i read it i laugh for the first time because it was as if its a joke or scam, But there was a thought in my mind saying try your luck i could resist these But to email the Dr whose email was [email protected] i emailed him with my heart full of faith and believe and guess what?? he replied my mail and agreed to help me But he said it wasn’t easy at all which i knew already so i have to comply with [email protected] and i provided all he said because money was nothing to me when i was half dead so gave the amount to him that he demanded to purchase magical materials and herbs And within a week he emailed me back telling me he is done and he asked for my home details and he got a parcel sent to me with DHL company and here i am now feeling so much healthy and free from Hiv i just got back from the hospital days ago and i was confirmed negative i know these is hard to believe But my dear brethren in the lord there is nothing that God can not do here is your chance to try your luck if in any infection i believe Dr magician to be a very powerful and strong herbalist email His address [email protected]
remain Blessed.
yours faithfully
Anastasia merry
WordCrafter says
Gotta blow the whistle on this BS, sorry! TARP was signed into law in 2008 by GW Bush. The bailouts occurred in 2009 during the last year of the Bush budget. Obama was president, but Bush set this plan in motion before he left office.
amusing_myself says
Hmmmmm… Lets pay one or two VISIONARIES excessive amounts because they brought in Super excessive amounts of gross income…. These salaries still pale to the total cost of labor and its tertiary monetary needs..
Quit whilst you can Bucky… your talking points are so wrong
Bruce L. Johnson says
I worked for GM as an engineer for a time. Based on what I saw, I believe the problems with the domestic auto industry were rooted in poor management, not unions. Bad union contracts were just a symptom of how bad the management was. Toyota is dealing with the UAW, and has no problem making cars here.
amusing_myself says
Kinda related…however, I have been in the Transportation Lighting business for almost twenty years and can factually report about the direct reasons that Federal Mogul ceased manufacture of Seal Beams and Miniature lamps is current Union salaries, retired Union salaries, and health care for both sets. Those costs alone are much much more than the salaries of the Alphabet (CEO CFO …) employees which is more on topic.
Matthew Arntzen says
GM workers in the early 1970’s were making 18 dollars an hour with full medical and dental.
There WAS the AFL/CIO that caused a tremendous amount of the problem. That would be the equivalent of making around $70 an hour today.
On the other hand, we can’t forget management either. They have taken these same $18/hr jobs and moved them to Mexico where they can pay them $17/day.
Phil Schipsi says
And if they didn’t move to Mexico, they could not sell their cars in the USA.
That escalated quickly says
Then how can Volkswagen open a plant in Kentucky (?) and sell their cars here?
Tony Bruin says
Them, BMW and Toyota opened up state of the art plants in the south and I believe there are union free, they pay as I guess is a livable wage with benefits, but pensions are not guaranteed, they have matching 401K programs. Much different the what was going on in Detroit, also Democrat programs did nothing to help matters either.
That escalated quickly says
I figured it was something like that
Thank you for clarifying
lairdp says
Asian and German companies aren’t anti-union. In fact, BMW ran into trouble with the politicians in the US because they wanted unions, because that’s how all German companies operate – they have strongly, productive relationships between workers’ unions and management in Germany. But US politicians didn’t want unions in the US factories because that might encourage unions elsewhere.
Given that German and Japanese labor is highly paid and highly unionized, that they’re beating US non-union cheap labor, I don’t think unions or wages are the problem. The problem with the US car companies its that management got lazy because they thought that they had a monopoly, and they produced unreliable cars, assuming that Americans would buy bad cars because they were US-made, and of course, it didn’t work out that way. For perspective, in Europe the US car companies made much better cars because they knew that they had to compete. A Ford in Europe is a much, much better car than in the US – because management there is more aggressive.
WordCrafter says
Then maybe you can explain why Asian automakers have been building cars in the USA and having no trouble selling them. American company management did not retool and keep up with new technology. Instead, they took the reinvestment money with them as stock options and bonuses when they left the company. The workers knew that the product quality was slipping but greedy managers chose to sink the business on the way out the door.
Goomba Fasse says
people always forget the fact that we’ve virtually eliminated trade tariffs. Tariffs were historically 30 percent through most of the nations’ history. If tariffs were still at thirty percent the average US factory could easily outcompete most of the world, and wages would be three times what they are now on average. Lets do the math, the average worker earns three times as much….. but goods are at most only 30 percent more expensive? Seems an easy solution to me. Too bad our politicians sold us out for bribes that were so small in retrospect that every dollar spent cost the average american over 100k. I love people who love power and money and have absolutely no intelligence, loyalty or perspective.
John Willis says
Phil: that mexico built product is total trash ,they fall apart as you drive them ,
GeckoCA says
When I was in High school Home builders paid up to $15 an HR and you did not have to speak Spanish. Today you lucky to get $10 and if you do not speak Spanish you will not get hired.
lairdp says
Add incompetent management that got lazy and allowed foreign competitors to kick their ass. Foreign competition with high wage, unionized labor, generally (Germany, Japan) who designed and made better products.
Progressive Republican says
Posting reality to refute ideological b.s.?
Pretty cheeky.
Katsstud says
Actually Ford was the originator of high-production high-wage jobs back in the Henry Ford era, so you can stick to the capitalists only live to keep the worker down comments to your committee meetings unless you have real knowledge to add to the mix. To ignore that unions had an equal share of the responsibility for the death of the Rust Belt is only ignorance or too much adherence to your religious dogma. The pamphlets and blogs you rely on for facts are only propaganda designed to feed the readily swayed and lazy.
Comparing Germany, Japan, and the US is pointless and ascribing the success of industry to unions is ignorant. Japan’s labor movements killed their heavy industry and membership plummeted as did ours when this occurred. Germany has also shifted away from larger consolidated companies to smaller units and temporary workforces to counter international competition due to unsustainable business models. Both countries have had heavy government involvement in its industries and as such contributed to such a decline as international competition expanded, were more flexible, and took market share. The unions in the US got greedier than the stockholders and helped to kill the golden goose. To think otherwise is just religious nonsense.
lairdp says
I wasn’t saying that all capitalists are evil. – I am pretty sure Ford was a capitalist. What I said was US car manufacturers were short sighted and destroyed their own market. Given that they got beat by Japan and Germany, which are more unionized, you can’t simply blame unions.
brianguy says
Which are also in some countries heavily subsidized by their governments for export, and/or have import tariffs against our products… not as cut and dry as it appears on the surface. Look how many American cars are imported to China, and yeah they have plenty of good Japanese and Korean makes at their fingertips.
Derek Jude Tallman says
Unions work much differently in Japan and Germany. They’re nothing like the UAW.
lairdp says
True, unions in Japan and Germany are much stronger than in the US.
Derek Jude Tallman says
No, they’re not adversarial. They work WITH the company for what’s best for the company, not for what’s best for their union reps.
lairdp says
Agreed.
John Willis says
and once you are an employee youre advice is valued ,and you are considered an employee for life
mark says
well the us government sending are good paying jobs overseas , hb1 visas replacing us workers and illegal aliens by the millions taking us jobs away from us workers is why they may be kicking or asses
Tony Bruin says
The government did not force and does not have the power to force companies overseas, they can have taxed them to death which made it an easier decision to move overseas. HB1 visa was a good idea when created as there was a shortage of skilled labor back in the early 90’s, but now companies are exploiting this law to lower wages buy importing cheaper labor for IT jobs. This needs to be corrected ASAP, Americans needs to shed light on companies that have done this and boycott them. I did not renew my Disneyland Passes dues to their firing of qualified employees for cheaper ones from out of the country.
BobFromDistrict9 says
Have you ever heard of Employee Participation Teams, and Employee Involvement programs? I have seen them over and over. Every one I have ever seen would have worked, but management sabotaged it. Somehow management has proven, over and over, they find it impossible to accept that workers really do have something to contribute to making decisions.
We can compete in the manufacturing world, we can’t compete with $10/day. In many countries that’s high pay.
Before Free Trade became the driver, comparisons of production efficiency started with the US ranked at 100, with every other industrial country rank against us, and below us. Japan, the worlds efficiency powerhouse was actually ranked 75% as efficient as the US. The only place they ranked higher was the auto industry. Japan was famous for sending groups to visit other manufactures in the US, and all the visitors carried cameras and took pictures. Japan’s respect for patents was legendary for it’s absence.
Unless we compete in the manufacturing world we have zero hope of bringing this country back to solvency.
Rebecca Quick says
I totally agree with you here. Nothing works in this country now, because we had a much higher standard of living here which was bolstered by the unions. Now, we are competing with countries whose wages are so much smaller, that we simply can’t compete. The only way to put this country back where it should be is to get rid of all the trade treaties, where we lost, big time, such as the GATT, NAFTA, and all the others that followed and made the United States bankrupt. We did fine financially until those were instituted.
Nimrod0 says
So, if the CEO makes $10M and saves the company $20M in labor costs, what has he really done but to steal $10M from workers to put into his own pocket? In what way does the fact that he steals another $10M from workers to give to the company make him more competent? Ridiculous.
KB says
Bucky, Bucky. Your message is a bit too shrill! Do you not know about the likes of Jimmy Hoffa and other union bosses who live high-on-the-hog living like royalty while the union rank and file work to keep food on the table? Oh, you didn’t live in Detroit as I did when the wages for a worker whose only skill was to twist a wrench as the car rolled by was 100% higher than the average person cooking their dinner. Two breaks for 24 minutes plus the 30 minute lunch during an 8 hour day. 1 hour 18 minutes (16.25%) of the work day with zero production. I am a business owner today, working an average of 11 hours with maybe lunch when I can grab it and currently making less than $7/hour. But I am one of those executives you speak of above. I encourage you to spend some time with people you don’t agree with. Not to argue, but to understand. It could change your life and make you a bit happier.
BuckyBadger says
Your story doesn’t make a bit of sense. You are one of the executives I talk about and your a small business owner and you make less $7/hr? Sell your story elsewhere my friend.
You contempt for the working man is apparent and it is the problem with this world. You call them workers with no skill but without your workforce you have nothing. The CEO’s where handing out bonuses to executives higher than the entire pay roll of the factory floor. Keep blaming the working man and not the people who took millions.
KB says
This is a start up company with zero capital. And Yes, until recently I have been making less than the current federal minimum wage. I’m sorry your paradigm will not allow the reality of my situation
BuckyBadger says
Than you aren’t one of the executives I am talking about are you? Your paradigm doesn’t exist. If you are making less the current minimum wage on your business maybe you should think about packing it in because I can pay you better to clean rooms. Being in business for yourself isn’t for everyone. If you can’t make money while the economy is growing you will be in real trouble when it hits another recession. Consumer Confidence hasn’t been better since the 90s, people are spending money again. I am full on a Tuesday night these days and booked for most of the weekends this summer. If you are still struggling in a years time you have to think if there is a real market for what you are doing.
Debbie Lynn Meents-Aman says
Why do you insist on arguing with people who are telling you their personal experiences, how can you dispute what they have experienced? Here come the ever tolerant left rearing their ugly heads when the facts do not support their arguments. Unions are outdated, it forces companies to pay the majority of workers more than their worth, to benefit the few that actually earn it!!
BuckyBadger says
Because their stories don’t add up. When people lie to make a point I will call them out as their story doesn’t hold water.
Unions are not outdated. Again the right blaming the working man for taking down a billion dollar business. The facts don’t support your claims. When the top are giving out bonuses that are larger then the payroll of the entire factory floor I find it hard that it was the worker making a lower middle class living was the problem. We saw the corruption from Detroit to Wall Street yet the right wants to blame everyone except you was actually behind all this.
The moment you take the voice away from the working man they will start to earn less money which takes away the demand of the market. A strong middle class is essential to a strong economy. No one is going to stay at my motel for a fishing vacation if they can’t afford to go.
Katsstud says
Again, the word “lie” doesn’t mean what you think it does just because you hang that badge on everything you don’t agree with. It is a reasonable inference that you feel all of the corruption is on the side of the business, but you fail to understand that corruption is just as rampant on the union side…laughable. What is the impact of a manager who can swing the bottom line by massive amounts to the floor worker who is task oriented and uses some skill to complete those tasks? To a stockholder it is a no-brainer and so investors give the thumbs up to compensation plans that reward such skill and success. Waving the populist dogma in the air over bonuses and income doesn’t relate to the real business of sustainability and competition.
To say that the company would be nowhere without the workers is a political statement, not a factual one. The value and pay of a worker rises with the rarity of their talents and availability of replacements. Your premise is mired in ideology, because the replaceability of a line worker versus a competent CEO is nowhere near the same. Basic economic knowledge should clear that up for you.
The third paragraph is perhaps the only thing you have posted that has a basis in fact and makes sense as well. Most large businesses understand this, but in the end most understand that manufacturing will never work in this country under present circumstances and rely on their workforces to consume production as was once thought.
Finrod Felagund says
So you can call other people liars but you get upset when other people call you a liar.
Typical leftist hypocrite.
BuckyBadger says
I don’t get upset, I present them with facts and they can’t come back with anything but rheotoric which is typical of the right since they don’t have facts to back themselves up. Keep telling me that trickle down economics work and paying livable wages is bad for the economy, you can’t back it up with facts but I see you like to name call so you have that doing for you.
Finrod Felagund says
Like your “fact” that everything is better in the economy than it was eight years ago?
What you think are facts and what facts really are have a wide gap between them that you don’t understand.
BuckyBadger says
Your participation rate hasn’t changed in 11 years for the most part. So 8 years ago that was still a problem but you only talk about it now as a convenience to your political agenda. It is a fact the economy is better today than it was 8 years ago, you can deny it but what else is new about conservatives. I am sure evolution isn’t a fact to you either.
Rob says
You present nothing but the puerile rantings of a child. You are entitled to your opinion, as warped by your progressive talking points as they are, but when post after post contradicts everything you say, it is time to stop. Despite what people believe, opinions can be wrong when based in untruth, and your opinion is flat wrong.
Tony Bruin says
I think you have that reversed from what I have been reading.
BuckyBadger says
This article is old and proven to be wrong. Seattle is seeing an increase in spending and more service jobs have been created in the past year. Just like many said would happen and just like what happened previous times the min wage was raised.
Tony Bruin says
what facts do you have that they are lying?
Rebecca Quick says
It is quite obvious you have never started up a small company with little in the way of start up capital. I have, and have made 50.00 a week working over 50 hours a week. It built up, but that doesn’t pay the rent in the beginning.
BuckyBadger says
My family had nothing when they started. My father was a foundry worker and my mother a cashier. They took out a mortgage on their first business and I took over their third successful business.
amusing_myself says
What a maroon you are
NYCTim says
So you claim to be a business owner working 11 hours a day and you make less than $7 an hour. So your business makes you about $75 a day. And you’re still in business? You are a MASSIVE LIAR.
Rebecca Quick says
Labor unions were the problem in Detroit. They took the dues from the workers and spent them getting the corrupt Democrat politicians elected. The corrupt Democrats took and took and took until they destroyed the city. Simple.
BuckyBadger says
Yea ignore the millions the top took out of the company in bonuses not to mention the corners they cut resulting in all their call backs.
1digger says
Detroit is a prime example of failed Democrat party policies and Seattle is following in its footsteps between anti-Business policies, high taxation, over regulation, reduced parking, etc. It’s the Democrat way to seek and destroy.
BuckyBadger says
Is that why every time the republicans get in power our economy tanks? Is that why states like Kansas and Wisconsin are not recovering while states like Colorado, Washington and Minnesota are thriving? Republicans do nothing for the working class and sell lies like “trickle down theory” which would never work. They cut education every chance they get and don’t believe that workers should make a livable wage. Every time a business fails the same rhetoric comes from the right that it was the fault of the worker but they never look at the guys at top. It was FDR that pulled us out of the great depression and ever since the country has to turn to a Democratic president to pull us out the mess a Republican just did. History shows that what you say is completely false. If you look at what built our economy rather than listen to rhetoric that comes from the right you would see it. It doesn’t surprise me one bit Trump is leading the polls for the GOP.
Derek Jude Tallman says
Bucky, you mean by the 100% Democrat government in Detroit? The people owned by the unions?
Derek Jude Tallman says
Also, the Repubs ran Detroit for much of the ’50s. The non-union bought party.
BuckyBadger says
If republicans still had the values they had in 50s I would vote for them but they don’t.
Patriot1 says
If the Democrats still had the values they had in the 40’s, 50’s, I would still be voting Democrat, but today’s Democratic Party is not the party that I grew up believing in. They have turned into nothing more than a Socialist, Dictator party.
BuckyBadger says
Republicans have gone through a much larger transformation. They used to be for the working class, now all they do is create war for contracts and do everything possible to hurt the working class. They have even gone after education in the last 10 years dumbing down text books and cutting wages of teachers. When politicians are making moves like that you know they aren’t for the middle class. Will also have to explain to me the rhetoric of being a socialist and a dictator at the same time.
Patriot1 says
It’s very simple. The USSR was the Union of Soviet Socialist Russia which had a dictator just like we have evolved to with this president.
BuckyBadger says
Yea that is exactly what evolved. We are under a dictator now. It is funny how a guy can be called weak and be a dictator as well. What would help everyone would if this very rhetoric would stop on both sides and people start talking rationally.
jr023 says
ww1 democrat -resident, ww 2 democrat president Korea democrat president Vietnam democrat president Bosnia and Herzegovina democrat president
seems like more than republicans. and i agree many were either necessary or unavoidable
BuckyBadger says
Vietnam was Eisenhower who was republican. The quagmire of the middle east falls on the Republicans now more than any party.
jr023 says
eisenhower sent support kennedy more support and advisers but johnson sent fighting troops
Phil Schipsi says
The unions killed the auto industry.
Patriot1 says
Bucky, You might want to check out the salaries and benefits that union officials get. They are just as corrupt as you say corporate America is. Having been a union member for many years, I would say that union leaders are the most corrupt.They sit around smoking cigars, eating big meals at a fancy hotel/restaurant while you are out on stike pounding the pavement for a nickle raise. Get a life!
BuckyBadger says
OK lets just let off the corporate executives with their million dollar salaries. Lets never blame the people running the business but the workers. Wages have been stagnant for 40 years, might want to look at the full picture and get a life yourself. Can any conservative talk without name calling or are you all a bunch of Donald Turmps?
eagle keeper says
Ok, how come my 1994 GMC 2wd pickup was made in Mexico?? The union was the reason. The company had to leave the unionized stranglehold it had on the manufacturer. The demands for ever higher wages and benefit packages drove the company South of the border. Otherwise Detroit wouldn’t be a rust bucket it is today. Proof you can’t get something for nothing just because you want it.
BuckyBadger says
Because our trade laws now allow us to screw over the American worker. The care can still be made here, the board of directors could not pay themselves so much and pay their workers instead. No one is asking for something for nothing but someone working all day in a factory shouldn’t live in poverty while his CEO is making billions. We used to value workers but I see you are more into rich people worship.
You are commenting on an old story which is proven to be completely false. There are more jobs in the service industry and companies are doing just fine. I am now selling my last business and I always paid well. I think you need to learn the difference between a business that is a shareholders vs stakeholders and how they differ in how they treat their workers.
That escalated quickly says
Unions and 50 years of democrat leadership on a local and state level
amusing_myself says
Actually yes. Federal Mogul (FM) stopped manufacturing Sealed Beams and has slowly phased out all Miniature Lamp production because they can no longer afford to pay Union Retirement salaries, current salaries, and health care. All these “costs” were rolled into the cost of each lamp which rose quarterly to the point where suppliers had enough and started purchasing overseas when the quality reached the same standards of FM.
Stop spouting off your talking points.
BuckyBadger says
You really think pensions are paid from the current companies sales? Might want to look up the word pension.
GeckoCA says
in the 50’s jobs were not sent to china.
Stan H says
“The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office found in its report on the effects of a minimum-wage increase that while 500,000 low-wage jobs might be lost as a result of raising the national minimum wage to $10.10 an hour and then indexing it to inflation, 24.5 million workers would benefit from the increase: 16.5 million directly and an additional 8 million indirectly.”
http://www.cbo.gov/publication/44995
http://www.occupydemocrats.com/states-with-boosted-minimum-wages-see-boosted-economies/
BobFromDistrict9 says
We lost those jobs to free trade agreements that shipped $20/hr jobs in this country to where they were $10/day jobs.
There is nothing we can do to compete with that other than turn the US into a third world country, or end free trade.
Please make your choice.
BTW, Post industrial society is a fantasy indulged in by those who don’t actually need to work.
The other countries of the advanced world are as unionized as we were or more, and had pay and benefits on a level competitive to us, or better.
It is third world competition, and management hired on the basis of an econ degree and zero knowledge of he company’s actual business, that is destroying America’s competitive ability.
Heather Rose says
What does wage stagnation have to do with the minimum wage? Uh, everything? I don’t have a degree in Economics, in fact, I admit I am woefully ignorant in that department, so I may be wrong, but it seems the two are similar, if not the same. Feel free to educate me otherwise.
MeanieHead says
Part of that problem was NAFTA and the Clintons.
BuckyBadger says
The problem is older than that and can’t be pinned on any one president but all of them in the last 40 years.
Stevie says
Republican Congress wanted NAFTA and voted for it.
MeanieHead says
Nope you can’t blame Congress. If Obama can blame Bush (when the Dems were in charge of Congress) and make it seem like Bush “single-handedly” ruined this country (like Obama seems more determined than ever to complete) then Clintons have to take the fall for the Republican Congress. And Obama will have to take the fall for the Republican Congress. That’s only fair and you libbies are all for fair and equal and balance and all that equality stuff. Right?
Stevie says
It’s history now. Look it up. Bet you won’t though.
Katsstud says
“Fact” doesn’t mean what you think it does Bucky, because you just choose to believe one set of propaganda over the other. Never said the workforce is the problem, but that artificial wages merely prop people up higher than their value to the business. If an owner chooses to profit share more power to them, but mandatory wages through one-size-fits-all legislation has never worked and done little to benefit those you claim to care about.
Blue collar wages have stagnated due to supply and demand genius. There is less demand in manufacturing due to movement overseas and technology improvements at home, and an elitist mentality in schools making the trades seem only applicable to losers. Supply is greater relative to jobs due to fewer options outside of the service industry and college, and fewer higher paying semi-skilled and skilled jobs. Perhaps less mouth and more intellect would help your arguments.
Phil Schipsi says
Economics uses math, but math is not the whole story. Try using logic: if the article was citing a minimum wage of $100/HR, would you, then agree with the conclusion? Do you have a sweet spot $/HR more than $15/HR but less than $100/HR?
BuckyBadger says
Math is logic which is something conservatives seem to struggle with. If an employer is paying an unlivable wage and the employee has to receive welfare who is really paying the wage of that worker? If you can’t pay a livable wage you can’t be in business. You can’t rely on the public to make up the pay you aren’t willing to. Your $100/hr argument shows no logic whatsoever.
I don’t believe there is a set amount for minimum wage that will work for everywhere in our country. My home town $9/hr will probably be considered a livable wage but that doesn’t work in Seattle, Denver or other urban areas.
Phil Schipsi says
Your arbitrary assertion: ” If you can’t pay a livable wage you can’t be in business” shows a complete lack of economic thinking. Companies pay no more than the amount that will, both, attract willing-competent workers, and leave room for profit. If a restaurant must pay a bus boy or dishwasher, $15/HR, and consequently can not make a profit, it goes out of business. The employees, some paid more than $15/HR, are then all unemployed, and possible candidates for welfare.
BuckyBadger says
The market isn’t going to go away. In fact the market will strengthen because there will be more currency in circulation. If a company goes out of business because it couldn’t afford to pay its workers anything more than slave labor someone will take its place or whatever they are selling has no market. That is how this works. Most businesses go out of business with in 3 years and labor costs aren’t usually the reason why. I have seen in my life in small business that it is better to have a strong spending class.
We have seen these same tired arguments but they don’t ever hold any water in practice. Seattle isn’t crumbling right now and other areas that have raised their minimum wage have seen their economy grow.
Phil Schipsi says
You might learn something from Tony.
Tony’s Law
“If the brick cost too much, I don’t sell the brick.
I don’t sell the brick, I don’t make money.
I don’t make money, I don’t need you.
I don’t need you, you don’t make money.
What you say? You want job or no?
I worked for Tony. I stripped the mortar from old-used bricks. Tony gathered those bricks from the Philadelphia slums. He cleared lots with fallen-down and burned-down houses. He hired ghetto kids to load the bricks on his Ford pickup. About 600 bricks per load.
My job paid approximately 1.5 cents per brick, on the average. Some bricks were more difficult and paid a little more; others, like filler bricks, less.
If I broke a brick, I got nothing for that brick.
I made about 50 cents/HR, in 1948-49, when the Minimum Wage was 90 cents/HR.
I paid for my school expenses and had spending money, with my weekly income of $2-3.00. I was happy to have that job.
Tony sold those bricks to custom builders. He made a fair living – not so great. But he was proud.
BuckyBadger says
Sound’s like you where paid a livable wage though doesn’t. Since it was below min wage, min wage must have been well above a livable wage. In 1949 min wage was doubled and all the same rhetoric that is being said here about raising the wage was said than but the 1950s wasn’t a bad time for the economy was it. How about instead of downing the workers and telling them they don’t deserve a decent wage we let this play out since it has worked out in the past.
eagle keeper says
I had a plumber come to the house the other day to fix a leak under the kitchen sink. The cost of two visits was a little over $300.00. He wasn’t wearing a suit and tie either. In fact he had on a blue shirt with the company’s logo on it. Blue collar skilled workers are doing just fine in America. It’s the whiners who don’t or won’t get off their backsides to learn a skill that upsets me. Where is it written that anyone in this world OWES you anything? Much less $15.00 an hour.
BuckyBadger says
Your one experience doesn’t negate the fact that wages are static. What they wear isn’t important. Lots of people have a skill that 40 years ago they would have been able to provide but since we don’t value our work force they now have to collect welfare. With this system I am now supplementing big corporations’ payroll from my taxes. You can be OK with that but I find that to be BS. No one working full time should have to collect welfare. Pay a liveable wage.
Scott says
What facts have you presented, I see only propaganda from you?
BuckyBadger says
How about the fact that this law has been effect for a year and all the doom and gloom predicted hasn’t happened.
Scott says
They actually have? Where do you get your information from? ·
700 restaurant employees in Seattle have lost their jobs since the $15 minimum wage ordinance went into effect earlier this year. The job losses mark the largest decline over the January-September period since the “Great Recession” in 2009. That is in sharp contrast to the rest of the state where the restaurant industry added 5,800 new jobs where there was no $15 an hour increase. The average job gain during the same period over the previous five years was almost 3,000, and over the previous three years the job gain was nearly 4,000.
BuckyBadger says
Where you get your numbers? You do know the min wage isn’t $15/hr yet right? You don’t seem to have your facts right just like many others on here. Your numbers are way off and contrived.
BuckyBadger says
https://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=1GLS
Jobs increased this year for employees in the food and drink industry. You probably listened to that FOX report that was out that cherry picked numbers from the lowest time of the year. By the end of November the numbers where the highest they had been all year.
Anthony Renta says
How about people get an education or trade. Rich CEOs and board memebers don’t own the places closing. How about lowering the minimum wage to 1979 levels so the employers can pay the people who actually work more money. I worked a minimum wage job in 1980 in the Red lobster kitchen. started at $
2.25 an hr or so. I was making 9 when I joined the Military 1 1/2 years later. Every job has an amount of money your employer can charge for your time. For example : a plumbing company charges approx 150 an hr here in NY therefore an employer can pay 40 or 50 for a good guy. How much can you charge for a person who you can train their full job in a week? Get it? I own a small business. I am able to pay my entry level tech $ 25 an hr because I can charge $ 55 for his time. Bucky what do you do for a living?
BuckyBadger says
I have an education and a trade. I am in the process of selling my own business which is a motel. You can blame the work force for what was the collapse in Detroit and ignore the millions in expenditures the board members where putting the company. Don’t have to own a public company to steal from it. Would you buy yourself a brand new car to take to get a loan from a bank if you company was failing? Well these guys all took private jets to get hand outs. But it is the no good worker to blame right?
You seem to think it is OK for someone who is making billions and pay their workforce an unlivable wage. Sorry I believe if you can’t pay livable wage you shouldn’t be in business. Just like how you charge for someone’s time I make sure the cost of staying at my motel covers the cost of my employee.
People coming on this article after it was proven to be false (business in the service industry is up) crack me up. Going to tell me “Trickle Down” economics was successful too?
That escalated quickly says
Yes and ignore the reality in front of your face which is businesses closing and people going unemployed
BuckyBadger says
Look at the job rate in Seattle right now. The job rates for these jobs grew the past year and this article proven to be completely false.
amusing_myself says
The story is centered around Family Restaurants..Perhaps you should address the article and not be so “out of place” and stupid looking.
BuckyBadger says
You are talking about an article that is very old and been proven very wrong. No wonder Trump won the republican nomination. You guys don’t know what is right and what is a lie. Keep talking like a donkey, that is what you guys do best.
amusing_myself says
You are still off topic and still smell like the end that the Donkey does not speak from.
BuckyBadger says
Yea talking about the article is off topic. Keep talking out of your backside.
BENJAMIN FRANKLIN says
Where do you get your facts from?
BuckyBadger says
I read. Something the common American doesn’t do on a daily basis anymore. This country needs to turn off the CNN and FOX news and go to the library.
BENJAMIN FRANKLIN says
I agree, however the books written today are distorted by the left and right wing. The good books are written prior to the 1960s and they are en harder to find.
BuckyBadger says
Always have to read more than one source.
BENJAMIN FRANKLIN says
I concur
Raymond59 says
You obviously didn’t take the time to read the article. The “Seattle Magazine” is hardly a bastion of conservatism.
MelAnosis says
Don’t waste your time trying to convince people like Bucky. You can look at the fools who voted to put the leaders in power in Greece and Venezuela and will understand what fools they are.
Raymond59 says
Unfortunately, the same type of fools here elected President Obama twice.
Stevie says
Because the last time “we” elected a conservative he started a war that’s cost us over 6,000 American lives, countless dead children, and a staggering bill of over a TRILLION dollars. Ya, I think I’ll still be voting for Obama if I could. Hillary will do nicly though.
MeanieHead says
You’re such an idiot.
Stevie says
Why?
MeanieHead says
Because you just are.
Stevie says
Did your school out early today?
Raymond59 says
If you look at history, there have been a number of Democrats that have been in the White House when some major wars have got started. Franklin D. Roosevelt and Lyndon B. Johnson come to mind.
Stevie says
How many where started based on lies and fabrications? How many where “pre-emptive” wars? Remember all that nonsense? Powell and his vial of “anthrax”? The Downing Street Memo? The comparisons you make are not apt.
And Benghazi?!? Really? Compare that to the Iraq death toll and cost. Again, 6,000 plus Americans, thousands of little children, and a couple of TRILLION dollars vs one guy that should have taken the troops he was offered, three times?
Raymond59 says
The Democrats (along with Republicans) who voted to support the Iraq War and rationalized that vote by making false claims about Iraq’s WMD programs – a minority of Democrats, but much over-represented in Democratic leadership councils – were responsible for allowing the Bush administration to get away with lying about Iraq’s alleged threat. There’s plenty of blame to go around (on both sides of the political aisle in the United States Congress) when it comes to the Iraq War. In the United States House of Representatives, the Democrats that voted for the Resolution authorizing Military Intervention into Iraq were: Gary Ackerman, Rob Andrews, Jim Barcia, Ken Bentsen, Shelley Berkley, Howard Berman, Marion Berry, Sanford Bishop, Rod Blagojevich, Bob Borski, Leonard Boswell, Rick Boucher, Allen Boyd, Brad Carson, Bob Clement, Bud Cramer, Joseph Crowley, Jim Davis, Peter Deutsch, Norm Dicks, Cal Dooley, Chet Edwards, Eliot Engel, Bob Etheridge, Harold Ford, Martin Frost, Dick Gephardt, Bart Gordon, Gene Green, Ralph Hall, Jane Harman, Baron Hill, Joe Hoeffel, Tim Holden, Steny Hoyer, Steve Israel, William Jefferson, Chris John, Paul Kanjorski, Patrick Kennedy, Ron Kind, Nicholas Lampson, Tom Lantos, Nita Lowey, Ken Lucas, Bill Luther, Stephen Lynch, Carolyn Maloney, Edward Markey, Frank Mascara, Jim Matheson, Carolyn McCarthy, Mike McIntyre, Michael McNulty, Martin Meehan, Dennis Moore, John Murtha, Bill Pascrell, Collin Peterson, David Phelps, Earl Pomeroy, Tim Roemer, Mike Ross, Steven Rothman, Max Sandlin, Adam Schiff, Brad Sherman, Ronnie Shows, Ike Skelton, Adam Smith, John Spratt, Charles Stenholm, John Tanner, Ellen Tauscher, Gene Taylor, Karen Thurman, Jim Turner, Henry Waxman, Anthony Weiner, Robert Wexler, Al Wynn.
Joshua Petersen says
As far as democrats vs republicans when it comes to war… saying “we’ve had war with them in office” is misleading. The reason being is the US has been at war 222 years out of 239. It’s more telling to look at the peacetimes we’ve had.
In the past 50 years, here are the peace years we’ve had…
2000 (under Clinton – Dem)
1997 (also under Clinton – Dem)
1978 (under Jimmy Carter – Dem)
1977 (under Jimmy Carter – Dem)
1976 (under Gerald Ford – Repub)
And that’s it.
Raymond59 says
“Stevie” was trying to infer that it’s been Republicans that have got the United States into wars. I correctly pointed out that there have been a least two (2) Democratic Presidents that have got the United States into wars. Franklin D. Roosevelt and Lyndon B. Johnson are just such examples. Being President is NOT a popularity contest. ANY President’s first and utmost responsibility is to protect the citizens of the United States of America from attack from ANY foreign power that might constitute a threat. Sometimes, a preemptive strike is necessary. It is well known that Franklin D. Roosevelt was looking for forcing a provocation with Nazi Germany by waging an undeclared war against the U-Boat threat in the Atlantic Ocean. There are two incidents where U-Boats attacked and sunk United States warships prior to Nazi Germany declared war on the United States, (1) 17 October 1941: U.S.S. Kearney (DD-432) escorting a convoy was attacked by U-boat off the coast of Iceland with 11 killed. (2) 31 October 1941: U.S.S. Reuben James (DD-245), an older destroyer on convoy duty west of Iceland, was sunk by U-boat with loss of 115 men. After the Japanese Empire attacked the United States (7 December 1941), Nazi Germany declared war on the United States on 11 December 1941. This was the first and only time that Adolph Hitler officially declared war against any nation before initiating hostilities. Also, there was a unpublished sequel to Mein Kampf where Hitler made it quite clear that eventually Germany would have to deal with the United States in the future. The title is “Hitler’s Second Book: The Unpublished Sequel to Mein Kampf” by Gerhard L. Weinberg. It makes fascinating reading and gets into the thinking of the most dastardly madman and maniac of the 20th Century.
Joshua Petersen says
1. Intellectual honesty has nothing to do with self up-voting. Voting up your own comments, due to the way social networking programs work, makes it easier for you to find your comment later. Upvoting yourself is effectively bookmarking it. If someone doesn’t upvote their own comment, it means it’s something they don’t feel the need to remember later.
2. As for presidents and war… They’re pretty much all bought out by the military contractors, so part makes little difference. We’ve only had 5 years of peace in the past 50. Democrat vs republican only made a difference of about 8% of the total (and one of the two democrat peacetimes were following one set up by a republican, so or could even be considered tied). Thing is, we only neighbor two allies. There are African countries that have a better record of peacetimes. It shouldn’t be that hard to have America at peace off our presidents actually wanted it.
Raymond59 says
“Intellectual honesty has nothing to do with self up-voting. Voting up your own comments, due to the way social networking programs work, makes it easier for you to find your comment later. Upvoting yourself is effectively bookmarking it. If someone doesn’t upvote their own comment, it means it’s something they don’t feel the need to remember later.” Really???? Then you obviously don’t know how to use the features that DISQUS provides its users. If you have trouble going back to your own “comments,” try ‘clicking on your profile avatar’ and when the screen comes back up, go to “Comments.” It is obvious that you haven’t been on DISQUS too long, otherwise, you would’ve already have known that.
Joshua Petersen says
Rude and snide presentation aside, that was actually a useful info. I’ve been using it for awhile, but haven’t bothered to figure out it’s details in depth (more important things to do with my time) and so was treating it’s upvoting the same way I do facebook’s, assuming similar functionality.
Raymond59 says
Then I would suggest that you set some time aside and learn how the functions work. Setting yourself up to be called on the carpet, you didn’t do yourself any favors. When I use goggle to go on Facebook, Sodahead, The Drudge Report, or any other site that I find interesting and informative stories, I will go through my Goggle History and not delete it for the History. That’s something else that you might look into. Also, that’s not meant to be as a “rude and snide presentation aside.” However, if you want to take it as such, then that’s your problem.
Joshua Petersen says
Making assumptions about someone is always rude and snide (however, to be fair, there are times when rudeness is called for, but I didn’t think I had warranted that yet.)
Sadly, I don’t have as much time to dedicate to learning every system I touch on as much as I’d like, mainly due to a very hefty schedule. But I do appreciate the advice.
Raymond59 says
If you don’t have “as much time to dedicate to learning every system I touch,” then I would advise that you might refrain and find something else to do. How about fishing?
Joshua Petersen says
I tried fishing a few times, I found it way too stressful. I prefer debating politics online. I find it much more relaxing. I’m weird that way.
Raymond59 says
Whatever.
Lisa says
My god, please don’t tell me that any of you truly believe there is ANY DIFFERENCE between these two parties? Wow.
Raymond59 says
No, there isn’t any difference between the two (2) major political parties, “Lisa.” Also, please tell me what does that have to do with me criticizing someone for “upvoting” their own comment(s)? *rolling my eyes* *shaking my head* *facepalm*
MeanieHead says
Oh don’t go back to blaming Bush. That’s so 2009. And wow a trillion dollars? That’s 2 of Obama’s vacations.
Stevie says
Pathetic response
BuckyBadger says
The comment was a response to comparison to Detroit not the article. That article above is almost complete garbage as have many that have been written before the law has taken effect. So many want to claim failure or victory before there is even a result. If there are some closures there will be some new openings if the market of Seattle demands it. People tend to forget that about the free market.
MelAnosis says
It’s the math! With low margins, a massive increase in labor costs means only one thing. And who will be hurt by those who feel they are helping the victims…….yes, the so called victims. Higher unemployment and lower tax revenues will result. It’s basic economics.
BuckyBadger says
So you think people will stop shopping? You think commerce will cease? I grew up in small business and labor cost isn’t near what they say it is. Your average Ma&Pa shop already pays above the minimum wage and they are just fine. Most of them will tell you that paying better for good employees helps keep your them as turnover is very expensive. The Right has screamed that every time the minimum wage goes up it will mean unemployment and all business will cease yet that has never happened. Usually means an increase in commerce as the best way to have a healthy economy is to create a demand and nothing does that better than having people that can afford spend money. A healthy middle and lower class is better for business, especially small business. That is basic economics.
MelAnosis says
The market determines what is best. No, commerce won’t cease and people will not stop shopping…..they will do less of it. People will eat fewer meals out if the price rises to make up for the doubling of minimum wage. Why not raise the minimum wage to $100 an hour. By your economic theory, that should really stimulate the economy. Right
Lisa says
First off, I would like to point out that there is a difference between “middle class” and “middle income” that goes beyond semantics. Two income households who can barely make ends meet due to increasing housing, fuel and food costs (inflationary) but make the average salary on paper per geographical location do not a “middle class” make. Unfortunately everyone would like to see themselves as middle class (semantics) and continue to use the moniker. When these working class people, already shopping at Walmart and Amazon for their cheap Chinese goods begin to feel the pain of an artificial wage increase in the lowest price sectors, they will buy CHEAPER goods and services since their own wages will NOT INCREASE exponentially to offset the increasing expenses. We have already seen this without a $15 minimum wage. Forget dining out when you have to pay $15/hr for child care. This reality will not create well-paid babysitters.
Historically, when prices increase, consumers adapt by adjusting to these new lifestyle changes by attempting to SAVE money on current expenses.
BuckyBadger says
The people shopping at Walmart aren’t going to feel pain when their wages go up. I don’t get where you think that a person making more money now will feel pain.
Here is what you are missing. The price for goods and services is largely set by the market and not so much dependent on the cost. A business person doesn’t set their price strictly on their cost but what the consumer will pay for their product. If the product is too expensive to provide at the cost the consumer will pay that business goes under and this little wage increase isn’t going to change that all that much. Prices aren’t going to sky rocket like so many want to say as history has shown this in the past. An increase in minimum wage will bring a slight cost to the product but it will provide spending power to lot of people and get them off government assistance as so many Walmart employees are already on.
Historically when wages increase for the majority of people in the market (call them middle class, lower class or whatever) everyone benefits. More jobs are created because people are spending money. The economy isn’t driven by those at the top but by those with the greatest numbers. If the majority of your population can’t afford to go out on an occasion you don’t have many jobs for people to do. People who don’t think a strong middle class isn’t essential to a strong economy don’t understand basic economics.
Lisa says
Oh Bucky. The people who are going to receive a wage increase are the BOTTOM EARNERS. $15 in Seattle is NOT A LIVING. These people will still be considered “poor” and the poor do not spend money to stimulate the economy; they are subsidized by those who earn more (the true middle). Middle income wages will NOT increase proportionally as a result of the minimum wage increasing since wage increases have historically lagged/stagnated in response to inflation. See many above comments for examples.
As a “business owner” I would assume you would understand many of these principles. I doubt the legitimacy of your claim.
BuckyBadger says
The people that will receive these wage increases have needs and when given a little extra money the spend it. If these people are given more than they don’t need to be on subsidies either which is better for everyone. Any money being pumped into the economy is good for it, give it to those that have needs they will pump that money into the economy almost immediately. Any spending helps to stimulate the economy.
Explain to me how a person making a little more money to buy the clothes and supplies they need doesn’t help the economy? The poor tend to not be great at saving their money and when they get a little more they tend to buy a few things they been wanting for a long time. Give a tax break to those that needed it and they spend that money, give that tax break to those who aren’t in need that money goes into a bank account. We have seen this before when they raised the minimum wage and we will see it again here.
As a business owner who relies completely on middle and lower income families (Bill Gates won’t stay at my place) I completely understand the importance of livable wages. $15 won’t get you rich but will give some families much needed breathing room and give them some spending money so maybe they can go to the movies. Not talking buying luxury homes here, just a little spending money.
Lisa says
Have you ever in your life lived on $15 an hour? I did. YEARS AGO when inflation was LESS than it is now. It was touted as a living wage in the 90s. And guess what? It wasn’t. And it won’t be for any family I know. Spending money? Are you serious? These people are receiving my tax dollars to pay for their Obamacare and their foodstamps. A low end job WAS NEVER MEANT TO SUPPORT ANYONE EXCEPT A HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT LIVING WITH HIS PARENTS.
BuckyBadger says
I have had several jobs in my early 20s making less than $15 and I know friends who live on less than $30K a year. Before my family got into small business my father made about that in a machine shop and raised a family. Yes we where poor but we still spent money. When he got a bonus he probably spent on it something the family needed but that money is still being put right into circulation. Giving a little to the masses helps the economy far better than just handful getting a lot and putting that money into a trust fund. The people with very little spend their money and put it back into circulation which in turn boosts the economy and creates jobs.
“No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.” (1933, Statement on National Industrial Recovery Act). This idea that these jobs where only suppose to be after school jobs is a complete fabrication by the right. No business can rely on H.S. students alone and with the corporate chains taking over every job from working in Dinners to Hardware Stores to everything else we are losing all our good jobs to be what you would say is only for High School students.
Lisa says
Bucky, these are unskilled service jobs. Their skilled counterparts in other service industries, making $15 now will not receive raises. I will not be receiving a raise as new labor costs are passed on to my employer at the bottom (which is the majority of labor). I will be paying more for goods and services. I will be paying more in taxes to subsidize the costs passed on to employers in addition to the subsidies for health care and food stamps (since you still can’t earn a living at $15/hr). Current $15/hr jobs (a veterinary assistant or a nurse’s aide, for example) are now paid at the same rate as a DISHWASHER. The dishwasher does not have any skills and did not have to pay for education to get where they are. A dishwashing position is something that one does BEFORE attaining other skills for gainful employment; it is not a career. The veterinary assistant and the nurse’s aide will not be receiving a 50% pay increase like the dishwasher (since historically this has NEVER occurred after a minimum wage increase; these people will receive tiny incremental wage hikes until all leave and are turned over for a new round of lower starting pay so that employers can adapt to increased bottom labor costs). You now have skilled bottom labor at a great disadvantage to unskilled labor based on education costs and job responsibilities and it will take years before balance is achieved. In a field where labor is cut constantly, this will mean that an RN will have to work with less staff since employers will cut costs to maintain the balance between labor and liability (can you tell I work in healthcare and know a bit about this one?). And let me tell you, they always cut labor. There are no “safe” nurse to patient ratios in WA state. This goes far beyond dining out. This is going to affect people in every sector.
BuckyBadger says
You do know they aren’t putting the min wage straight to $15 an hour right? This is being done incrementally. Seems like everyone hasn’t even read the law or the research that went into it.
You are wrong about the raises as you haven’t studied the history of raising wages at the bottom. Other sectors might have to pay better as their wage won’t be as competitive for the skill they want to get. Also you don’t seem to understand that prices aren’t set on labor cost as much as they are set on market demand. If the consumer won’t pay a higher cost they won’t raise their price. As a business person I charge as much as I can get and still fill my rooms, not just to cover my cost. The market will sort itself out and this will be injecting more money to the low end earners who will spend that money. Go look back to after the depression and see how our country dug itself out.
I am very tired of every one calling other people’s jobs unskilled. On this thread alone I have seen a wide range of jobs be called as unskilled and they don’t deserve a living wage. At this rate we will have only a handful of professions deemed as real jobs that deserve a real wage. Dealing with people who think they are better than you all day is a skill in my eyes. Working in a factory is a skill, I have done it. Again if you can’t pay a livable wage, you can’t be in business. The world will not end in Seattle and commerce will not cease. If history is any indicator this will strengthen the economy by injecting more money into circulation allowing other professions to get more money.
Lisa says
If you were to do a simple google search, you’d find:
Unskilled Labor
“Unskilled labor does not require workers to have special training or skills. The jobs that require unskilled labor are continually shrinking due to technological and societal advances. Jobs that previously required little or no training now require training. For example, labor that was once done manually now may be assisted by computers or other technology, requiring the worker to have technological skills. Examples of remaining unskilled labor occupations generally include farm laborers, grocery clerks, hotel maids, and general cleaners and sweepers.”
Skilled Labor
“Skilled labor refers to labor that requires workers who have specialized training or a learned skill-set to perform the work. These workers can be either blue-collar or white-collar workers, with varied levels of training or education. Very highly skilled workers may fall under the category of professionals, rather than skilled labor, such as doctors and lawyers. Examples of skilled labor occupations are: electricians, law enforcement officers, computer operators, financial technicians, and administrative assistants. Some skilled labor jobs have become so specialized that there are worker shortages.”
I’ve been living in the world awhile and I’ve seen the effects of stagnating wages vs inflation. Inflation is an area that you seem to lack basic understanding of. The incremental minimum wage increase (I work in an industry that is affected and indeed understand that we are not going to $15 immediately as this was part of the bill THAT I READ) is thought to adjust for some inflationary increases in recent years (housing, food, fuel are all that matter here but these are not used by the fed to calculate inflation, they use the price of common goods like toilet paper) but since raising the minimum wage has not historically brought about any change in living standards due to INFLATION, this will only offset cost on a tiny scale. Do you not see that once prices rise related to the higher costs of labor that the same amount of money gets you LESS? Again, I don’t believe you’re a business owner. I think perhaps your daddy is one and you have no idea what you’re talking about.
BuckyBadger says
Your condensing tone is typical of the right. My Daddy was a business owner and I am myself. I fully understand inflation and I also understand the problem with wage stagnation this country has faced for the last 40 years, this is why I stopped being an engineer and got into small business. Raising the minimum wage has in the past shown to help wages for all professions as wages can be competitive as well.
You need to take a look at several companies who don’t view their labor force as unskilled like Quickstop and Starbucks but pay them fairly and how they perform vs their competitors. They have shown you can pay and it will not only not cost you money but you will end up saving because you invested into your employees. I was taught by my parents that if you treat your employees well and pay them fairly they will take care in their work and care about your business. Treat your employees like they are unskilled and unskilled work is what you will get.
Every time there is a fight for the labor force the right talks doom and gloom but their warnings NEVER happen. Millions is spent on rhetoric to scare people into thinking that prices will sky rocket and all businesses will close. They keep pounding that these people don’t deserve this wage while those on top get fat. This never happens. What happens is that consumer confidences rises as more money is being spent by those in need. You can think that it is ok for Walmart to have their employees have to take public assistance while they make billions but I see something very wrong with that.
Raymond59 says
Well, “the market may demand it,” but the people that will be opening and running those businesses will still have to pay $15.00/hour for the pay. That’s called “bearing the cost.” That’s of course, unless the City of Seattle decides to revoke their own mandated $15.00/hour Minimum Wage Law that they themselves imposed in those same businesses that have either closed and/or are now closing. The “Free Market” only exists so long as the market WILL BEAR IT. If Government “mandates” (“imposes”) additional rules and regulations on businesses, then business costs go up. There’s a big difference between “demanding” something and “having to bear something.” Remember (as the old saying goes), “Money doesn’t grow on trees.” As someone that I’ve had a previous discussion on this subject at another time, businesses DON’T just go “exploding in revenue.” If you don’t believe me, try opening up a business and find out for yourself. About 75% of businesses go under after the first three (3) years in operation. There are a variety of reasons for it, but sometimes it is just that market cannot bear the costs incurred and/or visa versa. Better yet, try taking a business management course and get a better understanding on how a business is managed.
BuckyBadger says
I am in business for myself and been in small business all my life (real small business where I have 3 employees) and I already pay what is being said here and all I have is a small motel. You do know that the minimum wage is being increased over two years right? Revenue won’t explode but it will grow which is why they are doing this incrementally. Any business shutting down right now is either a corporate chain that doesn’t want to deal with this or someone that was already failing. No person who relies on this as their main source of income is just going to pack in, think about it.
When managing a business the biggest cost from employees is turnover. If you don’t pay them you get high turnover, something I learned about 25 years ago in the bar bushiness. Invest in your employees because they are a huge part of your business. If you owned a small business yourself you would realize that you rely on the middle class being able to come and spend money at your establishment. My best years where the 90s and the last 5 years when the middle class was actually making something. The rich aren’t staying at my motel but the average fisherman loves it.
In past history when the minimum wage has been increased it has been met with the exact same resistance but has always shown that it helps grow the economy. A healthy middle class is vital to an economy, always has been that way.
Raymond59 says
Well, “A healthy middle class is vital to an economy,” but that same “middle class” is slowing shrinking and being destroyed by National Domestic Economic policies from both major political parties. I’m personally not against the minimum wage per se. However, doing it in one broad, quick stroke where businesses can’t quickly absorb it does no one any good. Why do you think the Federal Government (when it does pass a minimum wage increase) does it in increment? Because it allows businesses to absorb it over time. Running a motel is one thing. Try running a multi-million or multi-billion dollar a year business for a number of years and then come back to me and then (maybe, just maybe) you can claim some expertise in running a business and having to deal with the day to day headaches.
BuckyBadger says
I am not worried about the multi-million dollar companies. You don’t think I deal with day to day headaches. Do you owe a multi-million dollar business?
This isn’t being done in one stroke but incrementally. Smaller companies (under 500) won’t have to be $15 for years, something like 2021.
Raymond59 says
I was referring to the City of Seattle. Obviously missed that point.
BuckyBadger says
The city is putting this in incrementally.
Raymond59 says
Not from what I heard.
BuckyBadger says
You heard wrong. Companies under 500 employees don’t have to be $15 until 2021.
Raymond59 says
Whatever, “Bucky.”
BuckyBadger says
Google it, you will find it to be true. http://murray.seattle.gov/minimumwage/#sthash.Kn62xl7I.dpbs
Raymond59 says
I do think that the minimum wage law should be directed from Washington because it is a Federal Law. As I’ve said previous, this is only a political tool that’s being used by the localities to garner votes. That’as all it is. If you can’t see that, then you never will.
BuckyBadger says
There is a minimum federal law but that doesn’t mean local governments can’t put one in as well. It isn’t exclusively a federal thing nor should it be. I think it should be dictated more locally because the cost of living isn’t flat across the country. The livable wage in rural areas isn’t the same as it is in New York or Seattle. There needed to be a raise because I am tired of supplementing the income of workers through my taxes because their employer doesn’t want to pay a livable wage. That is the Walmart plan, they won’t pay their workers so they have to apply for assistance yet the company’s revenue is ever growing. If this wasn’t happening a law wouldn’t be needed.
Raymond59 says
Cite me the Federal Law that allows cities to pass their own minimum wage law.
BuckyBadger says
Are you telling me States can’t make their own laws? So you don’t believe in local governing and state rights at all? Might want to talk to more conservatives because they are all about state rights and being governed on a more local level with a smaller federal government. Show me the law that says States don’t have a right to pass a minimum wage law. That is what you need, not something saying they can. This makes more sense on a local level as I stated, the cost of living isn’t the same everywhere. Local governments all over the country have their own Minimum Wage laws. Seattle has one in place already. Most would say that when it comes to matters of welfare, public assistance and business that State laws are better than using the Federal Government. (http://www.lawhelp.org/resource/the-differences-between-federal-state-and-loc)
Walmart isn’t raising their wages, that is the problem. They are just letting their employees go on welfare so the state has supplement their income.
Raymond59 says
I DID NOT make the claim that States don’t have the right to make their own laws. You’re putting words in my mouth. Don’t do that, it is considered rude. I said (for your benefit), ” Cite me the Federal Law that allows cities to pass their own minimum wage law over the Federal Law.” Is that too hard? Make the citation.
BuckyBadger says
You where stating that states or local governments don’t have the right to a minimum wage law which they absolutely do. Not only do they have the right it makes more sense for it be done on a local level.
Good for Walmart, still way to low and don’t think they did that all on their own, this was a response because of the protests and the push for a higher minimum wage.
Raymond59 says
Make the citation.
SeilnoigileR says
Aren’t all you righties about state and local rights? Now you’re not when it doesn’t fit your agenda. So sad.
MeanieHead says
Not true. The franchise owners are being sucked into the “over 500” crowd, which is unfair.
BuckyBadger says
Even companies over 500 people have a few years to get up to $15/hr. Do your research.
MeanieHead says
No they don’t. That was on the news the other night and why the franchise owners are pissed.
BuckyBadger says
No one has to be $15 in April. Read the law, they are putting this in incrementally with all companies. Different timelines for some but NO ONE has to be at $15 right away. For a guy you tells me to do my research you don’t even know the basics of this law you are discussing. I already provided you a link that shows the time line yet you still insists in believing something that isn’t true.
Greg Takach says
@BoxingIsLife:disqus Your fleabag motel is not necessarily representative of all the businesses that will be affected in Seattle. Oh and the toilet is clogged in room 9, can you send your mom or sister to unclog it as it’s likely they’re your “employees”.
BuckyBadger says
Another person who can’t argue the points of the conversation so he has to attack the person. Actually my business is exactly what the right pretends to care about but don’t in all reality.
Greg Takach says
@BoxingIsLife:disqus Actually, I attacked your business and also made a point in the conversation. Don’t hold up your business as representative of all business in Seattle that will be affected by the wage increase. You’ve made it clear that your business doesn’t have the same expenditure for employees that food service does. I own daycares and employ from 3 to 10 times as many employees as you at each location. Employee salaries avg in the neighborhood of $12/hr. So a modest business of mine with 15 employees (10full, 5part) will see an increased expenditure (when the wage increase reaches $15) of $2700/wk. That’s $10800 per month. For a center that size, that eliminates my profit margin and then some. To adjust I would have to increase tuition rates by around 50%. I would lose so many customers and would be sending those new $15/hr wage earners to the unemployment lines in large numbers. So, all the snarkiness about your business aside, your business is not even close to being representative of the businesses that will be harmed by doubling the minimum wage…and isn’t it ironic that I’m only talking about a $3 difference for my employees. When it’s a minimum wage server who makes more with tips, it will still be a $7.50 increase to their salary.
BuckyBadger says
Doubling the minimum wage? Your businesses isn’t in Seattle is it? Minimum wage in Seattle isn’t $7.50 and it isn’t going straight to $15 dollars now is it? Lets stick to the facts because I am tired of arguing with people who don’t even understand the law or the current situation in Seattle.
You are already in compliance for a business of your size if you are paying $12.00 and will only have to be to $12.50 by Jan 1, 2016. That is just a $.50 raise over two years. Would you not have given that to your employees by that time or do you not give raises for loyalty and hard work? I don’t think you will have to double your tuition to pay an extra $0.50/hr by 2016.
Here is the part you are missing. Your clientele will grow as more people will be able to afford your services and you will be able to raise your rates a bit. We hear this complaint every time the minimum wage is raised but every time these doomsday stories never come about. If you can’t afford to pay a livable wage you can’t afford to be in business.
Also I have run several small businesses in my time. We have had a bar, a restaurant and a motel. I grew up doing this all my life and understand the importance of paying good people to do good work. You want to continue on the bare minimum you will always live on edge of being out of business as your service won’t be as good as your competitors. You will also be in a constant flux of turnover which cost way more than paying reliable good people to do the work, something many business owners realize when it is too late.
BuckyBadger says
Also did some number crunching and like all others you are high on your estimate even if they where forcing you to $15/hr this year (which they aren’t).
So not only is your opening argument degrading my business and my workers but your 2nd if full of misinformation and exaggeration of numbers based of this misinformation. Don’t worry I am used to it as almost everyone here thinks every company has to be $15 by tomorrow (no business does) and you seem to think $7.50 is the current minimum wage in Seattle which it is not. Your story is thin my friend.
SeilnoigileR says
Are all conservatives so mean spirited and vile?
Joshua Petersen says
Actually, the Seattle Magazine is fairly corporatist. It pretty much IS Seattle’s bastion of conservatism. If you want the definately non-conservative news source in the Seattle area, you read the Stranger.
Also, Resturants in Seattle are doing better than they have in practically forever. This whole “minimum wage is hurting them” thing was the result of Rush Limbaugh giving a story on the subject before the actual numbers were out. (He guessed what the numbers would be, assuming from his own economic ideals, that he’d be in the general ballpark. He wasn’t.) The thing is, everybody is listening to Rush’s tall-tale instead of the cold-hard facts… that resturants are doing great (in fact, a number are struggling to find enough staff to handle the increased demand.)
The funny thing is… when customers have more money to spend, they tend to spend more money, which means more business & profit. Funny how that works.
The conservative media is blasting Rush’s story like crazy either because A. They believe it, or B. they’re afraid about the actual truth of the situation getting out.
brizad says
This is how ignorant people like you are. These are very small restaurants and dive bars. They don’t have CEOs or board members. The one owner can barely afford too pay the bills as it is. When you are already having problems paying the bills an overnight 25-40% overhead increase is too much for many businesses to handle.
BuckyBadger says
I have been in small business all my life. My family has run a motel, a cafe and a bar in the past 25 years. I know what labor costs are and what they mean to profit margins. I also know that most people like us already pay far above the minimum wag. Paying for good employment will always better than paying cheaply and getting constant turnover.
To compare Seattle to what happened in Detroit is silly which was what my comment was about. This won’t destroy all business as we know it. It will probably make the economy there stronger as more people will be able to shop.
Poorfooluare says
Clueless!!!!!
BuckyBadger says
You put up such a great argument. I am sure you know a lot about small business. I am sure you will tell me giving tax cuts to the wealthy will create more jobs too.
Scott says
Poor people don’t create jobs except at welfare offices. Yes, tax cuts to the wealthy create jobs through their investments. 101 Econ.
BuckyBadger says
Don’t even argue this anymore. Trickle down economics is only sold to morons who don’t understand the economy. Arguing trickle down economics is like telling me the world is flat.
You don’t create jobs just because you have money other than maybe some housekeepers. Give a business money and they will just put it in the bank to invest for themselves. Give them a demand and they will fill that demand. They don’t need money to invest and create jobs, they already have money. If money was all they needed to create jobs they wouldn’t need any more tax breaks because they have most of the wealth already. With no demand there is no reason to hire workers. Businesses don’t just go into business because they have money and want to give it away watching people work. We go into business to gain wealth.
Go back to when this country built its economy and tell me it was tax breaks that built it. They paid far higher rates ton those days than today. If there is no demand there is no product to sell. Give the masses a tax break and better wages and there will be more demands and wants.
Scott says
1. How much do you pay your lowest paid worker?
2. What is the profit margin of your business?
3. Are you the owner of your “Family Business” or are you the Fredo of the family due to your OWS attitude?
4. What is your role at the business?
You were the one who brought up your family so give us some details.
BuckyBadger says
Stating my business is no reason to open my books, especially someone who doesn’t seem to understand the details of this law, wants to throw out verbal jabs and doesn’t seem to understand the basics of economics.
I am the owner and my profits are between myself, my accountant and the government. The newest girl will usually start out making between $10 and $12 depending on how the interview goes (that is at least $15 in Seattle, avg rent in my town is $400). I contract on the side as a software engineer so my role is to over see the business and I live on site managing it. Not getting rich but I don’t have to answer to anyone either.
Scott says
Sounds like you are a hypocrite to me. Why doesn’t she start out at $15? Your cost of living excuses is nothing more than that. You remind me of the union thugs at walmart that pay people minimum wage ($7-9) to protest walmart that they don’t pay $15. You are right not to answer my other questions. Because I would prove you wrong using you and your own business as an example. You are pure ideology and very short on facts. This is our last conversation.
BuckyBadger says
Says the guy who thinks that the min wage in Seattle right now is $15 and that there are less jobs both of which are lies. You can’t even get your stats right and you call me a hypocrite. It is no wonder Trump is doing as well as he is, he has people like you to support him.
I never once said that min wage should be $15 for every where in the country. I have said over and over you should be paying a livable wage and that could be $15 in one area and less in others. The only thing you proved is that you can’t get facts right and don’t understand economics Mr Trickle Down.
BuckyBadger says
You also have never proved anything but talk BS. Not one fact brought up by you. Show me your numbers that service employment went down in Seattle this year, I showed mine proving you wrong. Yea there is a reason you can’t support your claim.
Joshua Petersen says
Actually, restaurants in Seattle have been thriving. There was a tall-tale told by Rush Limbaugh about it, and everybody’s buying it without checking out the actual numbers (the restaurants closing vs restaurants opening numbers looks better than it has in a long time). Everybody in Washington is learning that, surprise surprise, when customers have more money to spend, they spend more money, which means more profits. With the $15 wage hike, many restaurants are finding they have to hire more staff just to keep up with the demand.
bizshop says
Source? I have not heard any facts supporting any surge in demand in restaurants……. Quite the opposite in fact. Do you have any examples of a restaurant having to add staff to meet this increased demand?
Joshua Petersen says
The Seattle city Government Office of Economic Development is reporting that things are going well. The website (Seattle.gov) is a little outdated though… it’s usually about 2 years behind, actually. 😛 The main office has more up-to-date data, you can call them if you like. Or if, you’re like me, you can just go to the library where they store the records and look them up yourself (it’s amazing how many people don’t realize their city’s public records can generally be found at the library. Ten minutes in those can get you twice as much information that’s significantly more accurate than a year online reading articles.)
MeanieHead says
Probably not. Unless it’s some liberal unicorn-sparkly-fart magazine.
brizad says
That’s the argument of people that don’t understand inflation. Try again.
Joshua Petersen says
Your response is the one that’s indicative of someone that doesn’t understand inflation. Inflation is NOT on a 1-to-1 ratio with minimum wage. You’re forgetting to take into account cost of production, facilities, advertising, profit margin, maintenance, meeting codes, and much much more of cost. Paying staff is only a portion of the cost of any item. Yes, there’s direct connected inflationary force from increasing minimum wage, but not only is it minimal, there are also indirect deflationary forces connected as well that, depending on the business model on use, can partially counteract or even completely surpass the inflationary effect. The “you don’t understand inflation” argument against minimum wage is only made by those ignorant of macroeconomics.
MeanieHead says
Listen. I can get a IRS refund and be cash happy and spend like a drunken sailor. And then ummmmmmm reality hits. Do you see where I’m going with this, Joshua? Short-term cash happiness doesn’t last. Eventually things catch up to you.
Joshua Petersen says
I see what you’re trying to imply, but what you’re actually saying strengthens my point. When consumers have a long-term cash increase in their pay, such as increasing minimum wage, they’ll spend a bit more sloppily, but since it’s not short term, they’ll keep on doing it, it’s a lifestyle change at that point, which means more regulars for business.
Greg Takach says
And small business may be able to absorb the increased expenditure at first but it will catch up to them.
Joshua Petersen says
Actually, mathematically speaking, profits will outstrip increased expenditures over time. Profits increase exponentially while expenditures increase only linearly.
Greg Takach says
That may be so as a general principal and in a vacuum. Disregarding economic conditions (staying in the vacuum of your theological world) consider that the wage increase is staged and that most small business owners don’t maintain a large capitol reserve. So when the increased wage puts businesses in the black they will only be able to sustain for so long before they take those options available to them (raise prices, lower quality products, etc). That’s not a recipe for exponential increases in profit as you suggest. They will be forced to absorb the increases in expenditure (staged wage hikes) while seeing either decreases or stagnation in profit. Those that serve the least affluent will be affected the most as the price for their product will be the least flexible. So who loses yet again? Both the businesses in the poorer neighborhoods and those they serve. But don’t worry too much, all of those new $15/hr wage earners and the rest of us will see our tax dollars being used for urban redevelopment and small minority owned business grants to “fix” this problem. But I’m sure that won’t effect how much they spend in their local economies, these types of best intentioned programs never have consequences.
Joshua Petersen says
You really need to look beyond immediate effects. You’re still repeating the same mantra, just in different words, “higher wages cost employers more money.” Yes, I get that. It’s obvious, and I’ve admitted it. Yet, you repeating it using different words doesn’t change the fact that isn’t all there is too it.
Every employee is ALSO a customer to someone else. If company A is selling products at rock bottom prices with only minimal profit, and they’re paying all their employees minimum wage, and they’re catering to the poorest of society (who will also all be making minimum wage), and minimum wage goes up, here’s the result:
Costs: # of workers X minimum wage increase. (~ 5 for a small cafe)
Profits: (# of original customers (~250 for a small cafe) + increase in customers due to those who could not previously afford being able to afford (~slightly below percentage increase in average wage due to inflation) ) X increased willingness for expenditures due to increased income from minimum wage increase X
So factoring out and simplifying
So increase in costs is [small number] X [wage increase]
Increase in profits is [wage increase]X[existing customers] + [wage increase customers]X[wage increase.
This is why when minimum wage goes up, small businesses get a huge influx of customers and increased profits. It’s simple math. You’re looking at the increase in costs and completely ignoring the increase in profits. Money doesn’t just “go away” when spent, it changes hands, and it’s not how much money is in the economy that decides how strong that economy is, it’s how often it changes hands. If there was only $5 in an entire economy, but everybody spent it the moment they got it (say all expenditures were preplanned and digitally carried out), you could run a multi-trillion dollar economy off that $5. However, if you have an economy that had a trillion dollars but everyone refused to spend at all, no money would trade hands and the economy would be worthless and worse than stagnant. Minimum wage increases increase rate of transfer, and that always boosts related economies.
Greg Takach says
Funny, your same old mantra of the “ripple effect” where increased wages equals increased profits rings hollow with me. It never plays out that way. It’s a push for most businesses and people, except for the most vulnerable. I’m not saying that there is to be wide spread unemployment and mass business closures. There will however be an effect on low wage earners seeking employment (and now not finding it) and thin profit margin competitive businesses. So some folks see a slight increase in earnings while a smaller number of other folks are dramatically and negatively affected.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/03/16/we-are-seeing-the-effects-of-seattles-15-an-hour-minimum-wage/
E - Stun says
Here’s where you’re wrong. Those people are not forced to buy from small businesses. They will take their $15/hour and make it go as long as they can. This looks like buying from the cheapest stores, usually a national chain or from Amazon, Alibaba, or other online outlets. Small businesses will literally put themselves out of business with $15/hour minimum wage. There is no law to force minimum wage workers to buy local. Would you care to legislate that too?
Finrod Felagund says
I’m a mathematician and it’s clear from your statements here that you know nothing about mathematics. “Profits increase exponentially”? In what fantasy world?
Joshua Petersen says
Well, if you consider Earth a fantasy world, then Earth.
Also, I find it sucpicious you call yourself a mathematician and don’t understand exponents. (Out of curiosity, were you limiting your concept of exponentially to round numbers, or were you allowing for smaller exponents such as 1.075?) Exponential merely describes a trend and the pattern of the curve, and it should be obvious that economics can often act in exponential ways. Stock market inflations, new-industry booms, and more can follow exponential curves until they reach market capacity.
Finrod Felagund says
I think you’re presuming the existence of an economy of scale that may or may not exist. Without it, all of that doesn’t work that way.
Joshua Petersen says
I think you just aren’t aware of the scale a healthy economy is capable of.
maskedghoul says
they’re just kind of assuming the working class are all drunken vagrants that will blow any penny that falls into their pockets on their hookers and booze, instead of, you know, putting that money where it’s supposed to be, paying off credit cards, cars, grocery bills etc…
Poorfooluare says
Based on what stats. Nobody is hiring more because wage spike!!! Lost!!!!
Joshua Petersen says
Go back a few of my posts. I already posted the stats. On the flip side, I haven’t seen anyone (not even the original article writer) link to statistics showing the minimum wage was hurting the economy; it’s all just here-say (and no, opinion articles and news stories that just share the commentator’s opinions don’t count as actual statistics, or them walking and talking to 3 people and then saying “1 out of 3 people…”.)
lairdp says
The same group of people have been making the same claims whenever workers try to get a better deal. Weekends were going to destroy America. Outlawing slavery would destroy America. Outlawing child labor would destroy America. Women voting would destroy America. You get the idea. Basically, anything that someone doesn’t like is predicted to “destroy America” and it turns out that such claims are always wrong.
Alan Sheedy says
Here’s the reality… you try to force the rich owners/ceos to pay more than they WANT and they’ll shut it down and walk away. Like the governor of New York raising taxes on millionaires. So many of them left the state there was LESS tax revenue. Despite this fact, he celebrated Rush Limbaugh leaving as though his ” plan ” worked. Margaret Thatcher said ” The problem with socialism is you eventually run out of other people’s money “. If you don’t like working for the man, open your own restaurant. But here’s a little warning. The founder of Subway said if he had to start that business under the current taxes and regulations, there wouldn’t BE a Subway. Now where would we be without Jered?
BuckyBadger says
I will take the risk of them shutting down and walking away. Opens up the market for someone new to come in, someone who might invest in their employees. I have been involved in small business my whole life. There has been a lot of rhetoric that its harder for start ups because of new regulations and taxes but the fact is it is harder because guys like Subway don’t have to play by the same rules. They are allowed tax cuts the real small business isn’t because their revenue isn’t at that class. It is a challenge when the big corporate chains get all the breaks and can create monopolies leaving no place for the small business to do break into the market.
The problem with unchecked capitalism is that it will eat itself whole. Big Businesses can’t be allowed to set all rules as they won’t do what is best for everyone. If you keep taking from the working man you will run out of money real quick as that isn’t a very deep pool. Have a great night.
Alan Sheedy says
Extremely good point about unchecked capitalism. It would be like the old west without a sheriff. Thank you.
Tyler Roark says
Huh, your talking about the auto industry. Not the restaurant industry. I work 2 jobs. So can everyone else. 3-18-15
BuckyBadger says
Another that the point. The original comment was comparing Detroit to Seattle which I was showing is ridiculous.
MeanieHead says
It’s coming.
BuckyBadger says
When it doesn’t will you actually take an objective look at why you where wrong?
FAS says
I thought this story was centered around the new minimum wage and how it affects the restaurant owners in Seattle? Are not most of the restaurant owners, small business owners? I don’t thinks most of them are “Rich CEOs” and have “Board Members.”
BuckyBadger says
I was responding to a comment that was saying Seattle was going to be like Detroit. The comment I responded to said he is seeing the same thing in Seattle as he did in Detroit so I proposed the my question as I don’t think it was minimum wage that brought down the car industry in Detroit.
sloth says
How many restaurant owners have private planes or get bailouts?
BuckyBadger says
Another guy how doesn’t understand this was a response to the person saying that Seattle is starting to look like Detroit. I was making fun of that statement.
KB says
In the case of Detroit, try 50 years of political power brokers stealing from the producers and giving to those who did not produce. Have you seen Detroit lately? Literally half the city is falling down due to neglect and lack of funds (the producers left and the non-producers won’t leave)
Joseph N Wanda Brooks says
Bucky, PLEASE! STOP using the word “than” when you mean “then”…it’s driving me crazy!!
BuckyBadger says
If you have to argue grammar and not the point of the discussion you know you don’t have a counter point.
DeanIverson says
yup, they call it “capitalism” nothing more than STEALING and SLAVE DRIVING
greedy twatts, rid the world of them we can live in peace and prosperity, get rid of them instead of sending innocent troops to go murder innocent for their greed
it WILL happen one way or another eventually anyways so why not do it now and salvage what we can?
Christina Mowatt says
Most restaurant owners are not millionaires! This policy won’t hurt the rich. It will hurt the small business owners.
BuckyBadger says
Like so many others you missed the point of what I was saying here. I was responding to a person comparing this Detroit which was a totally situation completely. This won’t hurt small business owners. This article is very old and isn’t even accurate.
darrell_b8 says
“stealing”?? That’s the socialist way; you accumulate wealth in socialist societies by plunder; in capitalist societies you EARN it by providing goods and services that the masses are willing to PAY you for……
BuckyBadger says
When you are paying yourself millions in bonuses while your company is having to do call backs you aren’t earning your money. Go ahead and worship these guys but not one of them started anything on their own.
Lucy says
Small businesses are not as efficient (meaning they are less likely to sell dogmeat in their burgers than McDonald’s), on their other costs. So more of their costs are in supplies, which they do not have a lot of bargaining power over, and labor. They have a very difficult time passing their costs onto their customers who can just go eat elsewhere that can sell low quality goods (that people still will pay a lot of money for) for cheaper. So the first sign of stress in an economy would be the small business sector. They will go under before the big and medium sized players will. Do workers deserve a living wage? Probably. But at the same time it is going to take down the marginal businesses that employ a lot of people. Catch-22. There are inflationary pressures in the economy with regards to costs but deflationary pressures with regards to consumer incomes, and only the companies with large warchests will be able to survive in a leaner financial environment. And even then some whales will fall. Some small businesses will survive and thrive but many less successful ones that people are quite fond of will fail.
Small family restaurants tend not to be large corporations. These are no indications in the article that this is about the big business sector. Many small businesses tend to barely break even. They are highly cost sensitive. Also their failure is a sign that the middle class is itself under pressure, since it is the middle class with disposable income that keeps most of these places in business and it seems that they are no longer able to sustain their favorite digs. It is likely not just a story about the wages, but also a story about the stagnant income of their customers. Only the bottom is getting a wage boost at this point, the income increases likely haven’t trickled up the food chain if these businesses are under stress.
BuckyBadger says
Lucy, my families first business was a small cafe that opened from 6-2. No we couldn’t compete with McDonald’s with prices but we could beat them with customer service. This was the first business where we discovered we have to pay our cook so we can have great food that will fill the business. The waitresses worked off tips but they wouldn’t get much for tips if the food and service didn’t make people want to come back. You beat the big corporations by being better at customer service and you have better customer service because you hire better people. Pinching your employees is the worse way to beat big busyness because if you don’t pay better you won’t get anything on your investment. Anyone who has been successful in small business knows this.
For the overall economy yes this is the boost for the bottom of the wage earners. Those people will immediately pump that money into the economy as they have needs. No way better way to pump money into the economy. Sorry but trickle down down’t work.
This article has proven to be false. It came out before the law was even in place and making false claims as why some companies might have shut down. Seattle is not seeing a loss of business if you look at the facts right now. All the horror the right is saying would happen, hasn’t. This article was old and a propaganda piece from the start. It made assumptions without the facts. Time to look at the facts.
John Fawcett says
Spare me! I don’t see many Rich CEO’s and Board Members operating Seattle restaurants. When liberal nazi councilmen decide they can make feel-good decisions that wipe out businesses and put tens of thousands of people out of work, who benefits? Certainly union workers do for a little while because the minimum wage drives up all wages (secret: that’s the plan!), at least until those raises drive the employers out of business or out of town. Bureaucrats: leave our economy alone. The best you can do to help the economy is to BUTT OUT!
BuckyBadger says
Oh another troll who doesn’t understand the economy. Why not look at the actual employment numbers before you talk?
BuckyBadger says
Has the employment of restaurant and service employees in Seattle gone up o down in the last year? Do some research before you talk.
BuckyBadger says
I don’t see the rich CEO’s working restaurants in Seattle which was my point. My point was also was this law wouldn’t hurt employment in this industry and it hasn’t. In fact employment in the food and beverage industry in Seattle has gown. The best thing for the economy is for you conservatives who don’t recognize facts is too butt out.
SeilnoigileR says
“liberal nazi”. The jokes just write themselves. When workers make more, they spend more and the businesses make more. Trickle down is a failure.
eagle keeper says
It’s their money and their company. In the free enterprise system we live in that is their choice. So how is that any of your business? You want to be a fat cat?? Well in this country you can work your self to death, but think of all that money someone will be fighting over once you are gone.
BuckyBadger says
You missed the point. To compare this to Detroit is a dumb comparison. Sure they can do whatever they want but don’t blame the workers for the fall of these companies when these guys are the reason the company tanked.
Scott M. McDonald says
Did you read the article? A restaurant turns over $700,000 annually, with a 4% profit of $28,000 per year? Did you see that? Which rich CEO stealing what “millions”?!
BuckyBadger says
Missed the point of my comment. I was making fun of the guy saying that Seattle will become Detroit because of this law.
That escalated quickly says
Yes because all business owners are rich CEOs
I guess you never heard the term “Mom and Pop Shop”
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Anthony Keuler says
I CAN’T BELIEVE YOU COMPARED SEATTLE TO DETROIT LOL.DO YOU LIVE IN SEATTLE? I DO AND IT’S FAR FROM DETROIT YOU IGNORANT FOOL.READ MY CAPS YOU FOOL.WASHINGTON STATE IS ONE OF THE RICHEST STATES IN THE UNION THAT HAS A GDP THAT ECLIPSES MICHIGAN’S TWO FOLD.SO BEFORE YOU SAY DUMB THINGS DO COME VISIT SEATTLE IN AWE OF OUR ROBUST ECONOMY AND GET A DAMN CLUE BOY.
sallyann says
3% unemployment?
Amy Larson says
I too am concerned but not willing to throw the entire blame on a select few.
Lamont_Madison says
savant will be hung by the throat when this all comes down!
TokyoTengu says
Unintended consequences once again. They’ll never learn.
John Van Stry says
I wonder how many people know that the original reason for the minimum wage was to drive the undesirables out of work, so they would hopefully starve and die? It has never been about helping the poor or the uneducated. It’s about driving them into the underclasses and keeping them there.
Search for the original proposals, it’s all there if you go look.
tensor says
Search for the original proposals, it’s all there if you go look.
Assertions made without evidence will be dismissed without evidence.
So, you delivered an entire comment on the importance of a good work ethic, and then you demonstrated how you were just too lazy to perform a simple web search. Perhaps you didn’t work enough hours at minimum-wage jobs when you were a teenager?
Joseph says
I guess you were too lazy too… http://fee.org/freeman/detail/the-eugenics-plot-of-the-minimum-wage
tensor says
This is just another version of, “Margaret Sanger was, like nearly everyone else of her time, a racist, so women in 2015 should not have reproductive freedom.” If you read your linked post correctly, you’ll see that part of the reason for a minimum wage was to eliminate child labor. Was that a bad goal, too?
I guess you were too lazy too…
I didn’t make the claim, therefore I was under no obligation to find support for it. Just as I am not now under any obligation to show why, even if true, the claim is relevant to the $15/hour issue today.
FantasiaWHT says
The relevance is that regardless of intent, the actual effect of a price floor on labor is to price some people out of the market, if they do not have skills that are worth at least $15/hour.
tensor says
That may have been their intent, yes. Given that they were dead flat wrong in their racism, why do we assume their grasp of economics was any better?
Pteromandias says
Can you identify any other commodity that sees an increase or no change in demand when its price goes up?
tensor says
Can you identify the basis for your assumption that labor is a commodity?
dvt says
Well, a commodity is what can be bought or sold, broadly speaking, and labor can be bought or sold.
tensor says
When the financial media report on “commodity sales,” they are not usually referring to labor contracts. However, we have a great example of the disconnect between supply, demand, and price here in Seattle:
Seattle-area residents paid, on average, $1,492 per unit compared with the year before, during which they paid $1,366, Axiometrics reported.
And the apartment occupancy rate remained high in 2014, ending the year at 95.1 percent after hitting a peak of 96.4 percent in June 2014.
So. the occupancy rate declined while the rents increased. Law of supply and demand: myth or fiction?
Pteromandias says
That’s not an assumption. Labor is a scarce factor of production, it can be made uniform and regular. It can be bought and sold. Hence it is a commodity.
Prattle On, Boyo says
Frankly, I’m still waiting for the sky to fall as a result of Obamacare. But like the Y2K bug, it was all of whole lot of hot air just as this story is. Speculation disguised as fact derived from a Magic 8 ball.
Xmas says
The DotCom bust of 2000 was directly related to the Y2K activity. The reason planes didn’t fall from the sky and ATMs begin spitting out bills at midnight on January 1st, 2000 was the billions of dollars spent in the preceding years to root out any potential software and hardware issues. Once the New Year passed with minimal issues, the tech bubble deflated as the “full employment for COBOL programmers” zeitgeist was replaced by “Why would I buy pet food online?”.
And I hope you can certainly see the direct line of action from Greenspan’s “soft landing” actions at the Fed in 2000 to the Housing bubble in 2008 to the current state of NIRP around the globe. So, Y2K bug, you’re living it now. And just think, we’ve only got 23 more years until the C 32-bit date bug needs to be fixed. 🙂
johninlongmont says
unintended liberal consequences strike again!
Fleagus Gustafario says
But what would you do if it actually worked? If things improved, would you admit you were wrong? Or would you go all in with excuses?
Cyrano Jones says
Or simply pretend it didn’t happen. Making excuses is admitting it was successful.
Fleagus Gustafario says
You say that as if it’s a certainty, it’s not.
Cyrano Jones says
If ‘it’ is “The raised minimum wage produced economic gains” and the basic premise of the discussion it ‘If it actually worked’ then yes, ‘it’ is a certainty.
Pteromandias says
I saw a guy do a rain dance once, and it rained later that day.
In order to say something “worked” you need to actually be able to see a mechanism of effect from cause. I saw a guy do a rain dance once. But since I didn’t see how it could possibly be related to meteorology, so I must have simply seen a rain dancer who knew how to use the Weather Channel app.
Fleagus Gustafario says
Yeah but if you could literally narrow down the variables to determine that it was the minimum wage that helped things, would you change your views? You seem to be rationalizing the idea of ignoring evidence if it were to pop up.
Pteromandias says
If you could. Yes, if we could establish an experiment where ceteris parebus wages are increased and you saw a general increase in economic – as in wealth-generating – activity as a result, then I would happily concede. But this goes against all logic, so the evidence would have to be extraordinary, and there would have to be a theory to explain the mechanism. After all, someone could show me a trick machine that looked like a perpetual motion device, but I need to know the theory behind its working.
Saying that a minimum wage increases wealth and economic activity flies in the face of long-known laws of economics. So there needs to be some really extraordinary evidence and a theory.
tensor says
Saying that a minimum wage increases wealth and economic activity flies in the face of long-known laws of economics. So there needs to be some really extraordinary…
How about Washington state’s economic performance in the fifteen-plus years since we enacted I-688?
liberty of conscience says
Liberalism is so idiotic and short sighted. Government sends so many taxes and regulations restaurants’ way, then has the satanic nerve to tax people for the “privilege” of eating. Government is the disease already and liberalism is like a virus that spreads bad government.
zipity says
But-but-but….
They MEAN so well…
Just more work for the Road to Hades Paving Company LLC.
Flunking_retirement says
Cant have market freedom and economic tyranny at the same time. Will they ever le
arn ? I doubt it.
salthebarber says
This anti-government narrative is wearing thin. Anytime, I deal with the government the experience is quite positive. Like most American citizen they sincerely care about doing a good job.
Mud says
Codependency is a known psychological disorder that is pretty miserable long term. Sure it is nice when government does everything for you, but the long term psychological damage is well documented. Government has it’s place, making all the hard moral decisions for you is not one of them.
Johnathan Pertolick says
“Government has it’s place, making all the hard moral decisions for you is not one of them.”
Ensuring that workers aren’t abused by industry and are able to live at an American standard of living IS one of the roles of government in America, cherished after several generations of Americans lived through some of the worst conditions that industrialization ever put humanity through.
Sorry bub, if you want some anarchist neo-libertarian wet dream, you won’t find it in America.
scooter says
Who is going to insure that workers aren’t abused by government? The government isn’t your friend, and it certainly doesn’t care about you, if you want companionship go rescue a dog.
Dakota says
AWESOME! Well said scooter! Cause in a free market people cant just avoid companies that have a bad name for abusing employees/providing shitty products. OF COURSE NOT because there would be a monopoly! Oh wait the monopolies were created by the government… “But im too weak to stand up for myself so maybe I can pay half my total wealth to someone else to do everything for me!”
salthebarber says
I don’t have a clue about what you speak of. You are using the internet. Does that make you codependent on the organization (Army) that created it? If you use medicines discovered by the NIH, does that make you codependent? If you are receiving SS and Medicare services in return for the contributions you made, are you codependent?
Most of the integrated circuits technology came from government research. Will you be returning your electronics devices anytime soon? I doubt it.
Codependency! What misguided thinking!
scooter says
Haha, good one.
Aaron Robert says
Austrian Economics can help you.
salthebarber says
You are way over my head with that one.
J. McMahon says
Sal…put down the crack pipe, dude.
salthebarber says
Sorry J. You are speaking to wrong person.
dude1394 says
Yea…good thing everyone thinks like you.
“Americans continue to name the government (18%) as the most important
U.S. problem, a distinction it has had for the past four months.
Americans’ mentions of the economy as the top problem (11%) dropped this
month, leaving it tied with jobs (10%) for second place.”
salthebarber says
The U.S. has one of the strongest economies and jobs market in the world.
As far as the government goes, I am certain that Congress plays a major role that poll. But, even with Congress’ theatrics, they still pass Bills on a regular basis.
We have a great economy and government for that matter. It is OK for people to be critical. It prevents complacency. But, to say the government is bad is completely false.
Some politicians like to use the anti-government theme as a platform. But, they seem to forget they are the government.
salthebarber says
The U.S. has one of the strongest economies and jobs market in the world.
As far as the government goes, I am certain that Congress plays a major role that poll. But, even with Congress’ theatrics, they still pass Bills on a regular basis.
We have a great economy and government for that matter. It is OK for people to be critical. It prevents complacency. But, to say the government is bad is completely false.
Some politicians like to use the anti-government theme as a platform. But, they seem to forget they are the government.
Timothy Kincaid says
NEVER is dealing with the government a positive experience.
salthebarber says
The government is responsible for the internet and many of the life saving drugs that we have in this country. Our soldiers and their families are making sacrifices for all of us. These are just a few examples. NEVER just fits the phony narrative I speak of.
Aaron Robert says
you mean progressivism there, guy
MD says
It is Capitalism that has outlived it usefulness.
Alan McKendree says
WhileI understand and support the basic point, of how Seattle is screwing over its business owners and entrepreneurs, I can’t help making the desperate and perhaps futile note that there is no such word as “restauranteur”. It’s “restaurateur”.
Kennon Gilson says
Tough to run a business on a profit of minus.
lairdp says
It would be. Of course, in reality income isn’t a fixed number. What always happens is that when wages go up, people have more money and sales go up, so businesses make more money and hire more staff, open more locations, etc., to keep up with the opportunity.
If you’re a businessman who can’t figure out how to survive in an economy with many more customers and slightly higher labor costs, you should be doing something else.
Brigadier says
You are only looking at one side of the coin. Costs go up. The cost of having your food delivered just went up, let alone the price of the food. Everything increases in price, so where is the gain?
lairdp says
I clearly listed both sides. As I said, what has happened historically when wages go up is that labor costs go up and sales go up MORE, yielding a net boost to businesses. Want to try again?
Fleagus Gustafario says
I am a small business owner who pays well above minimum and Lairdp I totally agree with you.
Here’s my website:
http://s31tech.org
lairdp says
Cool business!
Paul Petry says
“Restaurant owners, expecting to operate on thinner margins, have tried to adapt in several ways including “higher menu prices, cheaper, lower-quality ingredients, reduced opening times, and cutting work hours and firing workers,” according to The Seattle Times ”
What were they thinking?
lairdp says
They are just trying to keep labor costs down, and ignoring the reality that when wages improve their sales improve. And when you have more customers buying more, you don’t cut back on workers or hours or make your product worse, you expand into the opportunity. That’s what happened at SeaTac – hotels are expanding capacity, restaurants are hiring, etc. The “gloom and doom” has nothing to do with actual economics – it’s just a tactic used by businesses to try to keep their labor costs down.
The part that’s odd to me is that ever time, everywhere, that the minimum wage has gone up it’s been great for business. But, for some reason, businesses almost all oppose it anyway. Do they not care that they’re lobbying against their own interests? Or are they blinded by right-wing ideology, in that they KNOW that paying workers more is bad, so they don’t know the facts that contradict their theory?
AZComicGeek says
You raise the prices and clearly display a no tipping rule.
Phil B. says
If the only only way you can run a business is to pay your employees dirt, then good riddance. There’ll be plenty of others coming in to take advantage of workers with more money in their pockets.
Gilbert Fernandez Jr. says
If that’s the case where are they then? Are you a business owner, and if so how much are you paying your employees?
Fleagus Gustafario says
I have been a small business owner for 5 years. I pay people who work with me anywhere from $700-$1500/mo. But they don’t work full time (maybe like 2-3 days a week, or all week, but 3-4 hours a day). We focus on goals getting accomplished, and fast response time over raw hours. We pay proportional to what’s coming in. What I pay is the amount that I know I can pay without any issues, even if business is slow…I could pay higher but if things slowed down I’d be in a pinch. But if business increases, there is the opportunity to share that pie and pay more.
I run my business as if it’s employee owned, even though officially it’s not. So we’re all members of a team, all freelancers, and we teach each-other the field and bring in business as a team (I might be good at one thing, they might be good at another). I’m not the boss of everyone…it’s more like everybody is the boss of what they are good at.
Eventually we will be making 6 figure salaries as business increases, it’s just a matter of time, gets better every year, but it’s not the cancerous growth model, it’s slow and steady. It’s only part time work, but loyalty is high because it’s a good deal, and a lot of work gets done because it doesn’t feel like work…because we don’t all have to go to a building for 8 hours each day 6 days a week hah. We have more time to be creative and all that. I’m a business owner but seriously I want a Star Trek future with no money…so I’ll extract money from the system and build cool things with it and help people. Seems to be working oddly well as a business model too…people like it, tell their friends, get more business (“Hey this guy isn’t all about the money, we can trust him to tell us what’s wrong with our server”). But people will throw money at you if you help them solve problems.
But again I’m just starting out, only 5 years in, and I’m still in my 20’s, but give it 10 more years and I’ll be able to do a lot more.
http://s31tech.org
X3Charlie says
Using the same logic: If the only way you can live your life is by needing such a high salary, then good riddance.
Phil B. says
The writers might want to check their facts. The minimum wage goes up to $11 on April 1st, not $15. You also might want to check SeaTac, a nearby city which raised the minimum to $15 last year and is doing just fine thank you.
Pithy Eponym Here says
“Of course, restaurants close for a variety of reasons. But, according to Seattle Magazine, the “impending minimum wage hike to $15 per hour” is playing a “major factor.” That’s not surprising, considering “about 36% of restaurant earnings go to paying labor costs.” Seattle Magazine,: ”
Sounds like paying wait staff $2.30 is such a burden. When your business model thrives on not paying your staff adequately, and you decide to shutter your doors because you fail to adapt to changing business models you are not falling prey to socialism, you are falling prey to your own incompetent and failed business model. Other places and cities are doing fine. The restaurant industry is the one sector where it seems ok to pay people according to the whims of fate, and not the competitive market. Perhaps the restaurant industry needs to outsource to India? They pay about the same. This is working in other cities, all it does is point out Seattle restauranteurs are greedy shucks. The remaining ones will survive and thrive. Seattle is not going to be another Detroit no more so than Boston would, or Portland, or Springfield. Ignorance of socioeconomic localities and trends justs illustrates peoples lack of understanding of the marketplace.
Fleagus Gustafario says
Seattle has a booming restaurant industry, I grew up there. What’s nice about Washington is that tipped workers get paid the same minimum wage as regular workers. I was shocked to find out years ago that some states can pay tipped workers less than regular workers…all the way to $2/hr, jeeze, what are we a “developing nation”?
In states where the tipped minimum is very low, they have more sluggish restaurant industries too…turns out that when waitresses and waiters can afford to eat at the places they work, business goes up. Seems so obvious but some just don’t seem to get it. Sure the burger costs $10.50 now instead of $9.50 but everybody has more money in their pocket. If you go to Vietnam I’m sure you can eat a full meal for $0.90, but people have way less money in their pocket, so economy more sluggish.
I am also a small business owner, minimum wage increase is good it will increase business in the long run. Most small business owners I know that are doing well, are already paying at this rate.
deimos19 says
huh, didn’t see that coming. If you know physics, human nature, and history you know what will happen. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, people yearn to be free, and tyrants are disposed of after a brief period of despotism. It will happen here.
ThewlynOh says
BUT, liberals don’t care, they WANT $15 an hour – any basic course in finance & economics could be enlightening to them – they as always, they’ll never listen because facts don’t make them “feel good”…
lairdp says
The economics are pretty simple, backed up by 80 years of supporting data. When the minimum wage goes up, the increased wages go straight into the economy, resulting in an economic boom. Cutting the minimum wage puts more money into the owner’s pocket, which is sucked out of the economy, depressing the economy. It’s happened that way every time, in town after town, and state after state.
Anyone arguing that raising the minimum wage is bad for the economy isn’t doing so based on actual data, they’re just trying to keep their labor costs down, and they’re too stupid to see the macro-economic issue that if everyone’s wages are down, the economy tanks. Or perhaps they’re just blinded by their ideology – when you KNOW the answer, why look at data?
Gilbert Fernandez Jr. says
If that were the case why would we need to constantly need to increase the minimum wage? Also bear in mind in the last 80 years of supporting data there was not a requirement for employers or for that matter employees to have health care. Also in the last 80 years of data, what was the global market’s impact on employment within the United States? It’s easy to look at data without regard to the situation outside of said data.
Fleagus Gustafario says
We have to keep increasing the minimum wage because the dollar devalues overtime, and companies wont pay more unless they have to, even if they can.
Fleagus Gustafario says
This is totally correct. It’s a cumulative effect. Either way there will be a few players taken down…like struggling restaurants that pay very low. But also keep in mind there’s plenty of them that are already paying more than 15/hr and they will be totally unaffected. In the end you’ll have food that’s a bit more expensive, workers that get paid more, and restaurants that are more profitable.
Fleagus Gustafario says
It’s all about the long run.
ThewlynOh says
would love to see that research…
if your labor costs are based on $8 an hour, and someone forces you to pay $15 an hour, tell me how an owner can continue to make a sustaining profit? if the owner can’t afford to stay open because you force them to double their labor costs, then NOTHING goes “back into the economy”…
pretty simple economics from a business profitability standpoint…
my point is “if an owner WANTS to pay $15 an hour, that’s great, but if they don’t, and you don’t like it, don’t work there, but don’t FORCE higher wages on businesses that might be barely making it as it is” – oh wait, you don’t care…
lairdp says
$15 an hour is what it takes for a full time worker to earn the poverty level, which is what it takes to barely survive: housing, food, and transportation. Paying anyone working full time less than that is just pushing the cost of their employment onto the public, because their income is so low that despite working full time they’re surviving on government assistance, when those people should be paid by their employers rather than living off to the public.
If every employer’s labor costs go up slightly, that doesn’t force them to go under, because they still need the to work to be done. In the real world, because the business owners aren’t idiots, they raise their prices slightly. For example, at Walmart, a 1% increase in prices, a change nobody would even notice because prices vary more than that routinely, would raise their minimum wage to $15.
Instead of your theories, let’s look at a real world example – Seatac. They raised the minimum wage to $15 nine months ago. Businesses all wailed that they would go under, fire people, etc. But what actually happened is that when wages went up, the economy did better because there were more people with money to spend, so the restaurants didn’t fire people, they hired people and added new locations. And instead of closing hotels, they built expansions.
The same thing has happened everywhere the minimum wage has been raised. It turns out that while businesses hate the idea of paying people decent wages, they’re quite happy to take the growth caused by those improved wages.
ThewlynOh says
Soooooo, does “80 years of supporting data tell you THIS?”
http://shiftwa.org/more-seattle-restaurants-close-doors-as-15-minimum-wage-approaches/
lairdp says
If you read the story past the headline, you will find that it’s not based on actual facts, it’s someone speculating that in a few years, when Seattle’s minimum wage goes up to $15, restaurants would close. It’s rather misleading that the author tries very hard to describe it as actually happening in the present tense anyway. If you want to look at actual impact of raising the minimum wage in that region, look at SeaTac. Before hand, businesses ranted about being doomed, and afterwards it turned out that the economy is booming, hotels are expanding instead of closing, and restaurants are hiring and opening new locations instead of firing people. Funny how that worked out.
ThewlynOh says
i did read the article, and to me, given king’s english and verb tense, i present this…
“are making the financial decision to close shop”
“closings have occurred across the city”
those are not “speculative” those statements are “definitive” – so i’m not sure why you’re asserting “speculation”, but okay…
also, if you think that “higher menu prices, cheaper, lower-quality ingredients, reduced opening times, and cutting work hours and firing workers” is progress, then your definition of economic utopia does not describe a world in which i want to live…but hey, people are making more money to spend on higher priced & lower quality goods & services, so that’s GREAT!
when you take a $9 an hour salary and increase it to $15 by force, you increase gross labor costs by 66% (simple math there) – to remain in business, an owner has to respond…does life for all really get better when goods & services are cheapened or people lose their jobs because their company closes? not to me…
tensor says
… those are not “speculative” those statements are “definitive” – so i’m not sure why you’re asserting “speculation”, but okay…
Those statements were not supported by any evidence, hence they are speculations, no matter how definitively they were made. Since you read the article, you know it concluded:
Despite these serious challenges, however, brave restaurateurs continue to open eateries in Seattle, which, remembering basic supply and demand, also naturally accounts for closures we’ve already seen and more that will come. Capitol Hill alone is carrying on an unprecedented dining boom, and in mid January, Capitol Hill Seattle announced that Nue, Chris Cvetkovich’s modernist global street food joint, was the neighborhood’s 100th food and drink opening in three years.
That’s right — one hundred new places, in just one neighborhood, in just three years. Four restaurants citywide closing in four months is a far lower number of closures than we should expect under these circumstances, and there is no evidence, none at all, that any of these closures have anything to do with a policy which has not yet gone into effect.
lairdp says
This is stupid. What happens wherever the minimum wage goes up is that the economy improves. At first businesses freak out and focus on their costs going up, and threaten to fire people, but in reality in town after town, and state after state, the improved wages go straight into the economy, creating more people who can go out to eat, pay rent, etc. And yes, prices go up a little bit to pay for those wages. But in return for a small increase in costs, your business has more customers buying more meals, etc., so what happens is that don’t fire people, they hire more people and expand the business to keep up with demand.
Fleagus Gustafario says
Exactly! I live in the area so looking forward to seeing the experiment play out.
J R says
In 1958 I bought my first car. It was a two year old (56) Ford Fairlane with low mileage. Cost me $1200. In 1966 after graduating college, I bought my first new car, a 1966 Corvette for $4,064. 327/350HP Convertible with additional hard top. In 1970, having lost my 66 Vette in Hurricane Camille, I purchased a 1970 Corvette for $5300.. 454/390HP Coupe with all power. My most recent new car purchase was an 2010 Toyota Avalon LX Sedan. Paid $29,000. Notice any trend here? Wages have risen steadily……..and prices followed.
Nothing will change with the new law in Seattle. The short term boost to employees with the raise will quickly evaporate. Prices will always adjust to the market, and we will still have “rich, middle class and poor.” The sickening part of this is………the middle class is shrinking, and the group considered poor is growing. My (long winded) point? A healthy economy cannot be legislated. All the minimum wage law increases of the past have done NOTHING to bring people out of poverty. Government meddling has done nothing but INCREASE those falling into the “poor” category. Only ones who will get out of poverty are those who marry money, luck up with an inheritance, win the lottery or (perish the thought) WORK their way out. OH…….almost forgot…..get elected to an office.
wingnutbuster says
Wages have not “risen steadily”, they have stagnated relative to the times . What has risen steadily is the amount of credit available for people to purchase goods and services with, and as a result, companies can charge above wage market prices for everything and anything. or didn’t you notice people putting gasoline on credit cards while you were out mailing your car payment? In the 70’s most of my parents had no credit cards, and a house and possibly a car were the only two items they ever had extended payments for…and, they were still able to save money.
http://www.mindcontagion.org/html/real_wages.html
J R Moses says
What planet are you from? I’m talking about GROSS WAGES. Tell me that the average salary of 1958 was the same as it is today. As for your parents and friends……….BRAVO. They lived within their means, as people SHOULD. And people putting gas on credit cards? Have you ever heard of convenience, cash back bonuses, business record keeping or numerous OTHER reasons for purchasing gas? This is 2015……almost everyone puts their gas on a card…….and most do not do it because they cannot afford it. And one more thing: I haven’t had a car note….or any other for that matter…….since 1970. I don’t buy anything until I save enough to PAY FOR IT. If everyone were like me, the lending institutions would be broke. So don’t be “spinning” my statement, and don’t be assuming I’ve been paying notes. You just keep reading your “mindcontagion” and don’t take the time to think about what someone said, or if there might any merit to it. You “intellectuals” could do with some “horse sense,” as my folks used to say.
wingnutbuster says
You are just clearly an angry person. Wages can chase prices and vice versa, but that is not what is happening. Gross or net, you have to account for purchasing power adjusted for inflation. Here’s a nice gold-bug, waitin’ for Armageddon site that saw fit to print some horse sense, as you say…
http://wchildblog.com/2014/05/28/inflation-conundrum-price-increases-without-wage-growth-are-unsustainable/
wingnutbuster says
Pretty sure even a horse could understand this:
http://www.mybudget360.com/cost-of-living-1938-to-2013-inflation-history-cost-of-goods-inflation/
J R says
Keep putting your faith in what others say………and don’t think for yourself. I made a post in “simple” terms. Wages go up……..prices go up. End result…….no gain. You’re an intellectual. You don’t get it. That’s ok.
wingnutbuster says
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/truth-needle-is-15-wage-dooming-seattle-restaurants-owners-say-no/
No, I do get it…I get the facts.
Bob_Knows says
Its the Detroit plan.
Douglas J. Koch says
Maybe it’s time for restaurants to rethink their business model.
raymarshall says
Boeing keeps threatening to leave. It won’t be long before the threat becomes a reality.
Fleagus Gustafario says
Let them, the economy here is diverse enough to survive.
LA_Bob says
You know, I think this might well be the reason higher wages largely “work” in Seattle — the presence of one or more large employers. The skilled employees earn enough to drive the cost of living higher (housing costs, hospitality, and so on). The $15/hour model might work in areas where there is at least one major economic driver, but it won’t work in areas lacking that factor.
I don’t know enough about Seattle’s economy to know how big a role Boeing plays, but I do know a lot of towns collapsed when major employees left or folded or downsized. Think Detroit and Allentown, for example. Think North Dakota and the Bakken shale price collapse. Think Southern California periodically when aerospace is cut.
A lot of commenters here seem to think high minimum wages are self-sustaining. They’re not. If so, there would be very little reason to stop at $15/hour.
eddie willers says
Welcome to Economics 101.
Objectivist says
But the leftists said Seattle is doing great because of this in their cute little memes on Facebook– despite this wage not yet having been implemented.
Fleagus Gustafario says
It will work out fine, so far it’s only been stories of struggling business owners that threaten to close if they can’t pay everybody a low wage. They might find that business goes up, but they aren’t even willing to try it for a few months…seems pretty stupid. I am a small business owner as well..I pay well above minimum, it works.
Anthony J. DeFusco says
Boeing is moving to South Carolina.
Fleagus Gustafario says
Good riddance.
Frank says
What a bad idea this is. Who ever agreed to this should be punished. It’s legal blackmailing. If a person is worth 15 an hour. Then pay them that. Took me 15 years working my ass of to make 20 an hour.
So now folks with some kind of collage education to make a good life by studying hard for a few years. Had been for nothing. Why bother.
Is only going to raise unemployment and close businesses. Which just adds to the problem not fix anything.
Fleagus Gustafario says
You were working for cheap owners…I’ve been in a few jobs before and yeah you have to lick boot for decades just to get a few bucks extra. My pay quintupled when I figured out how to start my own business and get out of the rat race.
Now that I am able to do things my own way, we make more money, and everybody gets paid more. At most jobs you can tell that most of the money basically only goes to 2-3 people in the company. Screw that.
TimUwe says
Not that I support the minimum wage, but how does this story jive with SeaTac who raised the minimum wage to $15 in 2013 and claims to have experienced no negative economic impact?
Fleagus Gustafario says
There has not been a significant negative impact in SeaTac. It’s been slightly positive.
Bob Parkman says
The laws of economics can’t be repealed, though socialists have tried again and again.
I’ll bet instead of repealing the $15 minimum wage, they’ll pass laws forbidding restaurants to close down. Property rights are meaningless in the age of Obama.
Fleagus Gustafario says
Which economics specifically are you referring to? Surely there’s more than just one model right?
Bob Parkman says
Basic microeconomics, the foundation of all economics, the adjustment of market equilibrium to distortions such wage controls. There are no other applicable “models”.
tensor says
So. you have an explanation for why Washington state’s high minimum wage co-existed with fifteen years of excellent economic performance? Do tell.
Klapton says
“Washington Restaurant Association’s Anthony Anton puts it this way: “It’s not a political problem; it’s a math problem.”
Math is a powerful thing. It destroyed the USSR and is in the process of destroying the USA. Negative numbers are NEGATIVE. Or as Margaret Thatcher said, “The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.”
whathappenedtomycnnname says
“We’re not taking a position on what the government does, but any time any company, whether it’s us or someone else,
raises wages, it’s a help for the economy.” Carol Schumacher, vice president of investor relations – Walmart. Walmart has a vested interest in the minimum wage debate. I thought that was an interesting statement since it certainly wasn’t coming from the evil “liberals”
Harvey Summers says
Some businesses are closing and blaming a future event. At best, correlation, not causation.
How ’bout “I suck at math and am not smart enough to figure out a business model that doesn’t depend on taxpayers subsidizing my employees” How many of them said that? None? Yea, personal accountability my arse.
Hey, if we scape building codes, there will be more contracting jobs! Sure, buildings and bridges will collapse, people will die but JOBS!
Here is what will happen. People will lose jobs but find new ones as all those people still working spend their money at places that aren’t exploiting taxpayers. Even whiny former business owners that suck at math.
Its called capitalism. You signed up for it. Now live with it.
Pteromandias says
Ah yes, the old taxpayer subsidy gambit. Because unemployed people aren’t subsidized at all.
Pteromandias says
Gosh you’re so cute. Building codes are updates about every ten years. That must be why every building over ten years old is literally crumbling into the streets. And gee, those bridges built centuries ago that are still standing today, must be some devilry at work there. And I’m never going anywhere near those pyramids.
I always wondered why everyone was so ignorant in the past and didn’t know how to do anything right. Imagine how many old buildings would still be standing if only there were code enforcement officers to tell them how to engineer.
jdallen_wa says
More light less heat.
First, the real demographics of minimum wage:
http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2013.pdf
40% are full time, over half are women.
Second, Trends in compensation to American workers (numbers derived from reporting by the BLS).
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2013/05/Change%20in%20Real%20Wages.jpg
Last, mimimum wage trends in buying power.
https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/minwage1.jpg
Manuel says
Welcome to Detroit-on-the-Pacific
jdallen_wa says
Coda to my last post.
In short, businesses which are most impacted (negatively) by the wage
increases are exactly those which have benefited from constraints placed
on the pricing of labor.
These
constraints on the market were created in part by larger players who
have explicitly fought to prevent labor from getting a seat at the
table – a fair share of the profit created by their contribution. Establishing a fair “floor” for the cost of labor barely begins
to address the real problems.
In
summary, if something requires human labor (time and life energy) to
accomplish, it deserves to be priced such that those providing the labor
can make a life with it. There *should* be no difference in our
society between how my life is valued, and how that of someone making
minimum wage is valued. If you find this difficult to swallow, I suggest a visit to our Constitution and Bill of Rights is in order.
By extension, my
labor expended permits me to make a life for myself. The same should apply to someone making minimum wage.
It’s a very simple concept, and one I’m sure Adam Smith would approve
of.
Anthony Benson says
Leftists are quick to blame opposition to raising wages on greed. As an entrepreneur developing my own business, I am doing without to make it a success. I have no problem paying for skilled labor, but no one can afford to pay high wages to someone who is completely inexperienced. High labor costs mean less job opportunities.
HReardon says
The future of the waiter above. An automated ordering system and pick up your food. Totally predictable.
Steven Butterbaugh says
Seattle government “fires” thousands as it forces businesses out of business with its outrageous right-to-work law.
Fleagus Gustafario says
It’s not a right to work law. It’s a right to decent pay law.
Olmoss says
Heh, I was Chief Psychologist for Cincinnati Public Schools.
Our Special Eduction Department spent all kinds of energy trying to improve our ‘outcomes’ for our students.
Bottom Line.
Minimum Wage KILLED us!
Minimum Wage Fed the Maw of the Gang and the Drug culture.
I am sorry, but until we get an exemption for education, we are dead in the water for really helping OUR young people.
rambo jones says
And yet the Libt@rds will spew on and on about what a success the minimum wage hike was.
Honey Badger says
Will this law still be in effect in 5 year? It’ll be interesting to watch the fall out.
mogden says
Only filthy plutocrats complain about raising worker’s wages. They are lucky they are allowed to operate in Seattle at all without being thrown into jail
S Childers says
I love the math involved here. He estimates that the average restaurant in Seattle has been making 28K a year, so if the minimum wage employee works 40 hrs/wk at $15.00/hour x 52 weeks… that rounds out to $31,200 a year. The employees are supposed to make more than the owners?
Instead of “Seattle the Peerless City” their song should be “Seattle the Penniless City”.
Fleagus Gustafario says
This wont have much of an effect…It will work out, these are restaurants that are closing even before trying out the new minimum wage. You’d think they’d close after the wage kicks in and it’s getting harder to pay for it. They don’t know if business will go up or down yet until it’s been at least a year.
mogden says
I’d like to live in your universe where small businessmen have money coming out of their ears.
Fleagus Gustafario says
Not out of my ears, but if you provide a service, business goes up (as long as people can afford it). I can absorb some higher labor costs, but I’ll need to figure out new ways to bring more activity in…I’m not worried.
Flunking_retirement says
You mean Fraser and Niles wont be be able to dine at Chez Luis’? Oh the humanity !
GeraldWeinand says
The minimum wage in Seattle increases to $10 or $11 an hour on 1 April 2015, not $15 an hour. The current minimum wage for Washington state is $9.47 an hour.
But as was noted, “restaurants close for a variety of reasons.” My guess is this incremental increase in the minimum wage is not one of them.
Jim T says
I’m not for or against $15 minimum wage. NO axe to grind here. I”m for a higher minimum wage but $10 seems fine to me…Regardless, I do want to question a couple of facts here. First, why are all these restaurants closing down NOW before it’s even gone into effect? Why would you do that if you own a flourishing restaurant? I don’t trust that assertion. Second, if you believe that a $700,000 a year restaurant only clears about $28,000 I have a Brooklyn Bridge to sell you.
Guest says
In Seattle, it will cost you $700,000 to rent a space. Keep your Brooklyn Bridge. Those are not crazy numbers.
Guest says
Other businesses see the writing on the wall as well. Why shrink your profits, move on to cost effective territories.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Longtime-Seattle-manufacturer-moving-100-jobs-to-Nevada-291123731.html
Jordan says
Parts of the Bay Area in California have $12 and $13 minimum wages and it hasn’t caused any issue other than some people can actually pay the I rent now. In San Francisco the average 1 bedroom apartment is about $2500 per month. Seattle isn’t that much cheaper. Minimum wage needs to be at least enough to pay for food and shelter.
Icarus says
Just put the prices up to even it out.
j says
All they have to do is add service charges to equal 25%. Covers the waiters and differential for other workers. No difference to customer except slightly more for meal. Owners do not need to absorb costs.
SteveAR says
Except for one problem. The customers may not want to pay the extra costs. And if the owner doesn’t get any revenue, then adding that service charge didn’t help, did it?
dude1394 says
Shush…math….gives them a head-ache.
SteveAR says
LOL. You almost made me spit up by beer on my laptop.
Tom Saltzman says
I’m thinking if somebody flipping burgers is making $15 people with a real job that were making $15-$16 already are going to want a raise.
Joe Segura says
The borders of Seattle should become a wonderful place to do business. How will Seattle deal with that. Free markets eventually prevail even though some may be black.
Nick Bradley says
These Kochsuckers are full of it. No actual evidence that they’re closing due to minimum wage hike that HASN’T GONE INTO EFFECT YET.
Cody Updegrave says
and the control of America continues to shift from the people to large corporations that are the only ones able to sustain business—corporations with their hands in the pockets of senators and congressmen–creating monopolies on markets and diminishing quality in exchange for quantity
Unckle_Ruckus says
If your food and labor costs are running around 30% each, you’re in the wrong business.
Doug says
Have you ever owned or even worked in a restaurant? How would you know what’s the right cost structure for a restaurant?
polly says
l Wow!
I wonder how many people DID NOT see that coming? Oh wait, Seattle is
so full of do gooders, everyone was to eat out every other day to keep
the doors open of all businesses. FOOLS! Good luck with your next
project.
Side
note: I will not be actively planning to visit Seattle anytime soon.
There are other places in Western Washington who are family friendly and
have more interesting things to see.
dude1394 says
Ah well…who gives a rat’s ass about business owners. Those rich money grubbing capitalist scum. Again we have liberal-arts majors having trouble with math.
Roger Fredinburg says
Government FASCISTS hate the “Little guy” “mom & pop” gotta go! Once the NWO Corporate/Government control freaks run the small business folks out – they will have their way with us… Control our income down to the lowest levels, kick us out of Suburbia and stack and pack us like ants in the little mini-houses (350 sq. ft. or less) Get us all on mood drugs… Geez! I think George Orwell was more accurate than any of us could have imagined… RISE UP! Reclaim FREEDOM before it’s too late (as if it’s not already)
JCDArizona says
I love how the do gooders always seem to have their own version of reality and then when their moonbat ideas end up not panning out, they immediately move to blame their failures on everyone else. Pretty sure this is going to end up the same way.
Grizzly907LA says
Liberals can’t understand normal thinking!
Tim says
According to the numbers you give in this article, I would have to raise my food prices and I would use a backwards scale to find out how much I would have to raise my price, in order to conform to your thoughts, that people who work at my restaurant must make at least $15 per hour, when I currently pay them $10. That is a 50% increase in my labor cost, which represents 36% of my current cost.
Labor has just risen to 54%, which, in order for me to stay open with the new affordable health care act, corporate taxes at 34%, I would have to just double the menu prices. I don’t see how any other fast food place could keep from having the same ratios. I am glad, now, because it is you who want this, that will pay for it. The other possibility is to close.
Timothy Kincaid says
The poorest will be jobless and the most affordable restaurants will be gone. All in the name of helping the poor.
And anyone with a calculator and basic math skills should have seen this coming.
Paul says
And then the urban life in Seattle will become a lot poorer. And when those unskilled servers turn to crime, as some statistically will, it gets even worse.
RightWingPooFlinger says
I had to spend nearly a decade in my trade before making $15 an hour. And they’re giving it to illegals and people without a great deal of skills or training. They deserve the economic destruction this creates. It’s not even immediate, it’s a slow, gradual creep as people don’t bother getting an education or pursue higher goals. Why should they? Just work at McDonald’s and make the same money. And here you are, going into debt for school like a sucker.
Katy Wilkerson says
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11037630_910319275658890_738765066859994663_n.jpg?oh=d506a8cc13070eeba4e0c842e6f8b492&oe=55700148&__gda__=1433842643_759c4e64cbedd97c202112adaacf0ad8
BDonk says
Well duh….. liberals are clueless about how businesses work. You can utopian dream all you want but those unicorns aren’t real
W J P says
If $15/hour is a good minimum wage, then $30/hour would be doubly good. Hey, why don’t we just raise it to $100/hour?
tensor says
If lower wages help the economy, then why not re-institute slavery? American conservatives once defended slavery, just like modern conservatives now resist increasing our minimum wages.
(See, two can play at your stupid game!)
SpotOn_SpotOff says
I honestly don’t know why those restaurants can’t increase their prices, impose a NO TIPPING policy on the customers and conduct their business. This is one of the few states where wait staff get paid minimum wage instead of $1-3/hour with the expectation they work hard for their tips to bring them to a nice wage level.
Brett Davis says
Human nature and basic economics once again throwing a monkey wrench into economic central planning.
Bob Silverman says
Leftist thieving ratbags have destroyed the once beautiful Detroit!! Watch out they are looking at you next!!! Soylent Green should be composed of Democrats! Fight back!! Protest!!!
reepotomac says
Simple question. Why stop at $15? More is more, right?
DVPFLA says
I am suggesting if the people of Seattle really cared the minimum wage would be $100.00 per hour…What do you think? Maybe $200.00 per hour
reepotomac says
I don’t see business owners pushing for a MAXIMUM wage. There s no moral high ground in pushing for a minimum wage.
peterjohn936 says
Bad restaurants closing doors not news. Happens all of the time. The good things is that it will help the good restaurants to make more money.
Guest says
Less competition, fewer jobs. Not that great.
kyleyoder says
“What will change is that fewer people will be able to afford to dine out, and as a result there will be fewer great restaurants to enjoy.” the communists have been pushing for such an elitist society for generations.
KAF says
What’s this $15/hour crap? Be bold, Liberals–make it $30/hour. Or $50/hour! Think of the children, dammit!
Doug says
There is a huge point being missed here by everyone in the comments.. If you have to raise the wages of the lower scale employee’s by force , where does that leave the mid and upper management wage people? If you are strictly looking at “fairness” then as a business owner it would not be fair to give a raise to just the lower tier workers and not the mid level employee’s or managers also.. This causes strife and ripples across the entire workforce. If I worked my way up from a starting position and was faithful to the business and saw that the lower paid workers are getting a raise it would piss me of because they did not have to put in the hard work to deserve it. This leaves the business owner is a bad position.
Kirsten Geans says
Maybe if people stayed in school, they would be EDUCATED. I think that contributes to SMART. However, LAZY gets in the way of EDUCATED. Then LAZY continues to blame everything else. Vicious cycle.
Q* says
This is BULLSH1T
Don & Cristina Smith says
Wage and Price Control
The Declaration of Independence declares the purpose of Government is “to secure these Rights”, these unalienable rights such as Liberty.
Nothing in the Constitution, writings of the Founders, nor in logic, can imagine a God-given right to earn a specific wage or buy at a specific price.
Civil government has NO authority to set wages and prices; so doing is inconsistent with principles of individual liberty and the free market.
Steve Weinstein says
I suppose quoting a reliable statistic that restaurant closing have increased since the law had been passed would have required, you know, actual journalism.
Guest says
It is not just restaurants that see the writing on the wall in Seattle.
John Burroughs founded the company in 1972. His son David Burroughs is the Vice Chair and said Seattle’s new minimum wage nudged them into action. Burroughs said, “We’ve got competitors that are working at $2 an hour.”
While the company does have a plant in Ireland, Burroughs said the mission is to keep production in the United States. He said the $15 an hour minimum wage would eventually add up to a few million dollars a year.
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Longtime-Seattle-manufacturer-moving-100-jobs-to-Nevada-291123731.html
Blinknone says
They need to raise prices to reflect the new costs of doing business. Simple really. The people spoke and said they are willing to pay sharply higher prices to support a higher minimum wage.
William Najger says
The discussion leading to name calling shows just how unintelligent and hateful people really choose to be. I’ve read at least 10 postings that start out with a pro or con to this article and end up with calling the opposing side asswipe, asshat, full of sh@# and much more. This is the divide us system we belong to. Work on being kind, compassionate and loving to one another. If we do this together, we will easily make choices that create equality, security and benefits for all. Love is the answer to all problems. You all know this in your heart.
Here are my two positive points:
1. If you are getting $15 per hour minimum wage, please work hard and show real appreciation for the job by giving as close to 100% when you are on the clock. The business owner is always going to pay you 100% even when you are having bad day (50-60%). Have you ever said at the end of your bad work day, “hey boss, I only deserve 75% of my pay for the day”. I bet, NO. So work hard and help make that business a success. The owner took a lot of risks starting it, so help it every way you can to keep it going strong.
2. If you are a business owner, please make and keep your business a relevant one. Be creative in your marketing, supply the needs of an every changing world with new products and or services. Be willing to do what ever it takes to stay legally successful. You are the team leader, so lead by example with positive support and honest feedback. Get to know your team and always remember, you are no better than anyone working for you. Most of all, Sell a great product or service. period.
A final note:
If the employee or employer ever calls someone at the workplace any of the rude names posted here, neither should be working or owning a business. Respect each other, please.
G Trieste says
People in power with no grasp of economics believe that they can magically change the laws of physics, just because they can change the laws of the city.
freedom247 says
The right minimum wage is $0. It’s a private contract between and employer and an employee. Government does not have the power and should not have the power to interfere with that. This kind of thinking leads to socialism, which always leads to tyranny. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j01L69eXdI
Courtney Brian says
Simple math, at 15 per hour your employee is making 31200 per year. That’s 2000 more than YOU, the business owner. Minimum wage hike is a joke. And anyone who wants it is lazy and also a joke.
Janis Wilson says
Raising the minimum wage is not the answer. Even the simplest of minds should know that when wages are increased everything else is increased to compensate. wages go up, everything else goes up so here we are back to square one, still not able to make an easy living.
you make a higher wage but your cost of living has also increased. What have you gained?
Mythx says
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of
its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under
robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber
baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be
satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us
without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
―
C.S. Lewis
Barbara Potter says
Here’s a great idea, why doesn’t the real estate housing lower the cost of land leaving those to be able to rent and or buy a home leaving some to be able to afford to live, or even better yet be able to feed their family. Here in SC where I live a waitress makes $2.13 an hour and is expected to make up the difference in tips. Yet if they don’t they must be compensated with the
the hourly wage for the our state. Our hourly wage is set only on the federal lines not an additional amount the set by the state.
MILES E DRAKE says
In “1984” there were no restaurants except for the Chestnut Tree Café, a bar frequented by purged Inner Party members. There was in fact nothing to eat but boiled cabbage and stale dark bread. This is the dream of the Seattle socialists, and it is rapidly coming true.
pcinsc says
“…Cedarbrook Lodge is moving forward with a 63-room expansion and recently started paying the $15 per hour minimum wage. …WallyPark says it’s had “the best year ever” and it’s very supportive of the minimum wage ordinance”
http://www.king5.com/story/money/2014/12/31/15-hour-minimum-wage-seatac/21097523/
Sunflower Pipes says
I guess nobody is taking into effect that people are going to have more money to spend at the restaurants. The ones that stay open will have less competition as well as a customer base with more money. I know my little store would benefit if this was enacted in Brooklyn.
Washington Nearsider says
People will have more money to spend at restaurants which are more expensive.
There will be no increase in purchasing power, only in the number of dollars earned and spent. There’s a word for that, you know.
Sunflower Pipes says
That is how how an economy works and thrives by buying and spending that’s economics 101, no economy ever succeeded simply by keeping wages low.
Washington Nearsider says
You claim to have a grasp of economics, but clearly lack a basic understanding of punctuation.
Regardless, your point stands.
No economy succeeded by keeping wages artificially low. Allowing the market to set wages is the most efficient, and beneficial way to settle the question of worker’s value.
Setting artificial ceilings or floors disrupts the market and causes more inefficiency.
Tell me, though, in order to achieve your glorious $15/hr wage, what unemployment rate are you willing to accept? 10%? 12%?
How many low-skilled, low-education workers are you willing to fire to pay those remaining a bit more?
Bear in mind that every one of those individuals goes from a net gain to a net detraction from the local economy. Instead of paying taxes, they become burdens via unemployment and welfare. Revenue goes down while expenditures go up.
In what economic model is this sustainable?
lairdp says
The flaw in your argument is that it’s based on theory, not real world data. In the real world, raising the minimum wage REDUCES unemployment, because the wages go straight into the economy, boosting demand, growing businesses and leading to more jobs. This happens repeatedly, for decades in many locations. What makes you think that the reverse would happen this one time?
Washington Nearsider says
Every single time the minimum wage has been raised, the unemployment rate of minority and lower-education employees has risen.
That is not a theory, it’s a fact, according to the National Bureau of Economic Research’s report published in June, 2014.
http://www.nber.org/papers/w20724?utm_campaign=ntw&utm_medium=email&utm_source=ntw
lairdp says
Thanks for posting a link to data. Unfortunately, other than a brief summary it’s not readable, unless you are a paid subscriber to the service. Has any of it been published where I could read it?
Washington Nearsider says
I’ve had a subscription for years, so I apologize for the paywall.
You can start here.
PDF warning: http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~jsabia/docs/Sabia_Burkhauser_Hansen_ILLR2012.pdf
lairdp says
Interesting analysis – thanks for positing it. One odd thing I noticed is that in this analysis (of one state over a four year period when the minimum wage went up) they didn’t actually show the impact of increased minimum wages on individuals, but on aggregate statistics. So when the minimum wage went up, the percentage of the population making low wages went down, but, interestingly enough, the percentage of the population making higher wages went up. So it’s not at all clear whether this means that low-wage earners were fired or whether wages went up so that people shifted from lower wage brackets to higher wage brackets. Also, they referenced quite a few other analysis in other states with differing results, including some that showed a boost in employment after the minimum wage went up (e.g. like Seatac). I do know that where I’ve lived, the increased minimum wage led to businesses growing and more hiring, but from from this report the statistics are more murky… but it’s data, yay!
Washington Nearsider says
That is the fun part about data. It can end up confirming pre-existing biases quite easily.
What is simple economic fact though, is that if you make something cost more, you’ll get less of it. This is why, at the most base level, I oppose federally raising the minimum wage.
States in which the cost of living is lower would be disproportionately damaged because their labor costs have risen out of sync with their cost of living. For example, a $15/hr minimum wage in New York City probably won’t get you as far as it would in Mississippi. In Mississippi though, things cost less.
I’d prefer a state-by-state solution, but I don’t think anyone’s listening to me.
Kelly says
I feel sorry for you. I can’t believe you are unable to realize facts are facts. I hope you enjoyed your change, because I know after this liberal agenda that is all we will have. Mr. Foo you are a fool.
リチャード! says
Often times the hardest job to get is the first one, and not everyone can afford to take a unpaid internship (the way people from well off families get job experience to put on their resume) and to work for free in exchange for being able have something to write on their resume. Having a $15 minimum wage makes it very hard for some young people to get their foot in the door into their first job while they may still be at least somewhat dependent on their parents, because a lot of times when you don’t have job experience, your labor might not even be worth $15 an hour to your potential employer. At some small shops the revenue produced by one employee might not even be $15 an hour on average (good bye to those jobs, hello more unemployment). I think this is something people may not have totally considered.
Adam says
Restaurants should not be included in this law because they operate on a different basis for how their workers acquire money. They are set up to run in this fashion and their employees often make well over 15 dollars an hour due to tips. If we screw with this arrangement we will end this business and turn it into something else much less desired…It adds a culture to the city that will diminish greatly
jhnjdy says
I should open a cooking school for all those liberal wives that will soon have to cook for their other !
Patrick D. Foster says
WA morons once again leading the way to socialism
Richard Winchester says
I love watching the left in action, as long as it not in my state. 🙂
Brian Williams says
Here’s a thought, maybe it’s time to give small businesses the tax breaks that the large corporations get. They obviously need it more.
Jason says
What some folks don’t realize is that the $15 minimum wage hike will force some business’ to close permanently.
A James Murray says
Morons.
cherylpine says
does anyone else notice Facebook will not share this article?
Barbara Ellis says
If raising the minimum wage actually solved anything, we should live in a perfect world by now as many times as it has been raised. The reason it isn’t a perfect world is that every time the minimum wage is raised, everything else is also raised. This includes the number of unskilled workers who think they deserve to earn big money without putting in the time and effort to acquire skills that deserve better pay.
jeff_jos72 says
As predicted by people who know how economics work.
Washington Nearsider says
This is what they voted for. Let them have it, good and hard.
I’m wondering, do the city’s tax revenues go up or down when businesses close? Can any of the liberals here help me out?
tensor says
I’m wondering, do the city’s tax revenues go up or down when businesses close? Can any of the liberals here help me out?
Could you tell us why fifteen years of consecutive increases in Washington state’s minimum wage produced rates of higher economic growth, lower unemployment, and lower poverty, than the national averages? How about you help us out on that?
Washington Nearsider says
Certainly.
Washington State has no income tax and has the 6th best state business tax environment.
The authors of the one single study to support your claims should have attempted to isolate the effect of the minimum wage on the one portion of the population that we know are almost entirely low-skilled: teenagers.
Google “Washington Minimum Wage Teenage Unemployment” and you’ll discover Washington state is one of the five worst states for teen unemployment (30.6% – nearly 10% higher than the national average).
Washington’s minimum wage hikes have nothing to do with your overall economic growth. That’s explained by Washington’s pro-business tax policies. Isolating minimum wage on the one group you’re most trying to help proves (again, and definitively) that minimum wage hikes devastate unskilled workers.
See? All that required was a basic understand of how economics works.
tensor says
The authors of the one single study to support your claims…
Which study was that? I quoted news stories from Bloomberg Businesss News and CNN Money.
… should have attempted to isolate the effect of the minimum wage on the one portion of the population that we know are almost entirely low-skilled: teenagers.
Also known as the population most likely to be in school full time. Maybe you should account for that factor?
Before I-688 passed, Washington’s teen unemployment was lower than the national average. Every year since it’s passage (1999), teen unemployment has climbed at a faster rate than that of the nation’s.
[Citation needed.]
Google “Washington Minimum Wage Teenage Unemployment” and you’ll discover Washington state is one of the five worst states for teen unemployment (30.6% – nearly 10% higher than the national average).
Did your source, whatever it was, correct for the number of teenagers who continue in school full-time after earning their high-school diplomas?
Washington’s minimum wage hikes have nothing to do with your overall economic growth.
Assertions made without evidence may be dismissed without evidence.
Isolating minimum wage on the one group you’re most trying to help…
Who ever said teenage workers were the “one group” the minimum wage law was “most trying to help”?
So, Washington state has experienced fifteen-plus years of economic growth above the national average, after opponents of I-688 told us it would damage our economy. You’ve got some unsupported assertions and un-named sources. Voters here know which to believe.
BENJAMIN FRANKLIN says
tensor, have you heard of the Trialateral Commission? Do you believe that this commission that started in 1973 with USA, China and Russia is trying to do away with national boundaries to form one body of government? Citation: http://www.theendrun.com/the-trilateral-commission-usurping-sovereignty
.
In 1981 people were warned by Hollywood through 1981 sitcom Barney Miller, the 89% never took it serious. This commission is working with David Rockeffeler to do reorganizeworld finances and governments. It is happening gradually, everything is in place, just waiting for chaos, and the right moment.
.
Did you know the 9/11 was suppose to be the tipping point of the new world order, but the American People did not panic and caused chaos that could have sprung up around the world.
.
Did you know most of the liberals publically supported the Arab Spring which fueled disruption of governments and wars around the middleast? –the 9/11 was suppose to do that around the western world. You don’t believe it?
.
Did you know that Bush, Sr. envisioned the New World Order in 9/11/1990. Citation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txukr5zgHnw
.
Is it a coincidence that Bush, Sr. said that 11 years prior to the 9/11. Look at the number 11, does that remind you of anything? If you just dismiss it. as if. the 10% is crazy, well it’s okay just trust Bloomberg and CNN they guide you in the path of shiny objects.
.
I am telling you that your WA economy will collapse due to an event that will cause chaos around the country and the European countries. The US dollar will lose its credibility as the world currency and a new world currency will take place– the paving of the new world government aka United Nations.
.
It is not certain what is the exact spark that will cause chaos, but I have a good idea, but I rather not say–you won’t believe it anyway. Look around there are specific events that have happened around the USA and the world –put them together and you will see too. I gave you many hints and statistics on different occasions, but you still cannot put the puzzle together.
.
Last, google this ” MEDVEDEV: This Coin is Harbinger of New International Currency ” It was a G8 meeting in L’Aquila, Italy in 2010. Still the 89% did not see what is going on. The information is out there, but people just keep the blinders on by reading the Gospel of Bloomberg, CNN, Fox, etc…
The pot is simmering once it reaches the boiling point you shall see where you are standing, but it will be too late. Right now, Big Daddy is pacifying you by showing the shiny object with their left hand so that you don’t see what they are doing with the right hand.
.
I gave you many hints and you still fail to see passed the shiny objects that your Big Daddy is showing you with their left hand. If you still don’t get that both DEM and REP are in cahootz with the UN. Who helped create the UN? Find out.
DVPFLA says
I suggest making the minimum wage and maximum wage $100.00 per hour.
That way we can all be equal that way….
Of course some of us will need to be more equal than others..
Liberal thinking.
OhioGolfer says
Let ’em put the minimum wage wherever they want . When the menu prices double, or worse, and the service slides the restaurants will close…..and people will be asking …”I wonder why they closed?”
janedarcy says
Why can Restaurants in Europe survive paying similar wages?
mediapostate says
Easy. Fewer restaurants. Higher unemployment rates.
Scott Shackelford says
If Seattle was too stupid than to see this would happen, then they get what they deserve. I hope these business owners are able to reopen in the suburbs or another area. The fast food joints will replace the cashiers with automated machines but the better restaurants will have to jack up prices substantially. Restaurants run on pretty thin margins as it is. Liberal idiots
Mike says
With regards to restaurant and fast food workers sector – Any restaurant workers who lose their jobs will get another one at $15.00 within a few hours or days. Nobody stays unemployed in the restaurant business for long. And any restaurant owners who close solely because they can’t meet a 15.00 wage probably shouldn’t have been still in business anyway. Workers will benefit and weak businesses will be culled out. Good riddance.
Doug says
“weak businesses will be culled out. Good riddance.” I agree. Let’s raise the minimum wage to $25/hour, and get rid of all the rest of the weak businesses while we’re at it! Heave, ho!
Jackie Treehorn says
Why $25? Make it $100 an hour so that the poor can really get a leg up.
starskyhutch69 says
Really?!? If your restaurant is closing because of the wage increase, which I have a hard time believing it is the only reason for anyone to close, call me. I can rearrange your business model to easily accommodate the new wages.
Or, if you can’t work this out then maybe it is time for you to close. It isn’t that hard to adjust your pricing to accommodate the change.
Doug says
Just out of curiosity, Mr, Hutch, have you ever owned and operated a business? You claim to have some expertise in the matter, so I’m just wondering on what you base that claim.
Scott says
We are all bashing each other for our opposite and varying views on this subject, but has anyone thought about why we are having this discussion? It is because POLITICIANS in government impose taxes, and legislation, to determine what one person should pay and what another person should get, but there is NEVER any discussion among themselves as to what they should be paid. Their answer to themselves is simple. Pay ourselves MORE! Their jobs consist of SITTING in meetings, TALKING on the phone, LEAR-JETTING across country (or across town) to meet with constituents (wake up, there is a cheap meeting tool called SKYPE). Yet these fat-cats can’t see fit to spread the luxury and wealth with the working man. The laws of economics are geared to benefit only the mighty, leaving us to fight it out among ourselves.
Will says
If you have a restaurant that brings in $700,000 a year, I find it hard to believe the owner is only getting $28,000.
Tom says
Read the article. It’s all explained.
Tammy says
…that would be the net profit
Tom says
Anyone whose job can be replaced by an iPad should not be demanding $15 an hour.
DrJedi001 says
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.
John Galt says
Here’s the really confusing part: Employees working for minimum wage are very likely surviving off of government assistance. Thus, indirectly, the low retail prices we all enjoy as customers are subsidised. Raising minimum wage (making more laws for entitlement to fix laws for entitlement) will shift responsibility back to the employers. They will then pass this new expense on to the customer in the form of higher retail prices.
It is so baffling to me that people think the government, or businesses have this bottomless spending limit and that you can simply “increase minimum wage to make poor peoples lives better”. It ignores every law of production, economics and common sense. Value is determined by supply and demand, period. If Burger King is paying someone $15 dollars an hour to wrap up your burger, the dollar menu becomes the three dollar menu. Prices will rise until that $15 is worth exactly what $8.50 was worth when it was the minimum wage. Do you guys really think the government is doing all this to help poor people?
I’m just waiting for some Mcdonald’s Microwave Operator to ask why money even exists and then wonder why no one wants to give him any.
Why don’t we stop punishing valuable business owners and spend that socialist money on education so we won’t have to work crappy jobs for the rest of our lives.
John Galt says
If you want the poor to be wealthier, then we, as a country must become wealthier. We must focus on making ourselves more productive, and create social programs that nurture THAT, not create dependents. INVEST in the workforce of this country, don’t turn them into a charity.
Simon says
Possibly time to move to the tipless model as a solution. About time for this unintended consequence.
http://jayporter.com/dispatches/observations-from-a-tipless-restaurant-part-1-overview/
Bill Gaw says
Nonsense, pure and simple.http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/09/14/15-now-seatac/
ycamerpus says
Minimum wage was never intended to support a family. My only regret is that I’m not a16 year old high school student getting my first job in today’s world, with little to no expenses and a job that pays $15.00/hr to flip burgers or run shopping carts from the parking lot back to the store.
Jackie Treehorn says
The 16 year old is not going to get that job anymore. The 16 year old will move right into adulthood without ever having the experience of a job and knowing how to value the dollar he/she’s earned.
Ken says
I for one, am looking forward to the degradation of the Seattle small business owner market. This wonderful experiment is going to drive people out of places that were once affordable and right into a place like Starbucks. This can only be a boon for the stocks I own. LOL Thank you Seattle for doing in one blow that which not even obama himself could accomplish with his pen. LMAO. I cannot wait to cash in on this fubar decision.
Mark Cook says
A fair wage I heard that before. Oh I know who said that Vladimir Lenin said that. Know your history and learn something. Things like justice for all it’s a human right. Some words sound great but have a hidden meaning. Look at what happens every time the minimum wage is lifted. I’m a plumber I make 24hr they raise it to 15hr cost of every thing goes up with in 2 to 3 years. The middle class don’t get a raise we stay the same get poorer. The people it going to help go right back where they was before. Now you just made more poor people. It’s the facts if you stop and learn for your self and not just listen to MSNBC or the left wing media you might learn something. It’s simple this stuff don’t work it just makes everyone poor. WAKE UP PEOPLE FACTS ARE OUT THERE IF YOU JUST LEARN FOR YOUR SELF AND STOP THINKING EVERY THING THE TV TELLS YOU IS TRUE. What has happen in the 50 years program after program and no one is better for it. I think we need to go back to what this country was founded for FREEDOM. If you think GOV the answer better look at the last 50 years. Help people yes give them a free ride for life no. Give a man a fish feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish feed him for life.
Tammy says
There was a recent article in the Seattle Times about the abysmal growth numbers for the middle class in the area. Most moving into the area are below the poverty line and then there is the rich. Middle class has been squeezed out. They have a huge problem on their hands….wonder why?
kurt9 says
I think some sort of automation will be developed to replace some of the human labor in restaurants. Ordering from table tablets, picking up one’s dishes from a central counter, paying at the door. Anything to reduce the amount of labor outside the work of the chef him or her self will be done. There are those who advocated higher minimum wages specifically for this reason. Technological innovation drives productivity increases and Seattle becomes the domain of higher income people.
Louise Mitchell says
Told you this was going to happen
Tony Christensen says
Bunch if whining arse resteraunts. Just too damned cheap to pay their workers. I don’t feel one bit sorry for them.
CJK5H says
These are some major BS numbers. If you can’t keep labor under 36% in a standard restaurant, you aren’t competent.
tonym says
If the starting salary is $15 for unskilled workers then the others should be paid appropriately as well. Let’s pass a law that provides cooks $50 per hr. Hat check $25, Wait staff $25 no problems here. BTW where is my $100 burger?
Hoppyman50 says
This is what happens when the idiots in the city elect a communist to become mayor, this city will become like all cities in the US that have had progressives at the helm, pure failure!
YouMustBeMistaken says
Why would anyone want to vacation to Seattle? Oh, yeah. Maybe to see the Big Dig.
Jokersmile says
Nope, the strong eateries will adjust the one on the edge will go away. Food service is a .10 cent on the dollar business so if you run your business correctly no problem.
g8orbill says
not sure how the people who passed this new min wage could not have realized this is what would happen
borgcube says
Easy. Because most likely not a single one of them has actually ever been an entrepreneur and opened a business and risked everything they had, let alone done so successfully. Let’s take a look at the sitting city council.
Sally Bagshaw. Lifelong attorney working for government. No private sector business experience. None. Zippo.
Tim Burgess. Lifelong government employee (45 years) and “global anti-poverty worker.” Good grief.
Sally Clark: Lifelong activist journalist. Perfect.
Jean Godden. Lifelong journalist. But she was known for her restaurant food reviews, so she knows all about running them too and stuff.
Bruce Harrell. A public service employee since 1979. A lawyer too who has represented nothing but leftist groups for his career. Shocking I know.
Nick Lacata. Also serving nothing but government and non-profits with other people’s money proudly since 1979. You go Nick!
Mike O’Brien. A money guy. For law firms. Not his own money of course. Nope. Never.
Tom Rasmussen. Lawyer. Surprise! Has only worked for government and far left leading causes. Has never even thought about trying his luck at a lemonade stand.
Kshama Sawant. What more needs to be said about that lunatic? She makes Hugo Chavez seem like Ronald Reagan.
So yes g8orbill…THAT’S how it happened. Any questions? Their bios are even worse than I expected in this regard. Not a single person on the city council has any real world private sector entrepreneurial experience.
Jennelea says
It will also reduce young people managing their way through college, as many workers are also students. Or people in the entertainment industry, between gigs, or getting a foot in the door. Many people need these jobs and pay taxes. So with less jobs, less income from the taxpayer. Less restaurants mean less providers of food, and products. Again fewer taxpayers, and more people having to be on the welfare roles. it just spirals. Democrats wanting the higher wages, have no concept of how their forcing business to do their bidding, skyrockets out of control for the entire economy.
Hellebore says
This is Democrat policies working to improve the lives of everyone.
How’s that Socialist idealism working for you now?
Common Sense says
The numbers given in this article do not make sense… “he estimates that the average restauranteur in Seattle has been making $28,000 a year”
For a $28,000 per year salary, a single owner would make around $13.46 per hour ($28,000/(40hours per week * 52 weeks) in a 40 hour week.
I do not think a single owner – probably working much more that 40 hours pr week – would out put up with that. The owner might as well work for someone else at the $15 per hour rate.
kidcat24 says
To those that always say get some skills. Like schooling? So tell me how do you pay for schooling on minimum wage?
Ilpalazzo says
Isn’t it great? I’m noticing a trend here. People from other countries who’ve only spent less than half their lives in the US pander to voters by playing on ultimate utopian ideals (that have no basis in facts) to get elected and then the reality ends up destroying many non-corporate businesses. Maybe it’s best NOT to vote for foreigners after all!
Note: Wait till Tennesee starts getting more Murfreesboro Muslim representatives talking about how Islam is against all taxes and that’s great for the American people. So you get people voting for them, only to realize without taxes, their town is reduced to nothing but a small goat farm like Pakistan.
Tom B says
Let a politician try to run an economy and they destroy it everytime.
Guy Fleegman says
We are all missing the point here…what about the foodies? Think of the foodies, people…for the love of what will they do? I know, let’s have a fundraiser for them…
mmercier0921 says
The establishments that can charge $500 for dinner will be just fine. Those really are the only establishments who should be allowed to economically survive in such an enlightened and sophisticated enclave anyhow.
Michael Noah says
Nothing like minimum wage when you’re unemployed! But hey, be happy someone else is still working, even if you are not! There’s always food stamps and unemployment, and that still pays better!! Whoo whoo! Another “progressive” success story!!
Southernationalist says
How will these Marxist animals stop people from voting with their feet?
Asok Asus says
The day is not far off when fast food places have two employees per shift, mostly for logistics and janitorial: one to load the raw ingredients from the supply trucks into the mini-food-factory and one to take out the trash and keep the place clean.
And it won’t be long now. If you’ve ever watched the TV show “Food Factory”, you can see it’s feasible to automate an entire fast food restaurant. It’s just a matter of economics now, namely, when will it be cheaper and less trouble to mass produce and install fast food restaurant mini-food-factories vs. dealing with the increasing headaches of the increasingly expensive complement of unskilled fast food restaurant labor.
Commander8080 says
It might not be two; however, it will be far fewer than it is now. Restaurants like Chili’s and Applebee’s will do away with servers all together and go with Table Kiosk and food runners. Even the hostess could be replaced with a touch screen system.
I can see where people can order Mc Donald from there phone and pay for it. Once they drive on the lot, the Mc Donald server will pick up their cell phone signal and will accept the order and the payment will be released to the store and completing the transaction. All the driver needs to do is stop by the window and there order will be waiting for them.
Fast food industry will change radically in the next 10 years and in 15 we will be asking ourselves why we ever did it the old way. Those who do dont adapt will not survive. My advice is aquire a skill set, fast food is not a skill set.
Fleagus Gustafario says
Why should people even be working in these jobs though? We should automate meaningless and unfulfilling jobs, but we need to change our economics in other areas to deal with it. It could be a good thing.
Independent "Terrorist" says
So its clear that all the feel good socialists have never run a business. Waiters make great money, except where the cheap lefties live, and they dont tip… Cooks can do well as they work their way up…. I’m sure the Seattle Elitists thought they were saving someone, doing good.. but in the end, as so many times before… good intentions run a muck…
Menschmachine says
Hey dumb ass socialist Democrats; if gubmint can improve an employee’s standard of living by mandating $15 per hour, why not mandate $25 per hour??? Where’s your HUMANITY, socialists? Why don’t you just mandate that everybody who earns more than $15/hr give that “excess” above $15 to some poor needy soul who just wants to live the good life! Oh, wait a minute, I’m talking about red China, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela, and all the other socialist crap holes founded on the idea of “HUMANITY”.
Commander8080 says
I have watched this debate for over 30 years know and I have noticed one thing. The people on minimum wage 30 years ago are no better off than the people on minimum wage now. Any windfall that a worker gains with a hike in minimum wage is short lived. Other items will increase over the next few years to strip that winfall away and that person will be exactly right back where they are now. However, for those workers making more than minimum wage, lets say $16 an hour. History, shows those wages will remain the same and will not increase with the minimum wage. However, they will feel the full effect of the increase.
And for those who what to know my qualification, I have an MBA and I have been a business consultant for the past 20 years and owned a few companies.
Southern Wolf says
This is how a great depression comes about. FDR’s policies made the first one and Obama’s is making this one.
Guest says
The Great Depression began in 1929.
FDR didn’t become president until 1933.
Learn some history.
Dinobot says
It began in 1929, but FDR unknowingly prolonged the blasted thing until the United States began to go shift into war time economy prior to the United States entry to WWII.
mediapostate says
“unknowingly prolonged the blasted thing…” BIGTIME. Like for the rest of the decade. And he’s held up by Progs as a model.
Southern Wolf says
That is what the left claims, to this day they blame Hoover, not FDR just as they blame Bush not Obama.
Fleagus Gustafario says
I’m concerned with how many ignorant people there are out there, lining up to defend the wrong people..I kind of feel like we’re Nazi Germany in the Early 1930’s.
Don Bailey says
This is the “fundamental change” low information lib voters voted for. Enjoy.
Vladamir says
Isn’t it funny how anything the left deems is “good for us” has to be mandated and backed up by either taxes or fines?
Menschmachine says
Hey, I’d like to make $250/hr. Option A: I could go to law school, study my ass off for 3 years, take a year to pass the bar, then start my own firm working 18 hours per day, 7 days a week. Or…..Option B: I could just get gubmint to mandate that my employer pay me $250/hour. I’ll be a dumb ass Democrat and vote for Option B. After all, the Democrat party is all about equality, humanity and fairness, right? It is the party of Sumfin Fer Nuttin, right?
Commander8080 says
Have you noticed that Democrats who made it do not want others to succeed? A true conservative wants everyone to succeed. I want hundreds if not thousands of Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. The more that succeed the better everyone is, even those in minimum wage position.
Guest says
Wonder if all those bikini coffee shops are going to close?
Fleagus Gustafario says
Nope, everything will be fine, you’ll start to see statistics of people moving to Seattle faster than other cities, and it being more affluent than the rest of the country.
Gooseontheloose says
Let the $15.00 an hour take hold and eliminate tipping.
Fleagus Gustafario says
A lot of times workers make less on 9+tips than they would on 15 and no tips.
Just add a $2 living wage surcharge on bills when people go to eat at a restaurant, they are already spending $20-$50 anyway, they won’t notice.
I am proud to Live in WA, we pay tipped workers the same wage as regular workers. We have a booming restaurant industry here. In states where they pay tipped workers $2/hr, they actually have much more sluggish restaurant activity, I’m not surprised at all.
It’s what Henry Ford noticed, pay your workers well, and they can afford to buy your products.
Gooseontheloose says
I live in New Zealand and tipping is alien to our service industry and hospitality workers are paid normal wages for a semi-skilled position.
Fleagus Gustafario says
Good, that’s how we should do it here! I agree with you. I’d maybe say we should have that, plus tips as extra, but tips should never supplement a living wage…but most of our policy makers don’t think like me. But I do live in a state where we do pay the tipped workers the same wages as any other type of worker.
In most states in the US…tipped workers make less than regular minimum wage workers. In some states its $2/hr plus tips…not in my state, but I think it’s cruel!
war_blur says
restaurateur*
Cameron says
profit over people. That’s their angle here
borgcube says
Why don’t you go open a restaurant, hire a bunch of people and show everyone how it’s done since you obviously have the angle here? No? Yeah, that’s what I thought. All talk. How many people do you employ by the way?
Fleagus Gustafario says
How many do you employ?
Cameron says
Lol. Sounds like you’re having a nice conversation with yourself there. You answered your own question you posed to me. Haha. But let’s backup. I don’t need to open a restaurant to have an opinion. Okay? You sound like a little kid on the playground when you speak like that. So please don’t think that whenever someone talks about a subject they have to personally be tied to it. Like, If I said, hey I don’t like this song. It would be like you to reply, “Go write your own song!” Haha, and that’s just dumb.
Menschmachine says
The profit motive enriches both parties to the transaction. Both employer and employee profit in a free exchange of wages for labor. Seattle’s minimum wage law only destroys jobs and economic opportunity, especially for minorities, who are disproportionately harmed by the loss of entry-level job opportunities.
Cameron says
you can say with a straight face that both parties are “enriched?” The cold truth is millions of people In the United States live at or below the poverty line, and that’s not acceptable. Notions such as this are a help to commom workers. Yeah, it sucks for small business that hang by a thread, but for big businesses who pay their employees bare minimum, this is a much overdue step in the right direction.
Bubba Van Damme says
How can you have profit if you’re not open for business anymore?
sand90000 says
the comments here are hilarious. Yeah, theres a lot of lazy people, but theres no getting around that wages have not kept up over the years. Period. Learning skills to make more money is a fine idea, as long as their opportunities to do that- because theres no way they’d ever be able to afford it on their own. Maybe in the past it was possible, but not so much anymore. Ironically, the same people that oppose higher min wage are the same that oppose work and educational programs.
$15/hr makes Seattle a more attractive place to live too. The only thing holding my wife and I back was the cost of living vs wage, now it seems doable. Granted, its not actually $15 yet….
Fatcats that cry “socialism” and have no perspective forget that the foundation that supports them will crumble if not taken care of.
Menschmachine says
Your socialist economic philosophy is a failure which is the exact point of the article. The free marked employs more people at a higher wage than centralized economic planning ever has. The greatest economic power in history was produced by the free market, not some self-styled brains trust of enlightened bureaucrats. And by the way, some schlub with a $400 haircut runs for office and all of a sudden they know how to make decisions better than the free market?. How does that happen?
Fleagus Gustafario says
Seattle is one of the fastest growing large cities in America. Legal weed and higher wages is definitely a factor.
Even if it’s not as great as it sounds, the vibe of what it’s trying to do attracts more activity, and hence more business.
A lot of times it’s not necessarily what you do, but what you do that sets the tone for positive change.
Menschmachine says
Venezuela is a perfect
example of Seattle’s socialist philosophy of dictating market prices. Venezuela now has shortages of medical supplies, food and toilet paper, because the gubmint presupposes to know what “fair” prices are. Seattle’s losing businesses and jobs precisely because the gubmint is mandating costs that are unsustainable. It’s hurting EVERYBODY in Seattle, and helping no one.
kyleyoder says
It’s helping the politburo and party heads, which is what its intentions are
Steve Dye says
$15 per hour is pathetic!!!! This should be $25 an hour. Who can live off $15 an hour? Capitalist pigs!
Fleagus Gustafario says
With a guaranteed personal income program (social security for all) this can actually be done effectively. Remove the cap on social security all the way to billionaire, and then provide social security to every adult..and then what you get through social security is just extra on top of what you make from work.
Steve Dye says
If we just went full communism this would be all better.
Edward Bustamante says
Where would the $ for that “extra social security” come from? Our country is almost 18 trillion dollars in debt now, and we’re already having to borrow to pay out the social security as it is now. Do you know how to add and subtract? Have you EVER balanced a checkbook? Lol
Menschmachine says
Socialism produces only poverty and misery. It’s a lie that the government can mandate anyone’s prosperity. Every socialist economy on earth has either failed or is collapsing now. Just look at Europe. Do you think that somehow the politicians in Seattle can create more prosperity that the politicians in Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain, where their economies are being crushed by inflation and unemployment?
Cameron says
Careful, Mens! Denmark was listed as the country with the happiest citizens last year, and it has a socialist government.
Menschmachine says
The following countries were
socialist; Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany, North Korea, China, Vietnam, Cambodia,
Cuba, and Venezuela. Seattle’s
government officials (all Democrats?) have adopted the same economic
philosophy. Those socialist countries
all mandated the wage to be paid to employees, and they were and are stunning economic
failures. Why will Seattle suddenly be
different?
Menschmachine says
So what happened to freedom to contract for the amount you get in exchange for your labor? If wages are too low, no one will offer to work until the employer offers a wage acceptable to the employee. If the current wage level is too low, why don’t all the minimum wage employees just stop working? It’s a Democrat lie that the current wage cannot sustain current workers and needs government-mandated increases. The fact that people work for the current wage is proof that it is not too low.
Menschmachine says
Minimum wage workers account for less than 5% of all hourly workers. Minimum wage jobs are typically entry level jobs which workers leave after gaining job skills and experience. The main beneficiary from increased minimum wages are unions with wage
rates tied to the minimum wage. Minimum wage goes up, union scale labor goes up.
Menschmachine says
Here’s how it works. Unions contribute hundreds of millions of dollars to Democrat candidates. Democrat candidates win office and mandate higher minimum wages. Minimum wages increase and union labor scales increase, and union dues increase, and union contributions to the Democrat party increase. And it starts all over again.
Ddad99 says
But we were assured that raising the minimum wage would have no impact on jobs. Maybe these business owners should just pay the increased wages from their billions in profits.
Fleagus Gustafario says
They don’t have billions in profits. Probably more like millions, or a few hundred thousand a year in net profits.
staticfl says
Enjoy it liberals…
Common Sense says
People, none of you can predict with certainty what will actually happen. So your suggestions are mostly meaningless. Heck, not even the ‘experts’ predicted the 2008 market crash.
In our current society (and throughout history) those in power – politically and monetarily – will abuse those without it no matter what system is used; socialism, capitalism, liberalism, conservatism, or any other …ism.
Those with the power strongly believe they deserve it and those without it had it coming (sound similar to a monarchy).
Those that are in favor of the $15 ‘increase’ argue that it will help the people in the bottom.
Those against it say that it will hurt, but offer no real viable way to reduce the wealth gap that has taken place in America over the past decades.
So post real and viable solutions, but it won’t matter because most of us are not with the right connections politically or monetarily.
Fleagus Gustafario says
I totally agree with you. It’s totally common sense.
Edward Bustamante says
The only way to “reduce the wealth gap” as you put it is to bring back the manufacturing jobs that built our middle class to begin with. This cannot happen while we have the highest corporate tax rate on the planet, the strictest labor/safety regulations, and the strictest (costly) environmental regulations. Manufacturers will simply open factories in places like Mexico, Singapore, China, etc where they can pay less for labor, materials, electricity, as well as not having the expense of complying with OSHA, Unions, EPA, etc. Its not rocket science. Get a clue.
Lauren the Librarian says
The $15 minimum wage doesn’t go into effect until 2021 for most employees. It’s $11 starting April 1st 2015.
Steve Dye says
It seems it may be time to sell your Washington based business or product line it as you aren’t welcome there. Anyone in the area with a manufacturing business that is relocatable under $10mil in revenue can send me a note at sellmfgbusiness at yahoo.com.
Devin W Congema says
Here is the moral argument if two people are voluntarily negotiating a wage do you advocate the government or some other third party to use violence against the employer(in the form of shutting a business down or fines etc…) if the wage agreed upon is not good enough for you… who strangely enough is not part of this “voluntary” interaction?
akjim99 says
Well, yeah, freaken’ duh! Did they not figure this out before?
boyd2 says
If you go to any paper in a mono-ideological culture like Seattle is and point out reasons for policy failures you always get a hoard of Liberal apologists claiming it’s the Republicans/Conservatives/Reagans/Whoevers fault. They’ll twist, they’ll spin, they’ll do anything but admit their decades of exclusive control over their local governments and schools is the root of their own undoing. Followed, of course, by claims that the real problem is Cons/Reps/etc. obstructed them and didn’t let them go far enough fast enough for them to succeed. So here is my question for Conservatives posting here. Why show up in these comment sections of Liberal newspapers and cities to argue against these people? The signs are everywhere that their entire Progressive enterprise is starting to come undone. Why stand in their way by arguing to slow the process? They clearly are not going to admit their folly till we are all standing on a corner selling apples so lets just help things in their local neighborhood come to a head. $15 minimum wage. Are you kidding me! It should have been at least $30! Rent Controls! Free College! Minimum Guaranteed Income! From each according to his ability, to each according to his need! Somebody cue The International! Where is that damn Flat Cap anyway.
brock2118 says
Eating at home is safer any way.
kyleyoder says
If the communists are so concerned with the “little guy” as they claim, why not lower taxes?
lbrty2112 says
Pass the popcorn. The train is about to jump the tracks!
EYang says
The sad part is conservatives and libertarians could have told you this is the natural result of trying to set an artificial wage floor.
Sharknado says
Liberals destroy everything they come into contact with…no exceptions.
G E Marley says
Restaurants close down everyday for many reasons. The ones staying in business now will see an increase in their business. There will more people with more money to enjoy their product and less competition. Personally I think it is the increase in rents that is causing these places to close.
j95lee says
But the article says the min wage hike is a major reason behind restaurant closures.
If there was a MAD dash to your business because every one of your competition went away, then you won’t be able to handle the demand. Not unless your business was a chain (like Mcdonalds) to begin with. The surviving restaurant will have to expand or hire more workers, meaning the owner will be affected by higher minimum wage one way or another.
The Denny’s and TGIF (don’t if they operate in Oregon) will be the ones to benefit if mom and pop and upscale store close down, not your local taco shop.
Kevin says
It’s interesting. We have now more than ever before “breadwinners” for families working at minimum wage jobs. What happened to the breadwinner jobs? They are gone! When I was young it was my peers that worked these jobs. Students mainly. Not any more. When I was young it was my teen friends that worked at McDonalds. Not anymore. They are people trying to raise families. The rate of minimum wage is not the problem. It’s this country’s loss of jobs that is the problem.
websearcher says
Yawn. As Seattle Magazine points out…
“….about 60,000 restaurants open and about 50,000 restaurants close in an average year.”
Meaning that restaurants close all the time. This year is nothing new. But of course right-wingers would like you to think it is all due to wage hikes.
People – take time to read and get all your facts. Don’t be mislead by right-wing nonsense.
Dee says
Unskilled, inexperienced workers will be hit the hardest….the so-called people this was supposed to help. Leftists create more problems with their problematic non-market ‘fixes’. glad I don’t live in Seattle. Leftists are willing to destroy everything for misguided ‘solutions’.
Bradley Whaley says
I also want to comment on your naïveté regarding the nature of people, but to think people won’t react negatively to price increases to food prices as an end result, you are living in a different universe. Restaurant customers take finicky to a whole different level. I would expect a great loss in loyalty. Do you think the Socialists or their Democratic puppets will take responsibility? Please don’t answer until you thoroughly contemplate your answer.
Bradley Whaley says
This is directed to Mr Foo
geschtonkenflapped says
The average restaurant has 15 employees. Assuming 50 hours per week per employee, that’s $5,775 assuming $7 minimum wage and 10 hours time and a half. Now, with $15 minimum wage that’s $12,375 for a difference of $6,600. The average restaurant gets 150-200 customers per day the median income per customer is $22.50. That’s $20,250 per week, and assuming the hours above, that leave $7,875 left over each week after paying employees. The average food cost for a restaurant is 25% of the income. That’s $5,062.50 in our example. That leaves $2,812.50 for other expenses each week. That’s about $143,000 per year. A restaurant of this size would need about 2,500 sqft to be conservative and to be more conservative, let’s assume $2.50 per square foot per month for rent, which brings us to $6,250 per month in rent. That’s about $1,453.50 per week, which leaves $1,359 per week for other costs, about $72,000 per year. The average restaurant pays $2.90 per sqft for electricity + $0.85 per sqft for gas. That’s $9,375 per year in utilities leaving $62,625. All of these numbers are very conservatively pulled out of my ass but are based on national averages and padded a bit. The average restaurant employee isn’t going to be doing 50 hour weeks first of all, and really, there’s no such thing as an average restaurant. We’d have to be way more specific. Anyway, my point is… Any average profitable restaurant that is closing because it can’t divert $6,000 a year more towards its employees is simply not a successful restaurant. That’s not even $150 a week.
Also $15/hr minimum wage is being slowly rolled in, it won’t be that till like 2020. See here:http://murray.seattle.gov/minimumwage/
And not only that, 25% of restaurants fail within the first year, and 50% fail within 3 years.
I promise you not a single restaurant in Seattle is closing because of the upcoming $15/hr minimum wage raise, because that won’t happen for 5-7 years.
And not only that, tips count towards the required $15/hr.
This site is basically right-wing bullshit.
Dutchie says
What restaurants have closed because of this?
the Boodge says
For the past 100 years progressive/commie/Marxist/liberal political leaders have been destroying this once great nation! Way to go a’holes…
Buddy says
Seattle Socialist, Minimum Waged for Thee, Not For Me: http://dailycaller.com/2014/10/20/socialist-party-demanding-20-minimum-wage-insists-it-should-not-be-subject-to-20-minimum-wage/
Capitol sense says
At a $15 dollar per hour starting wage; the employer can easily require at minimum a Culinary Associates degree. Therefore, the unskilled protesters will eventually become unemployed due to getting what they wished for.
Daniel Embody says
If employers paid a living wage, more people could afford to have stay at home housewives (and house husbands for working women too). With that, we would not need as many fast food restaurants. Workers would have their dinner cooked at home. Restaurants would be a once and a while luxury instead of a daily necessity.
bubba says
No it’s a democrat problem. I usually consider democrats socialist or communist. Actually the term Democrat is the most discusting. We know what commies are we just didn’t know that democrats were worse
spikeymikey says
Lies
Cj says
Love that they left out the fact that the $15 an hour does not fully occur until 2021 for small businesses and 2018 for large businesses who provide health insurance and 2017 for large businesses that do not provide health insurance. On April 1, the minimum wage will only be $11 an hour. For those who actually live in Seattle, you know that even $15 an hour is barely enough to rent an apartment, let alone $11 an hour. For those crying ‘get some skills’, it is no longer the uneducated or unskilled worker making minimum wage. That notion is very naive and ignorant. I know people with computer science degrees not getting jobs, a person with a mechanical engineering degree not able to find work, another person in analytical linguistics with programming and web design skills not able to find a decent job, a person who was the top sales person for a national retail store not able to find a decent job…and the list goes on.
Not in Seattle says
Let’s see how that $15/hour minimum wage is rolling over in Seatac…
“Tom Douglas, who runs fifteen restaurants in the Seattle area, warned that a higher minimum wage law being considered by Seattle would force the shutdown of a quarter of his restaurants. Instead, after the results in Seatac, he is opening five new restaurants to meet demand. And this story is being repeated, over and over again, throughout the region.
Well paid employees pump money in to the local economies. This is basic economics, dating back to Adam Smith. Instead of slashing employees, which would impact any businesses ability to support their customers, they have turned to more direct approaches. A good example of this is MasterPark, an off-airport parking lot, which has added a $0.99 daily “Living Wage Surcharge“. Less than a dollar guarantees that MasterPark can give all of its employees a living wage, a small price to pay.
The biggest sign that the higher wage did not impact Seatac however comes with the news that the Seatac airport will be undergoing a half-billion dollar renovation and expansion. The growth of the airport, which as an extra-territorial administrative district does not require the higher minimum wage of the adjoining town, demonstrates that the fears pushed by the Koch Brothers and their multi-million dollar ad campaign are just nonsense.”
(From http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/09/14/15-now-seatac/)
ObnoxiousNox says
Every ghetto you see, I’ll guarantee you will find a democrat in charge. A socialist wouldn’t be a socialist they understood economics.
CBDS says
Do the people that make 15 an hour currently..get bumped up to 25 an hour? lol. Let’s make minimum wage 100 an hour and everyone will be wealthy haha
Joel Peralez says
Ahh, too bad soo sad, capitalist owners have less profits that they extract from labor.
juliabliss says
No seems to take the fact that workers will have more cash in their pocket, and this means more money to spend eating out themselves. It’s all about those poor, poor restaurant owners.
Not only that but the minimum wage is only going to $11 on April 1, won’t make it to $15 until 2017. That’s about $1/hour than they’ve been paying Jan-March, not the break the bank scare-figures that everyone has been led to believe.
But these are just facts, nothing to pay attention to, right?
Fleagus Gustafario says
Many people totally don’t listen to information.
jgpaynejr says
And the chickens come home…to roost!
jgpaynejr says
“Some of the more gullible observers think the issue is whether what some people are making now is ‘a living wage.’ This misconstrues the whole point of hiring someone to do work. Those who are being hired are paid for the value of the work they do.
If their work is really worth more than what their employer is paying them, all they have to do is quit and go work for some other employer, who will pay them what their work is really worth. If they can’t find any other employer who will pay them more, then what makes them think their work is worth more?
As for a ‘living wage,’ the employer is not hiring people in order to acquire dependents and become their meal ticket. He is hiring them for what they produce.”
– Dr. Thomas Sowell, PhD economist, sociologist, award-winning African-American author, and Korean War Marine Veteran
http://m.townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2014/09/13/mob-rule-economics-n1888851/page/full
Rob Jackson says
Watch as the socialist utopia brings nothing but misery and pain! Those that wanted the power of government to force businesses to pay more will see what the heavy hand of government can not do and that is to make businesses stay in business!
Skip Cashwell says
The “average” gratuity left by a patron is 18%. In many establishments that “tip” is pooled and shared by all service workers. Simple solution is that a restaurant initiates and enforces a “no-tipping” policy…and raises its prices by 18% to offset the minimum wage. “No tipping” means that the establishment does not have to report estimated or any earnings by an employee beyond the actual wage paid. Finally, cut out the cost of free food for employees – want to eat the food here? – pay for it.
Rob Jackson says
One thing is tips should NOT be taxed or reported to the facist IRS. It is a gift not a wage so it should have no income value. But this would all be mute if we would open our eyes and pass the national sales tax. Its one way to get rid of the worthless billions of dollars wasted on the IRS every year. Even drug dealers and all those illegals would pay taxes!
cheeflo says
Of course it’s a political problem. The political party responsible for the ordinance does not understand the math.
The writer seems to be more concerned with the loss of amenities than with the loss of jobs.
Me says
Notice the article can’t name one restaurant that has closed because of the reasons listed. Interesting.
recallpost says
Libs get what they voted for.
Paul X says
“It’s not a political problem; it’s a math problem.”
It’s not a math problem either. The problem is that, despite being repeatedly kicked in the teeth by self-serving bureaucrats and people ignorant of basic economics, many restauranteurs will continue to try staying in the business. Everyone will have to work harder, like the Red Queen told Alice, “It takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place.”
It’s not the jerks who keep this abusive system going; it’s the good people, who continue to work within it.
Stop. Walk away. Let the system fail, and let the people learn their lesson. When they finally come to their senses – if they do – then return.
James Hare says
It would be nice if you let your readers know that the article mentions more restaurants that are opening than closing. I guess keeping ideological blinders on your readers is more important than being honest.
MIKE HUNT says
BENGHAZI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Vern Herrst says
Serves the dumbshit employees right what did they think was going to happen the owner continues to loose money
Vern Herrst says
OH poor babies working for a low minimum wage with minimum education and job skills expecting others to feel sorry for idiots
Todd Naz says
I don’t believe these #’s because I was a small business owner myself in Seattle. 700K gross would not net the business owner 28K in real life, that’s total BS. The amount of write offs could end up at the # but their true earnings are more like 200K, 20-25%. If your business is running on that close of a margin then why the hell are you even still open, even before $15 hour. Also prices will be raised to cover cost of business as well. This is a TOTAL BS article IMO.
” “He estimates that a common budget breakdown among sustaining Seattle restaurants so far has been the following: 36 percent of funds are devoted to labor, 30 percent to food costs and 30 percent go to everything else (all other operational costs). The remaining 4 percent has been the profit margin, and as a result, in a $700,000 restaurant, he estimates that the average restauranteur in Seattle has been making $28,000 a year. “
Rob says
Pay attention the average yearly salary of restaurant owners in the Seattle area. This article states 28,000 a year.
Keep that number in mind because its important.
At
15 dollars an hour and assuming you work 40 hours a week, 50 weeks of
the year ( to allow for vacation and sick days), You’d be making 30,000
per year.
That’s
2 thousand dollars more per year than the person who had the idea, the
drive and the passion to create the restaurant in the first place.
You
know, the owner, the person who works 60 plus hours a week, works
every holiday,hardly ever sees their family, and has everything they
own tied up in the success or failure of the business?
That guy or girl.
If youre thinking WTF right now, youre on the right track.
A prime example of ass backwards liberal thinking if I ever saw one and the very antithesis of the American Dream.
Common Sence isn't Common! says
Wow! Now all these people who think they were getting a great wage hike, are now UNEMPLOYED! No wage, $0!! I would take $7.50 over $0. $0 for sure does not pay for rent, food, car, ect. It pays for live on the streets!! Who are these SMART people who think of this shit!! Poli—Ticks never amazes me!! Stupid is as Stupid does! Keep up the good work bureaucrats!
highlanderjuan says
And so the battle of reason, logic, and common sense against government controls is waged. Those who still support government mandates and government theft are numbering fewer and fewer as time goes on. But, that’s a good thing.
Talking about money, how about talking about the value of the almighty dollar? In the 1970 movie ‘Love Story’ the cameras pans across a restaurant window sign that says “Full Meal – $.80.” Today’s full meal is how much? $8.00? Come on guys. Learn something new today. Everything that government touches it destroys, and that includes the economy and the money system. The people in Seattle will suffer under government controls just as the people in every city suffers under government controls. Socialism and communism never work – even the Russians and the Chinese have figured that one out. You want success in life? Vote for freedom from government controls. Let anarchy and voluntaryism enter your life.
Cynic in New York says
Gee it’s not like libertarians and anarcho-capitalists weren’t warning that this was going to happen.
Kristen Kitchens says
Ok i see a lot of arguments here. But here is a question for some of you what are you supposed to live on while you earn this degree in a worthy to get paid enough to live on field. Is teaching a worthy field. Should students live on the street till they complete a worthy program to earn the degree to get the wage that pays rent food and gas to the jobs?
Acebass1 says
All this hubbub just because waiters want to get a decent wage. I guess people are going have to start finding out what all those appliances in their kitchen do. People used to cook at home.
Kristen Kitchens says
Ok so just to point out 7.50 an hr is 1300 before taxes the lowest rent in the area for 1 br is 650 but most around 800-900 so how much comes out for taxes? Mind you that’s 500 from gross left to pay utilies, insueances, gas, food ,necessities.doubling may be a bit too much. And give it you should be able to negotiate wage although usually does not work. Would it hurt for business owners to pay enough to pay the rent and eat along with utility bills and shampoo for havens sake. How is a student supposed to survive if they barely make enough to pay bills and are exhausting themself trying to go to school and support them self.
Michael Griffith says
You mean would it hurt for the customers to pay the rent, etc…?
If students can’t survive in Seattle, then they should find someplace else to live. As long as everyone is playing along and supporting insane tuition prices and rents the fleecing will continue. Once upon a time not so long ago college students graduated with little or no debt and paid there way thru college working at Mcdonalds. Now Student Loans are plentiful and can’t be discharged in bankruptcy and college costs are obscene.
Stop playing along. That’s exactly what these restaurant owners are doing.
Kristen Kitchens says
Ok really so can i now point out that every customer pays for your way of life. With out customers then no one has a job because the company wouldn’t have money. Your current pay check is paid to you from the company. The company received that pay from the customers so invalid argument. And it’s the same market across the nation. So yeah. You all say get a worthy degree in a worthy field that’s almost impossible if you can’t afford to live while in college. Traditionally you could wait tables and pay your way through college now days your lucky to find that job and when you do your lucky if you make enough to just pay the rent and your gas to work. So tell me again how the customers shouldn’t pay the bills again?
Michael Griffith says
You can’t wait your tables thu college b/c Student Loans are plentiful, easy to get, and can’t be discharged in bankruptcy. This drove tuition thru the roof. Easy money in the Housing Mortgage business caused the Housing Bubble for the same reason.
As for your Circle of Life view on economics: In order for many customers to keep up with the price increase they need a raise too. So if you don’t work for Min Wage but aren’t making 150K a yr then you’re not likely to have the extra money to spend, so you eat out less, necessitating fewer workers, leading to layoffs.
If EVERYONE got a raise then EVERYTHING goes up in price– Gasoline, electricity, and yes, rent. Then you raise the Min Wage AGAIN and everyone makes more money and gas, rent, food go up in price AGAIN.
Infidel4Ever says
$ 15.00 x 0 hours = No Job. Great job, Seattle!
TKList says
There is no such thing as a living wage; there is only a wage that someone can afford to pay. You have to tailor your living around your wage, not have government tailor your wage around your living.
It is about supply and demand. If you have an easy time filling your employee needs, you offer lower wages, if you have a hard time filling your employee needs, you offer higher wages; because if you do not your competition will and you will be out of business.
It is not about what people deserve or what is fair or what is just; it is about what the market will bear. Blame the consumer for shopping for the lowest price and blame the voter for voting for government to fix their problems.
The middle class is the byproduct of a free market economy; it is not manufactured by a politician’s tax gimmicks, minimum wage laws, or government redistribution of wealth.
roval says
The problem is government red tape,taxes,and now minimum wage. If you lower taxes on businesses,and wage earners,and all other commodities,the value of the dollar will increase ten fold.people will spend more,and tax revenue will increase ten fold also,even if they are at a lower rate. The key is when taxes are lower,people spend more,but when taxes are high,people have less money in their pockets,and spend less.
happtakytrails says
I like to see this. With 50 states and thousands of cities, we should see what happens when liberal policies get approved.
Let the chips fall where they may, and lets see the results.
I know what will happen, but clarity is always good for the masses that are ignorant.
I wish the entire state of California would raise the min wage to $15. The Democrats have TOTAL control over that state. Why have they not passed that already?
Lets see what happens when their policies actually are put into practice.
Mark Zarraonandia says
What???? You mean the owners don’t have a secret vault of cash in the back room full of money. Greed bastards……..Instead of parting with some of their money they’re closing. Don’t they know businesses are in the business to employ people…not to make money.
Oh, sarcasm on.
Trust60 says
Democrats never seen to get it, the welfare party will implode on itself.
The new Democrat party of leeches benefit from others hard work through welfare food stamps section 8 and phony disability claims.
Hank Kaczmarek says
That’s why I never settle for the advertised wage. I prefer to negotiate my own deal. It’s the one I have to live with, so I prefer it to be on my terms. I went to work for a Chevy Dealer as Ass’t Parts manager. His policy was 1 week vacation for the first FIVE YEARS! @ age 44, this wasn’t going to work for me. As soon as he said that, I stood up and told him I was no longer interested. Then he said: “What do you want?!” I said 1 week’s vacation after 6 months, another at the end of the first year, and then 2 weeks per year after”. He asks: “What do I tell my other employees”. I said: “I don’t care if you tell them or not—you can pay me cash out of your pocket if you like. But on vacation, that’s what I want, or I’m out of here”. He conceded. Then we got to pay. He said “250.00/week plus 2% of the gross” (in the parts dep’t). I said “300.00 a week and 3%”. He conceded. After about a month I gave him 4 sheets of ideas to help streamline and increase productivity in parts as well as other departments. He read them and said “400.00 a week plus 4%”. I could live with that.
Greg Stewart says
Well now… I have a solution. Lets raise the minimum wage further to say…$100 per hour! What the heck! As long as we are suspending the rules of economics, why do these half way measures?
At $100 per hour, every laborer would gross 200K per year. They could then afford to go out themselves, multiple times per week. Since most union contracts are based upon a factor of minimum wage, we can expect those amounts to go up as well. We would be defying physics and priming the pump from the bottom up! The effects would be felt everywhere. It would take almost no time for beggars to come up in the street and ask “Brother can you spare a C note?”
MrLightRail says
All players are being treated the same, it’s a level playing field. Raising the costs to cover the additional spending for minimum wage increases would be across the board, since all their competitors would be paying the same wage. I don’t see the problem, other than some business owners whining, and just picking up their toys and leaving just to make a point that poverty level wages is the only way they can stay in business. Do you see them closing their doors because their supplier raised the cost of goods? No. They adjust their prices to reflect that if they can, and even then, it’s not the same, as others may not be paying the same price for the goods because they have a better supplier.
Michael Griffith says
My guess is that most customers in Seattle Restaurants will NOT be getting a raise as they do not work for min wage, so the question becomes will the customers spend 20% more to eat out and do so with the same frequency? The people who run some restaurants seem to think they won’t.
greghalv says
Leftism — DESTROYING market-places and the private sector since 1692.
Klokinator says
You know, I’m really torn. Historically, I’ve been on the side of the minimum wagers, but reading these comments, I’m beginning to see the light. I think Republicans are really onto something when it comes to fiscal issues. If we can just get the shitty ones out of power and put some of these smart ones into power, we might make some actual change!
smoogatz says
The story is right-wing bullshit propagated by the American Enterprise Institute, no less. How many restaurants have opened in Seattle in the same period? Is there any actual evidence of a net decline? Anybody interview the owners of the restaurants that have closed and asked them why? In the interviews I’ve seen, not one owner cites the minimum wage increase as a primary reason for closing. Restaurants open and close all the time in Seattle for all kinds of reasons–as many as a hundred in a given year. More here: http://www.ifyouonlynews.com/politics/sorry-righties-seattle-restaurant-closures-are-not-due-to-15-minimum-wage/
Michael Griffith says
So Seattle mag is Right-wing? Its their observation and story.
smoogatz says
Yeah–they mention the minimum wage increase–which takes place over several years–in the 12th paragraph, and none of the restaurant owners they talked to directly said it was an issue. I can’t speak for Seattle Mag; it’s owned by Tiger Oak Publications, which is owned by one R Craig Bednar and operates out of Minneapolis. Mr. Bednar apparently has a reputation for not paying his freelance writers, but other than that I’m not aware of his personal politics. But–and this is important–AEI is all over this “story,” even though their coverage and that of other right-wing sources like this one has been relatively fact-free.
Levon Perry says
So we can raise the hr pay for a hamburger flipper but we cant raise what we pay our military personnel or teachers and such. Im sorry but i dont agree with someone makimg that much, i have a friend that owns 2 rest and hes lucky after all bills paid and nothing needing to be repaired that is that he brings home 40 a yr, sad these people dont open up to make allot of money they open up cause of there passion for food, sad really sad
Loxfin Kjarr says
thats funny, my friend just opened a 2nd restaurant and pays 13+ an hour… seattle is bad at math or they are just greedy bastards who do not want to work to succeed.
Mike Quaid says
Never saw that coming. Ha ha Seattle.
phil says
that is a slap in the face to those restaurant workers. they been under payed and cheated to many years as it is. shamefull
Jim says
I don’t think the long run is devastation to the restaurant business in Seattle or the State, for that matter. Sooner or later, food service outlets will pop back into the market. I think it will degrade the “neighborhood eatery” feel that exists in the city. At 4-7% profit margins, the small single owner/family owned/chef owned business will have to raise prices to accommodate the higher labor costs or get lower quality food. The higher prices will reduce the the number of meals consumed by the locals, unless and until their wages increase to make up the difference. The food will not be so good anymore, turning more people away if quality does drop. The people getting minimum wages will still not be able to eat there at the higher prices. Once the doors close, something else may move in, like a chain franchise or a restauranteur with the deep pockets and enough other restaurants to maintain the profit margins, but it will be at the cost of a “neighborhood” eatery. Goodbye Joe’s American Bistro, hello Subway or some other vanilla flavored, get anywhere, food.
Marc says
LIberalism is well intended sometimes but ill concieved. What will happen is that upper scale restaurants will come in, it will chase out the middle class and it will become a place for the rich. Liberal policies cause a place to become only worthy of the rich. (San Francisco, Seattle or the poor. (Detroit). A free market system helps the middle class.
Salvador Del Toro says
Can someone give me any job? Im looking for work badly right now in California. Preferrably Full Time
MCVet says
More of the Messiah’s hope and change. How’s that workin out for you libtards who voted for him?
needahbeh says
Total BS… Waiters & waitresses rely on tips, restaurants owners pay very little in the way of hourly wages!
Michael Griffith says
Not anymore. Min wage is going up! And what kind of tips do you think they’ll get as the bill they get goes up? Yup, it will come out of their tip.
TL says
What a troll of an article.
So… Boat Street is closing because of a minimum wage increase? Then it’s really weird that Renee’s 2 other restaurants are still going strong and she’s planning to open a third after Boat Street closes. http://www.seattletimes.com/life/food-drink/renee-erickson-closes-boat-street-cafe-new-place-will-have-less-fish-more-meat/
How about Little Uncle? They didn’t like the location anymore, but plan to reopen elsewhere. (Proprietors Wiley Frank and Poncharee Kounpungchart said in a press release that they have “come to the conclusion that the Pioneer Square location ultimately does not fit into the goals of our professional life and personal life. Passing the Pioneer Square location on will give us the opportunity to refocus and find a better way to build Little Uncle.” ) http://www.komonews.com/seattlerefined/eat-drink/Open–Shut-This-week-in-restaurant-openings-and-closings-295075131.html
The Grub owner wants to move into consulting and is selling the business.
The false outrage is stupid.
websearcher says
Troll of an article is right. Even the Seattle Magazine which they quote points out…
“….about 60,000 restaurants open and about 50,000 restaurants close in an average year.”
Were the rightwingers outraged last year or the previous year when the same number of restaurants closed? I don’t think so.
Charlow says
A figment of your magic bacon. Stop fearmongering. Wages will rise by 50 cents per hour. If business doors are slamming shut at that wage rise then they were on the edge anyway. More money in more pockets will mean the local economy will benefit.
Aztexi1 says
Glad I live in Texas cause this is BS people who didn’t finish school being paid $15.00 an hour to serve burgers and other unskilled jobs is crazy. Hopefully now that they make more money they will go get an education uh but probably not why should they when everyone feels sorry for them and passes laws to help them out. What do the rest of us workers get besides higher prices longer wait periods due to places being under staffed? Mean while we worked our way up the ladder from $7.25 an hour to $15.00 by putting in years of hard work they pass a law and boom they are making a little less than me who went to school and fought my way to a higher earning. Doesn’t seem fair to me at all.
Michael Murray says
Shocker……
Quisno Rodonovich says
Seattle buisnesses shut down and move show the legislature of washington that thier legislation will affect them in such a way that they are replaced by those with compassion for the individual and buisness.
Hulon Pate Jr says
Trust. Seattle has had a higher menu cost in eating out since the 90s. As well as cost of living. Most places are either direct from farm, if not 100% organic ingredients. If a few close but a business should not flourish simply because they can get away with paying meager wages. That 36% figure also includes management as well as ownership paying them self a nice salary. Corporations are looking at every way possible to keep their profi
Wil Genovese says
Sadly you do not unstained anything about economics or business accounting. The 36% mentioned DOES NOT include the owners salary. Try learning something about how to own and operate a small business.
Hulon Pate Jr says
It’s more coming in than going out ?
1st MAW says
The do gooders are out in force, but if you want to help, buy things made in American. Go home and find something that’s not made in China. You are part of the problem to, because you don’t want to pay the price of something made in America.
neil hamilton says
Couldnt the Owners just increase the prices on the menu?
Wil Genovese says
and then who will pay those higher prices? The average family does not have extra disposable income. So they won’t be able to afford the higher prices and go out to eat less often or not at all. So then the restaurants have less people coming in making even less money while being forced to endure unreasonably high expenses. Good luck with that.
Jefferson Paine says
Neil – It may seem that way, but it’s not that simple. But assuming the min-wage now is $9.50 per hour, if your fast-food restaurant has 20 people working on average 24x7x265, adding $5/hr to their wage raises costs by $2400 per day or $876,000 per year (not including increased payroll taxes and related costs).
The best fast-food restaurants can make as much as $2.5M per year. The average is much lower than that. Assume the restaurant above is good and makes $2M per year – that means the increased wages raised total costs by 50% of revenue per year…
To compensate you’d have to raise prices by 50%. Do you really think that will work?
mustbejoking says
We should really stop trying to correct a self-correcting market
Sean says
If the people didn’t take the job at crap pay, the employer would have to pay more. The blame for the low paying jobs falls completely on the employee. You are getting paid what you are worth. The low information workers don’t realize what it takes to pay them. I have to spend twice my employees pay in various things including taxes (I have to match theirs and don’t get a refund), I have to pay all the insurances, including workers comp and specialty insurances, I have to advertise, make sure customer relations are maintained (a crappy employee can quickly screw this up) and I had to put up my own money up front to create and maintain the company, they just have to show up and work. Greed is a word made up by the unmotivated or poorly educated to validate their own position in life.
tensor says
Of course, the original Seattle Magazine story told of four restaurants which closed, and five that have opened, for a net gain of one restaurant. This blog post therefore seems to be claiming the impending rise in Seattle’s minimum wage has caused expansion in the city’s restaurant business. Reading all thousand-plus comments here, most of them saying the opposite has happened, has been a really amusing experience.
andymelichar says
This just points to the more endemic problem – our wages have not kept pace with cost-of-living. Since 1990, cost-of-living has increased 67%. Wages in the same period have only increased 21%. Our nation is due for a reset. It’s easy enough to tell people that if they want a livable wage, they should gain more skills and get a better job. That’s nothing but a cop out. Walk into any restaurant and ask the servers about their education. You’ll find people with Bachelor degrees, Masters degrees, even PHDs who had such a hard time finding a job, they had to resort to a minimum-wage job just to stay afloat. I’ve worked in restaurants in both the front and back-of-the-house and I know what it takes to make them profitable – it’s hard – and labor is indeed the biggest cost. But that doesn’t justify paying someone so little they can’t afford to live.
It comes down to this – do you forsake the employees at the benefit of the employer? Or do you force the employer to be more creative in how they structure their business so they create a business model that is both profitable and doesn’t rely on cheap labor? Restaurant owners know PRECISELY what they are getting into when they go into business, and if their profitability model relies solely on paying their employees next-to-nothing, they certainly SHOULD close down. It’s called a market correction – and our labor force is very much past due for a correction in their favor.
TheRealEvilGenius says
Hmmmm…some people who have a 4 year college degree and have been at their job for years make less than Seattle’s minimum wage. Lucky dogs!
Katsstud says
Simple math dictates that higher costs are either passed onto consumers, who in turn have their buying power reduced (assuming the market will absorb the increase), or a decision will be made to close the business. The restaurant industry is one of the most competitive and lacks much room to absorb such cost increases. The pathetic politicians we employ have little understanding of the business world and merely fall back on trite ideological phrases and baseless rants. You get what you pay for Seattle, so enjoy the ride…it will be a bumpy and disappointing one.
There are so many who lack the understating of value in the workplace based on years of ideological brainwashing demanding fairness and equality. Supply and demand dictates value whether you want it to or not. If there is a job position geared to the lowest common denominator, you can fill it with low-skilled low-experience and low-education workers and thus the lower wage. The higher the bar to add value such as with technical and professional positions, the pay will rise somewhat inversely proportional to the number who make the grade. Even in instances of wage fixing, employers will find a way to generate additional benefits to valuable workers in order to secure the best. Sorry the world and common sense doesn’t revolve on feelings, so stop promoting the destruction of communities to maintain the smug narcissism just a little while longer.
Terrence Jackson says
Most cities do not understand that the “most memorable” Cities in the United states are the ones with The Greatest restaurants! You know your government is completely “out-of-hand” when laws are passed to appease the criers, instead of improving the fiscal strength of the local economy. This law will cost so many people their jobs, in every small business venue, that the cries of ‘foul’ will be heard far and wide. I don’t care how much the liberal stupid news tries to cover this one with lies, it’s going to be too devastating to hide. The new minimum wage law is a masterful piece of what is known as ‘legal fiscal destruction’ of the local economy. Lawmakers love it because if it passes, it gets rid of ALL of the struggling small businesses in a community with no lawsuits about, RACE, ETHNICITY, PROPERTY OWNERSHIP, and even City Coding disputes (no more small businesses).
Edward Kimble says
The notion is that a higher ocean raises all ships, but the truth is different for many businesses. Disregarding inflation, there is a finite amount of profit, so that suddenly increasing business costs by raising minimum wage or other benefits equals? Anybody? Fewer workers, fewer benefits, fewer full time jobs, more outsourcing,
poorer product, smaller footprint, more automation, lower overhead,
or simply move or close the business. The Bailey Building and Loan is gone…… due to Progressivism? Welcome to the real Pottersville. Sounds funny but it is the difference, Some state or corporate knob keeps you “safe” as slave in his/her city of monochromatic equals, usually in a “shared” hovel with moldy tater tots and lots of analgesic, so they can achieve their state dream…, or… free enterprise turns loose a million dreams and a million cows, and you get a big mac with your french fries, milk with your fruit loops, and profits from your insurance policies, . But the Lenins and the Castros and the Obamas never see this, never see the difference between that one gray lady and the millions of little urban hipsters with their million companies, dreams, mission statements, retirement plans, and ways of doing things . But the explanation is always theirs with no alternatives allowed. Funny how that works!!
Hardie4WA says
I remember a letter to ‘Dear Abby’ years ago. A recent high school graduate was complaining that she worked full time at a restaurant earning minimum wage, which wasn’t enough to cover her rent, utilities, food, clothing etc.
She didn’t think it was fair that her parents weren’t helping her pay her bills.
Response from Abby: If you can’t support
yourself on minimum wages from one job, work two jobs! If you are only valued at minimum wage, learn a trade or go back to school. Your parents have paid for and supported you until age 18.
it’s your responsibility now and don’t forget your parents’ birthdays!
Yu Gno says
It is not at all surprising that some will give up before the actual results are in. The effects will be short term, as others will fill the gap left by the whiners who got out of business.
And yes, I own and operate a small contract cleaning business. When I began 14 years ago, I paid my staff $14 an hour – well above the industry standard then, and still above the average today. What I got were employees willing to go the extra mile, work an extra hour or two when a job required it, and stuck around so that my training costs were essentially nil.
Do I make as much as someone who pays their staff minimum wage? I can’t say. But I can say that I like the lack of stress in needing to find new employees since the ones I have don’t leave, and my costs of client acquisition are low since I do not need to replace my existing customers often, some of which have been with me since the inception of the business.
Of course, I could have given up immediately when minimum wage hikes were instituted in the middle of the last decade. But I didn’t, mainly because my staff were already making well over the minimum.
InalienableWrights says
Brought to you by moronic socialists that don’t understand economics and can destroy any economy anywhere……
wayne8734 says
Oh no,according to the libatards,this would not happen.Businesses would absorb the extra wages and the low wage earners would now have more money to spend in the economy.BS!!!!! Anyone with a lick of sense should know this was going to happen.Businesses will not eat the extra cost,many will have to close their doors because of this.Thanks,Obama and the libatards.
Crablady says
Now my servers will make $15/hr + tips which averages out between $150-$300 per day. So for a 5 hr shift, they are making min $45/hr. In comparison my trained chefs with $100k school loans make $15-25/hr. I pay upwards of 38-42% in taxes, work 16 hr days and am now lucky to take home 4-7%. I may as well go back to serving.
MegaGorgo says
So this headline “More Seattle restaurants close doors” is total BS because you do not have any numbers for it. Seriously, what a crappy blog. 2 minutes of my life I can never get back.
toolski says
It costs more to live in a city. As a comparison, in the UK the legal minimum wage is £6.70 ($9.94) but for many this is totally inadequate. There are campaigns for a Living Wage calculated annually on the basic cost of living. This is currently £9.15 ($13.57) for London residents and £7.85 ($11.64) elsewhere. In Seattle there will be 3 to 7 years to phase in the minimum wage increase depending on the size of the workforce so it is doubtful it will have that much affect on business closures. Restaurants come and go constantly for many different reasons, mainly through poor management and over saturation in the market place and it is possible that some of these restaurants are using the minimum wage increase as an excuse for their already failing business. Here in the UK there are currently campaigns for Premier League football clubs to pay their cleaners a living wage when they can afford to pay their players millions. The wage market is unfair and needs rebalancing.
kikakookoo says
http://murray.seattle.gov/minimumwage/#sthash.9oLzLsFz.vr876SHR.dpbs
dune says
did u ever think that people would not have to tip for bad service and it would not be added to the bill, as workers would be paid a living wage not a poverty one like some 3rd world country. With better wages there would be less burden on the government by less food stamps ect that the taxpayer pays for and they just may be able to get a better education but no they had better not as who then would make your pizzas, flip your burgers, give you that table service so some can treat them like some kinda personal slave who you can be rude and obnoxious too as you know they are relying on your tip to be able to survive if they are lucky. If a business can not afford to pay their workers a decent wage without going under they were never making a profit in the first place and they were relying on slave labour to keep their pockets lined.
AmazonRedHead says
I don’t know about economics or running a business. What I DO know is the last time I was in San Francisco, several years ago, at the bottom of my restaurant bill was a $5 Minimum Wage Surcharge. When the city raised minimum wage, the restaurants simply added the cost to the bill. I often wonder if those who work in restaurants can afford to dine at them.
Neil Gregory Leeds says
The wages are not the big problem,the rising rents are where most of the profits are going.Research would have to include each place that is closing and see how much the rent was when they started and how long they were in business before they decided to close.Then see how many people were on the payroll.Then do a small study in the community that they were doing business with to see how they felt as a customer,were the bathrooms spotless,were they all amazing to the point you would refer everybody to the establishment.Then ask the employees how they truly felt about the owners and the managers.Did the owners have a huge lifestyle,were they humble,what was the climate of the business.Did the business advertise every month and continue to build it?This is just the first few things that need to be addressed before we put down the wages as for the closings,in fact Costco is doing better because they pay more to their employees,and Wal Mart has to figure out how to do the same.Higher paid employees or company’s that allow their staff to be owner operators,profit sharing seem to do well.Small business is amazingly hard and big business is as well.That is what makes it great to wake up to.The challenges to do your best.I speak from hardship and over 30 years working and owning a business.Please excuse my handwriting skills I quit school at age 9 to work because of not wanting to live in poverty growing up in a divorced home…I really want everybody to succeed and to love what they do.I would never want anybody to come work for my brand and feel they are bossed around or have conflict with the upper management.It should be a blessing for anybody to come and help you grow a business…do it together.Everybody is so important from the landscaper to making sure the bathrooms are spotless.Nothing is a bad job or to good for the owner to do also..Nobody works for anybody..they work for themselves and god if they believe in that as well…Have a great day everyday..Neil
Caroline says
I’m from Australia and I hate the fact that the customer has to pay the wages of restaurant staff with a tip. In Australia we get good quality staff by paying good wages and we tip only if we get good service but in most cases the tip is around 10 per cent. In the US , the sickly sweet service is so fake and based on the fact that they just want a bigger than the already ridiculous tip expected. What if it’s a slow night in a restaurant over there or even a slow week……the staff earn hardly any money and struggle to pay rent etc.
Jim Rogers says
And at $15 an hour they STILL get the order wrong and STILL can’t make the correct change. All this accomplished was a loss of jobs and businesses. I don’t know but I think $10 an hour is better that $0 dollars an hour when your work place closes. And Obamacare REALLY helps the situation.
moorewr says
http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2015/03/are-seattle-restaurants-closing-in-record-numbers-spoiler-no
BuckyBadger says
My parents owned a family cafe and these numbers are presented are far off. My parents owned their establishment in a far smaller area with far less profit than 90% of the Seattle based places and they paid $15/hr to their cooks in the 1990s. Labor cost isn’t that high for these places, that is a lie. If your worker is only making $8/hr you you can sell one meal an hour to pay for their wage, are you only selling 3 meals a hour? If that is the case your place is no good and you should shut down. Most restaurants and small businesses fail which isn’t explained in this article because it doesn’t fit in their theme. They don’t fail because of labor cost but because they simply couldn’t drum up the business. If you can’t afford to pay a livable wage you can’t afford to be in business. The supply and demand will dictate what business makes it and what doesn’t, not a raise in a living wage.
JudyB says
Oh FFS, if your restaurant is only grossing $700,000 a year maybe your should work on a better plan to up your business and profit
instead of blaming the workers (who work mainly for tips and thus have a big incentive to do a good job).
KevinWA says
$11 per hour you morons. $15 doesn’t kick in ’til 2021. Article is total right-wing bs. Yes- Seattle is going to fold because more people are making more money, which they will spend at, I don’t know, places like restaurants?!? I think not! More money earned means more money to the local economy. But Ooohhh- After April 1st, full-time workers will make an extra $60 per week! Let’s all PANIC!! or read this article too: http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-no-the-minimum-wage-isnt-20150316-column.html
mad hatter says
At that rate 15 and 16 year old kids could make almost 30k a year. First off a child that age has no need for that much spending money. Next, I can see the government being completely okay this, at those earning levels the kids would no longer end up being “tax exempt” which increases the income base of the states. And I also believe that they may see an increase of high school drop outs when children opt that 30k a year is worth more then an education. And yet another chip is taken from the foundation which once made this country great!
Kayla Lynne Kroon says
I agree wholeheartedly! I am tired of hearing the “It needs to pay a living wage!” nonsense when these minimum wages jobs were NEVER designed to support a family.
Doug Nusbaum says
I have a good bulshit sniffer. I am also not stupid or illiterate. I know that tips are figured into these wage
calculations and that most of a waiters income comes from tips which are shared with other staff. I used to work as a waiter. A competent waiter makes way more than minimum wage. ($5.00 per table, two or three tables per hour minimum — do the math. Oh I forgot, conservatives can not do math)
So I went looking for confirmation and found: http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-no-the-minimum-wage-isnt-20150316-column.html. Which served to confirm not only the ignorance and stupidity (read orwells boot, it is number 1 on almost all search engines) of most conservatives, but the fact that their bloviating leaders are well aware of this stupidity and make their bloviating living by lying. I went to one link: http://www.seattletimes.com/business/economy/workers-ready-employers-brace-for-seattles-minimum-wage-law/
and the word close did not appear in the article. Here is a quote from one small business:
“It will have an impact on the bottom line,” she said. “But we expect
the ultimate impact to be positive. The quality of life of employees
will go up. They’ll feel more successful at work and productivity will
go up.”
That hardly sounds like a disaster to me. But as I said, conservative bloviators write for a stupid and ignorant audience and lie. They lie a lot
DJ M says
That BS sniffer must be going off all of the time
2sides2everystry says
I’m curious where the concern is for the small business owner…aren’t they people too? Why is it ok for them net $28,000 annually when they put up the starting capitol, work well over 40 hours a week, and can probably count the minutes on one hand when they aren’t thinking about their business during “off” hours. Meanwhile, an employee with zero skin in the business and who doesn’t give it another thought after they clock out should make $15 x 40 hrs x 52 weeks = $31,200 yr aka $3200 yr more than the business owner who probably mortgaged his/her home to keep the business running?
dennis mascolo says
the assholes do not want to know about work value they want big money for doing a chimpanzees job…..butso what if the restaurant closes let all his skilled help go find other work..just put in their search 30thousand plus dish washer in search of work….they will starve to death..but this is all that asshole obamas fault ..if it were up to him the floor sweeper would have a 50%share of the business..he is a communist son of a bitch
KB says
Dear morons that amplified this poorly researched piece of propaganda. All three owners of the closing/closed restaurants were asked if minimum wage were a factor and all three were shocked at the suggestion and vehemently denied it. Oh, and dig a little deeper my synapse-challenged friends and you’ll find that it doesn’t come into full effect until 2022.
Shane Brooks says
I think the whole concept of money is broken anyway. I know it’s still bartering and such, but still broken imo. We live by numbers and not by each other. Greed kills that gift. Welcome to the human race i suppose. Good luck.
Raymond59 says
Gold, silver, copper, and barter work well for.
Shane Brooks says
Just metals that’s it. Nothing more, but people historically have been given the perception that it has value. We are the value not some inorganic metal. Just my crazy view i suppose, but I stand by it. 😉
Raymond59 says
Well, gold, silver, and (to a lesser degree) copper have more value than some people that I know. It a matter of historical fact, not perception. Men have killed other people and buried empires for that yellow metal.
Shane Brooks says
You stated it was not about perception, but you comment that there are some people worth less than these metals(gold.silver, copper.etc yes even diamonds((All gems/crystals in fact). That is perception. In fact it’s all about perception. If i perceive something to me that has value, but you do not then we have different views of we perceive to have value. Yes, historically man has killed over these metals cause they perceived it to have more value than themselves. Humans put the perception that it has a so called value and thus here we are still today and will be after we are long gone. I think that organic life has way more value than these over glorified metals. Last note: Just would be nice to try something totally different and see what happens. But most people do not like change once they get comfortable. No biggie just the way i always have thought some about, but living in this concept that has been paved out for us all to follow. Take Care
Raymond59 says
The value of gold, silver, diamonds (all gems in fact), etc. come from the rarity of the items involved. I don’t disagree with with you that life has more value, but I’m coming from the commodity point of view. Even people have killed over Oil, land, food, etc. Greed (unfortunately) is an element of Human Nature and Human History. Also, no one has to follow the road for us that “has been paved out for us all to follow.” people can make their own choices.
Charlie123 says
You should realize that this article is a total fraud. The Seattle Times has an article in the 3/17 issue taking the lies apart. The “quotes” claimed to be from Seattle Magazine are frauds. None of the seven restaurant owners interviewed said anything about the new minimum wage.
SusanF-VT says
As Seattle prepares for the April launch of the highest minimum wage
law in America, conservatives are warning that businesses are already
shuttering under the pressure of higher labor costs and pointing to a
recent report of a rash of restaurant closures as evidence. The problem
is, the actual owners of those restaurants say that they’re not closing
because of wages, and the city seems to be enjoying robust growth in
that industry.
The New York Post editorial board, American Enterprise Institute scholar Mark Perry, Forbes contributor Tim Worstall, and Rush Limbaugh all cited a Seattle Magazine article
from March 4 that claimed a “rash of shutterings” was afoot in the
Seattle restaurant world. The magazine suggested that the minimum wage
law might be a contributing factor in the closures of the Boat Street
Cafe, Little Uncle, Grub, and Shanik.
“That’s weird,” Boat Street Cafe owner Renee Erickson told the Seattle Times
when fact-checkers emailed to confirm the Seattle Magazine story. “No,
that’s not why I’m closing Boat Street.” Erickson’s three other
restaurants remain open, and two brand new ones are in the works in
Seattle. “Opening more businesses would not be smart if I felt it was
going to hinder my success,” said Erickson, who described herself as
“totally on board with the $15 min.”
Poncharee Koungpunchart and Wiley Frank of Little Uncle “were never
interviewed for these articles,” they told the paper. They are closing
one of their two locations, “but pre-emptively closing a restaurant
seven years before the full effect of the law takes place seems
preposterous to us.” Frank reportedly asked one conservative writer who
had picked up the wage-menace red herring to “not make assumptions about
our business to promote your political values.”
The owner of Shanik told the Times that closing has “nothing to do
with wages,” and Grub’s owner explained that they’re being bought out
and rebranded by new ownership because the breakfast and sandwich bistro
has been “a huge success.”
Terry O says
Maybe not.
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2015/03/18/3635571/seattle-restaurant-ragnarok-not-actually-happening/
Terry O says
Another article disputes this story. http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-no-the-minimum-wage-isnt-20150316-column.html
Dan Miler says
Except that when they talked to the restaurant owners, they get a completely different story. Like one of them is closing because the restaurant is being sold and they are opening 2 more. Whoever wrote this article…. it pays to RESEARCH before taking a story and running with it. That way you don’t make yourself look like a tool for passing along false information.
JNWesner says
Let’s revisit this story on April 1, 2016. Reporting what’s going to happen isn’t journalism; it’s fiction. Nearby SeaTac went to $15 a while back, and I hear that it’s surviving. I notice there’s no mention of families that will be able to eat. Check in next year and cover the story in full.
Ed Gruberman says
“What will change is that fewer people will be able to afford to dine out” Really? All these people will have $15 per hour. There will be more people finally able to eat out…
MamaLynn says
Grub closed because the food was terrible and rent on QA is insane. When Ototo was there before they did a fantastic business, but the landlords raised the rent so high it was unsustainable. This has nothing to do with the new minimum wage. A new restaurant is already building out the space and opening soon. Besides, as a true small business, not a franchise, they are only required to pay $10/hour as of 4/1/15. That isn’t much of a difference from the State minimum wage.
GP says
Get your facts straight.
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/truth-needle-is-15-wage-dooming-seattle-restaurants-owners-say-no/
GP says
And here’s another link – http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-no-the-minimum-wage-isnt-20150316-column.html
MeanieHead says
But if you read the Huffington Post, Seattle businesses are not closing and (according to them) businesses are doing above average, making profits hand-over-fist. We’ll see when it’s in full swing.
Liembo says
“Truth Needle: Is $15 wage dooming Seattle restaurants? Owners say no”:
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/truth-needle-is-15-wage-dooming-seattle-restaurants-owners-say-no/
Sirius_TheStarDog says
“That’s weird,” Boat Street Cafe owner Renee Erickson told the Seattle Times when fact-checkers emailed to confirm the Seattle Magazine story. “No, that’s not why I’m closing Boat Street.” Erickson’s three other restaurants remain open, and two brand new ones are in the works in Seattle. “Opening more businesses would not be smart if I felt it was going to hinder my success,” said Erickson, who described herself as “totally on board with the $15 min.”
Sirius_TheStarDog says
“We realized that bigger is not better. We have come to the conclusion that the Pioneer Square location ultimately does not fit into the goals of our professional life and personal life. Passing the Pioneer Square location on will give us the opportunity to refocus and find a better way to build Little Uncle,” they continued.
Sirius_TheStarDog says
Owner Sharon Fillingim sent us the following statement:
It is with both joy and sadness to announce the sale and closure of Grub.
I have had the immense pleasure of serving my community as well as receiving such tremendous support from my community which in turn; has made Grub a huge success.
As some entrepreneurs believe, it is best to leave at the top of their game and to decide when that time is. Although it was a difficult decision to make, I leave Grub with such great memories of the many customers who have come to dine, and for the many customers who have followed me throughout the years.
I look forward to my future opportunities in this wonderful industry, perhaps consulting others in their pursuits of their vision and dreams.
Thank you all – Sharon Fillingim
Sharon also announced that a new restaurant, the new Bounty Kitchen, will be moving into the space. Owned by Queen Anne resident, Meg Trainer, the new restaurant, Bounty Kitchen, will open in mid-April:
centerroad says
Amended:
Unfortunately we are unable to transfer our employee costs onto the tax payers like Walmart, the gov’t of Seattle is too smart. We enjoy making profits while our employees live in poverty so we will likely move to a third world red state.
Let them eat cake-
Sharon the visionary
Sirius_TheStarDog says
Vote Derpublican!
centerroad says
The sad old anecdotes in the absence of facts…
25% of restaurants go bankrupt in the first 3 years. What % of the total are the named places? Further, they haven’t even gone under yet. I can’t wait for the follow up article after a year. Or we can look at Australia who did this years ago and are thriving, as have the most successful industrial countries.
This is what thinking people call a crock of right wing crap.
Guy says
Arm chair economics is fun and all, but supply chain management dictates that workers wages in most industries accounts for 10% of the total expenses a company spends, You can raise wages to all employees by 20% and raise your prices by only 2% and be at the same level you were prior to the raises.
factswonthurtyou2 says
Nick Hanauer has a different perspective in the Guardian…
While Seattle’s economy is on a tear, clusters of homeless people amid the downtown towers underscore its deep wealth gap. Hanauer aims to use his clout to redress such imbalances. Efforts along these lines have gained particular traction in Seattle, which has passed a minimum wage of $15, more than twice the amount mandated by the federal government, and is taking a lead on the problems of inequality and affordability.One of Hanauer’s targets is the minimum wage. Although it is now higher in Seattle, he wants the state of Washington to follow suit, and has mooted the idea of an unprecedented $16 an hour.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/mar/21/seattle-economy-worsening-inequality
Joshua Petersen says
Funny thing… Seattle restaurants are actually doing better than ever. Rush Limbaugh faked some numbers on his show (expecting they’d be in the right ballpark) and he was waaaaay off. However, so many people have been latching onto his tall-tale story instead of the real story. I’ve been finding new restaurants popping up all over the place, and the old ones that “closed doors” are generally doing so because they’re moving into a bigger location.
Surprise surprise, when customers have more money to spend, they tend to spend more money.
Adam Miller says
The 15 an hour doesn’t start till 2021. No need to shit thine pants now.
Jack Winslow says
To cut cost the restaurant customers after their meal could bus their own table an chip in with kitchen clean up…wash a few dishes and clean he toilet. Ya gotta love liberal advances.
Rory sparrow says
I am an owner of a restaurant in Brooklyn NY and about as progressive as they come. Has there been some discussion where places like Walmart and McDonald’s, corporations with billions in profits are required to pay their workers a higher wage where as small businesses would have a lower increase?
Casual Observer says
Couldn’t they just take the employees “off the books” and pay them cash? Government would love that, no?
jeremie lederman says
I’m sure that nobody would be worried about being targeted, attacked, and threatened (boycotts, protests, etc) by actually mentioning the $15.00 question.
Given the sheer volume of willing denial being foisted to defend the wage increase, I can’t blame the business owners.
I may have missed it, but has any business cited $15.00 as a problem? Have they had their business, profits, model, or operation given a rectal exam for doing so?
zookeeper615 says
seeing how the $15 an hour doesn’t hit until 2021 saying it is approaching is pretty much just BS, incremental increases should work easing into it but typical “the sky is falling” BS journalism is just sad.
censoredASAP says
Geez! Who saw this coming? Oh yeah. Anyone with even the basest understanding of economics, can do simple math or uses their brain to make decisions, not their heart. In short, anyone but a “progressive”
Beverly Rommel says
Here we go again!! Everybody that can should leave the State of Washington! Now the crazy Seattle mayor is wacko too!!
Anthony Keuler says
I live in Seattle and this article is hogwash.The new minimum wage is about where it should be with inflation . Seattle is a very expensive city and 15 an hour is barely appropriate.Good jobs are scarce and Walmart is greedy I’m sure 15 an hour want hurt their bottonline one bit….doesn’t hurt Costco’s.As for small business,give me a break I have friends who own small businesses and they are driving brand new lexus and Mercedes and have a mortgage in a top notch suburb.
Cynthia Hammer says
Don’t they know that if they raise the income rate, companies will just raise their cost for goods, so in the long run, no one wins. This is what happen in North Dakota when people when to work on the Oil Fields. People were making more money so the businesses decided to raise their cost of goods. $5.00 a gal of Milk (my first thought was, “don’t they have milking cows in North Dakota”.) Rent is crazy. $1,500.00 a month for a singlewide mobile home to rent. We pay $394.00 mortgage for an acre of land and a home on it in Colorado. So when they raise pay, companies will raise the cost for goods.
humboldthung says
What about the fact that many more people will have money to go out to eat? The law hasn’t even gone into affect yet…give it time
RT2WSHP says
MINIMUM WAGE DOES/WILL NOT OFFSET THE PRICE OF GOODS & SERVICES, if wages rise, the cost of either or both Goods/Services Must rise also to offset overhead.
Senior Citizens Remember the “Good ‘ole Days: when a NICKEL would buy a gallon of milk or a gallon of gas or a Saturday matinee’ ticket; BUT THEN they ALSO REMEMBER their Paycheck was $10.00 A WEEK (TEN DOLLARS A WEEK LABOR).
MINIMUM WAGE DOES/WILL NOT OFFSET THE PRICE OF GOODS & SERVICES, if wages rise, the cost of either or both Goods/Services Must rise also to offset overhead.
FAIR & EQUAL are relative terms.
Drew Ferd says
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2015/03/22/minimum-wage-increase-killing-seattle-restaurants-anatomy-of-a-lie-from-inside-the-bubble/
DeanIverson says
sounds like a CRICK OF CRAP, 36%? clearly some greedy ratt wrote this for a greedy shareholder who is going to get paid less for shares now…
its only the greed mongers apposed to this just like they are apposed to unions, sweatshop slave drivers is all they are, BAN THEM NOW!!!
John says
iPads and automation are coming to the restaurants in Seattle……just like AppleBees, McD’s…….think bank ATM restaurants……
Lilly Coulter says
Just wait a year and then lets see how many are actually closing… I can wait..
Mark says
I didn’t see any numbers of closings in this article ? Thanks for the bullshit!
[email protected] says
It won’t hurt the dirty (all of them) politicians who buy votes with this garbage. When their prices go up they just put the word out they need more graft money. Communism is a beautiful thing!
[email protected] says
I have already changed my eating out habits. Just won’t and can’t afford the prices.
BobFromDistrict9 says
Seattle Magazine listed 4 restaurants as closing because of the higher minimum wage. The Seattle Times talked to all four owners. Three said it was not the minimum wage, it was location. Oh, wait, Seattle Magazine did say it was location, half way though an article on the higher minimum wage.
Can you spell “Fraud”?
The fourth restaurant? The owner said it was not closing, it is changing ownership and name, but will still be in business.
So far you headline is a fraud.
Then add in, it’s 7 years until the entire raise goes into effect, and for a business where employees are tipped it’s a dollar lower. So, those restaurants went from $9.47 to $10/hr. A raise of 53cents an hour is putting them out of business? Looks like Seattle would be better off with fewer restaurants anyway.
Either that or a magazine that does not find deceiving it’s readers acceptable journalism.
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/truth-needle-is-15-wage-dooming-seattle-restaurants-owners-say-no/
Someone with a Working Brain says
The minimum wage rose ONE WHOLE FREAKING DOLLAR this year. And it won’t hit $15 for FOUR MORE YEARS. So any person that believes Seattle restaurants are closing because they raised their wages BY ONE WHOLE DOLLAR, please do the country a favor and kill yourselves RIGHT NOW. You are too stupid to be of any use to the rest of us who can do simple math.
Frank says
I don’t agree with the raising of the minimum wage but I also don’t understand why restaurants are in such a panic. Servers, etc. in restaurants, farm workers, are exempt from minimum wage requirements. According to the Fair Labor Standards Act…. Any worker who earns regular tips (specified as earning at least $30 in tips a month by the FLSA) is eligible for a special minimum wage rate. Employers are permitted to pay tipped employees an hourly cash wage of as little as $2.13/hr- however, if this wage and the tips earned during that hour do not add up to at least the applicable minimum wage, the employer must make up the difference in cash. Thus, tipped employees are guaranteed to earn at least minimum wage, and can earn more then minimum wage in tips.
BillyHewitt says
Walmarts will have to close also! Bye Bye Seattle
BillyHewitt says
Must be a democratic mayor! Democrats ship jobs overseas…Look at criminal Obama pushing TPP…Bye Bye American jobs!
StormeeATL says
Typical right wing garbage lie site. Grub didn’t close because of the minimum wage increase and the rest of this is the usual cherry picking quotes into a word salad to fire up your short attention spans. Keep drinking the kool aid, sheeple.
uglybagofwater says
LiberaLOLs
Wiscoisrightoh says
Bucky, as a Wisconsin resident, I would assume that your hotel is in the madison, or Milwaukee aria. Please link me so I can see what conditions your in, and speak with employees. This is a load. I like how you change the subject.
Pierre Gagnon says
Why are right wing lobbys insisting on workers’ performance and not entrepreneurial performance? A higher minimum wage reduces the number of poor performing entrepreneurs, whether in the restaurant business or any other business. Some employees will lose their job for sure,, but they will found new ones with more efficient companies. It’s capitalism with at its best ! Come on right wing lobbys be coherent: Isn’t efficiency the” virtue” that you promote? Well you should be happy about this then!
Todd Danza says
Seattle’s $15 minimum wage law goes into effect on April 1, 2015.
It went into effect on April Fool’s Day? That’s appropriate.
stockmarketpig says
the minimum wage should be zero! the govt has no business telling a business owner what he must pay someone. the owner decides. period. if he doesnt pay well, no one will work for him and the market will work things out. the problem is these filthy whining liberals who wasted their youth on drugs, cigarettes, alcohol, screwing around in school and not getting a basic education, having kids they cant afford. then they wake up one day in their 30’s with no skills and no prospects and then demand that someone just GIVE them more money because they want it. it doesnt work that way libtard. you work at McDonald’s to gain some basic work skill (showing up on time, following directions, etc), then after a while you get more responsibilities and skills maybe training new hires or small supervisory roles. now you have some experience to step up to supervisor or or higher paying level of work. And you keep that up till more money is waranted or you can leave with your experience and find a better paying job. but filthy libs just sit with their lazy hands out demanding more money for no effort or skill. hey liberals do America a favor and please hold your breath until your raise comes. America will instantly be great again.
sallyann says
Prices are what the market can bear. not wages. And min wage did not go up to $15. It went up to $11.
ragnarockdan says
shiftwa.org is apparently a right leaning site. How about revisit this topic based on actual experience AFTER the minimum wage increase (for example – see the following: http://www.nbcnews.com/business/economy/seattle-eaterys-early-move-15-minimum-wage-rousing-success-n401666
ragnarockdan says
Additional article: http://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/06/04/sky-remains-aloft-dire-minimum-wage-predictions-proved-wrong
Roger Jones says
Right-wing sites want everyone to believe that, come April 1, the minimum wage in Seattle will jump from the current level to $15 an hour. That’s not what’s happening at all. The new minimum wage will be phased in over several years. How quickly a business reaches the $15 an hour level depends on the size of the business, and whether or not the business offers employees health care benefits, as explained on Seattle mayor Ed Murray’s web page.
The current minimum wage in Washington state is $9.32 an hour. That wage goes to $11 an hour on April 1 for businesses with more than 500 employees. For businesses such as restaurants, with fewer than 500 employees, who receive “minimum compensation,” that wage can be made up of a combination of wages, tips, and employer contributions to an employee health care plan, as long as the total of all the compensation equals at least $11 an hour. The full $15 an hour minimum wage does not take effect for restaurants until 2019.
The right-wing sites mentioned above all latched onto a story in Seattle Magazine, that says that the impending wage increase is one of the reasons for the restaurant closures. However, Sara Jones, author of the story, acknowledges that not a single restaurateur she spoke to gave the wage increase as a reason for his or her restaurant being closed
juandos says
So roger jones thinks labor costs should not be subject to the laws of basic economics, eh?
From Mark Perry at AEI: Seattle food jobs ‘soaring’? At only 0.67% growth last year and by several comparisons, ‘anemic’ seems more accurate
Consider the article as it comes from an economist…
Educated_Black_Man says
Liberals struggle with unintended consequences.
Educated_Black_Man says
As the evidence mounts, people continue to ignore it. 100-42-30-30=-2.
CapitalistRaccoon says
Article headline:
“More Seattle restaurants close doors as $15 minimum wage approaches”
how many restaurants have closed doors since the $15 minimum wage is been affect how many restaurants have opened since
Joseph Archer says
And now 8 months later none of them are missed. QQ.
J. says
No argument necessary. Watch what happens. You’ll know. However, artificial compensation rates (not based on qualifications and performance) usually raise prices to consumers who are about to be hit with higher healthcare costs. I don’t see how this minimum wage idea helps with anything, except to increase unemployment.
Wm Weber says
When did earning a wage increase stop? Now just a hand out, no incentive.
John Simard says
let me tell you all just how bullshit this article is….no writer, no, publisher, , no way to know who wrote it, complete made up bullshit…..
George says
More fat lazy slobs should be eating at home, eating out has become way to affordable at the expense of creating slave labor dependent on food stamps. Compared to 35 years ago when no one was eating out during the week to nearly 95% once a weekday its no wonder all disposable income is spent on dining instead of quality made products and services which require better paid skilled workers.
Daniel Carson says
Another libturd agenda gone bad for the city of waste, l am a cook out in central WA and make 12.50 hr. And have a family and do just great…
Brokerone says
Socialism ultimately fails. History abounds with examples. Why do people fail to learn from history?
eagle keeper says
The argument that libs like to make is that the minimum wage hasn’t gone up for years. That just isn’t true. In high school I worked as a busboy at a restaurant for .75 cents an hour. That was in 1965. I had no skill and possessed no knowledge of the job. Was trained on what to do. Fair pay for the work at that time. Point is I didn’t want to make a carer of being a busboy as a means of making a living. These type of jobs are called “entry level” not career jobs. So 15 an hour for hiring an unskilled person to do a job is ridiculous.
tensor says
The argument that libs like to make is that the minimum wage hasn’t gone up for years. That just isn’t true.
You’re correct. Per Initiative 688, Washibgton state’s minimum wage rises every year. That’s why you haven’t actually quoted any liberals making that claim.
Iatemine says
Nothing more idiotic than a west coast Liberal. Let’s watch them increase their unemployment numbers dramatically. Then listen to them complain about it.
tensor says
U.S. unemployment rate: 5.0%
Seattle’s unemployment rate: 4.4%
Iatemine says
The fact you think these articles are true is cute….
tensor says
So, what statistics will you use to validate your claim of Seattle’s unemployment numbers increasing “dramatically”?
Of course, you won’t use any numbers at all. You’ll just run away and hide as Seattle’s prosperity continues to increase.
Iatemine says
Who’s hiding? Let us wait and watch as businesses start compensating. The law has just started, there are no numbers yet twit, but I can add and understand a round economy. Let us now watch as entry-level jobs start disappearing, employers start to eliminate unskilled support jobs, and the fast food industry replace service employees with kiosks (already being implemented). Do you really think 2+2=10? Most foodservice businesses run on a pitiful 5% profit margin, of which employment costs are their highest % cost (I was a Restaurant owner for over 25 years) and let us watch as prices start climbing to a level that dimwitted short-sighted people like YOU even start complaining! So what are YOUR qualifications that you have proof that this dramatic raise in salaries will have no negative effects? Lets watch as service businesses immigrate to another state.
tensor says
“The law has just started, there are no numbers yet…”
This post is over a year old; the wage rose *last* year. The numbers are as I have cited them.
You haven’t answered my question. What’s you’re definition of a dramatic increase in Seattle’s unemployment rate? Which metrics will you use?
More importantly, how much time has to pass with those numbers not meeting those values before you finally admit you’re wrong?
Iatemine says
And just as expected, Kiosks are replacing workers. Are you really this dense…your agenda trumps truth? Stupid Leftist. Walmart is closing 500 stores. People are LOSING JOBS Fool!
tensor says
You haven’t answered my question. What is your definition of a dramatic increase in unemployment, how will you measure it, and what are the conditions which would render your prediction false?
Iatemine says
Your “question” is stupid. ANY loss of jobs is dramatic you pompus fool! The entry level jobs for the uneducated, immigrant and school aged kids are possibly going to be decimated because of idiots like you. Your arrogance is astounding, only a close second to your stupidity.
tensor says
Your “question” is stupid. ANY loss of jobs is dramatic you pompus fool!
Every working day, some people switch jobs, some people quit jobs, some people lose jobs, and some people start new jobs. The mimimum wage does not rise every day. Therefore, according to your logic, the minimum wage has no effect whatsoever on employment decisions.
And the loss of ONE job means that unemployment numbers have increased “dramatically”? In a city of over half a million people? The question here is no longer what numbers will you use; it’s now whether or not you know the meanings of the words you use.
Check back in with us after you learn to use your words.
Iatemine says
Forget it. Typical Liberal. Ignore reality to further your own ridiculous agenda and in the process be as insulting as possible to bolster your mental insecurity. . Arguing with a 5 year old is more productive and real. You are arguing with common knowledge. Good luck with that.
tensor says
You get bonus points for being punked by a known charlatan:
“The problem, as several commentators pointed out, was that the Seattle metropolitan statistical area is not the same as the city of Seattle. It’s huge — three counties encompassing 39 cities, with a population of 3.6 million compared to Seattle’s 660,000 residents — and only Seattle had enacted a $15 minimum wage.”
But you can’t count that high anyway, now can you?
Iatemine says
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/02/19/seattles-15-minimum-wage-jobs-down-unemployment-up-this-isnt-working-is-it/#5d01470d3712
Iatemine says
Article from The Daily Caller-
Seattle, which recently passed a $15 minimum wage, has seen the loss of 700 restaurant jobs despite the rest of the state seeing huge increases, according to a Wednesday report.
In its report, the American Enterprise Institute looked at restaurant job growth in both Seattle
and the rest of Washington. The state itself has gained 5,800 industry
jobs since January. Seattle, however, lost 700 jobs in the same time.
The state minimum wage
is $9.47. Back in June Seattle passed its own minimum wage of $15 an
hour. The city ordinance is designed to phase in over the course of
several years. It will reach $15 an hour by 2017 for most employers.
“One likely cause of the stagnation and decline of Seattle area
restaurant jobs this year is the increase in the city’s minimum wage,”
the report speculated. “It looks like the Seattle minimum wage hike
is getting off to a pretty bad start. Especially considering that
restaurant employment in the rest of the state is booming, and nearly
6,000 more restaurant workers are employed today than in January.”
Iatemine says
There is a great article on Forbe’s , Feb. 16. 2016 that explains the impact much better than I can. Look it up. It isn’t Seattle’s economy that is so much affected as the loss of employment.
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Steve Henry says
The two peak years for the 1% were 1928 and 2007. Ring any bells? They were riding high on their bubble. On top of that people making 10 million a year don’t spend 10 million a year they save it or invest it. They don’t generate enough economic activity. You need a strong middle class to have a stable economy. Wages use to match productivity until the late 70s. The whole time the economy has been growing but after that point wages flatlined. Possibly because of a major assault on unions during the Nixon era. When you throw in globalization and technology it really puts a strain on the little guy. Another thing that happened in the late 70s was higher education flatlined right alongside wages. Women began going into the workforce to cope with the flatlined wages. People also started going into debt to keep the living standard up. A lot of people used the rising values of there homes to justify the debt they were getting into (building the bubble). This created a downward cycle wages stagnate, workers buy less, companies downsize, tax revenues decrease, government cuts programs, workers less educated, unemployment rises, deficits grow and so on. Meanwhile investors and CEOs are making more than ever before. Capitalizing on the wage gap and debt. All that excess money at the top has now made it possible for them to control politics (undermining democracy). Pretty disgusting. When inequality is at it highest the tax rates at the top are at the lowest. 1947 to 1977 is where we saw the greatest era of prosperity. Top income tax was mostly 80 % and higher (today it’s about 15%). There was low income inequality and we invested a lot in higher education. Gi bill and public universities. We had the best trained work force in the world and 30% belonged to unions. This created an upward cycle of prosperity for everyone, a polar opposite of what I mentioned before.
Diana says
Let’s talk about me a small business owner that won’t be able to afford the 15 minimum wage . I work 7 days a week… I can’t afford it ..
I’m not some mega Rich ceo … With bonus I’m talking about mom and pop shops …
When did we become so lazy ?
When did we become so entitled ?
Everyone wants something for nothing …
No sacrifice . I see the union workers sitting daily doing nothing they sit in my coffee shop for hours at a time ..
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Army Vet 4444 says
The whole case for the “$15.00 minimum wage” is fraught with problems. The leaders that put this into motion, are morons! If they had done ANY research into what happens to a community when this outrageous minimum is put into place, they would have known this would happen. So did they know? And STILL put it in place? Using the minimum wage as a political tool for votes? At this point, it doesn’t really seem to matter. The city citizens should impeach the city counsel, and the Mayor for a “Job poorly done”, and start over.
tensor says
If they had done ANY research into what happens to a community when this outrageous minimum is put into place, they would have known this would happen.
So, do some research then, show your work, and tell us your results. What economic problems have resulted from increased minimum wages? (Suggested examples: I-688, which has raised Washington State’s minimum wage annually since 1999, and Seatac’s raising of that city’s mimimum wage to $15/hour in 2014.)
BENJAMIN FRANKLIN says
Don’t worry. You shall see a substantial number of boarded up buildings like Detroit in Seattle. Such a shame that a beautiful city is getting eaten up by greedy people .
tensor says
In 1998, the opponents of I-688 warned that our passing it would cause prices to rise “out of control.”
Fifteen-plus years of low inflation later, they haven’t returned to explain why their very clear prediction has been such a total failure.
I’m guessing you won’t be back here in ten years, either.
BENJAMIN FRANKLIN says
Well, I will buy a one way ticket to settle in Seattle, I heard that homeless don’t sleep hungry and they have safe public areas where they can legally get high on heroin and get drunk, thanks to you brainwashed taxpayer. Is it true that homeless from CA, AZ and other States get a one way ticket to the city of opportunity? It must be nice to suck on that fat government cow tits. Be warned, milk will dry out eventually.
tensor says
Those aren’t any of the reasons why I chose to move to Seattle, and to continue living here, but to each his own, I guess.
How many buildings have to be “boarded up” before the number counts as “substantial”? I want a range, either in absolute numbers, or in a percentage of overall buildings. I want you to tell us exactly the prediction you’re making — and from which you will slink away silently a decade hence, refusing to take responsibility for the failure of it.
BENJAMIN FRANKLIN says
Let’s just say this… Once the rich folks start to flock away, crimes rises you will have your answer. Look at the unfortunate third world cities in US, i.e. Detriot, Newark, NJ, Chicago, etc…
The failures should be blamed to the city’s and State’s politicians for making business go away due to high taxes and other fees imposed on business where the first to suffer are the workers getting laid off so the business can stay alive and try making ends meet and stay in competion. Do you think a good business like to let his employees go? No! A business cannot exist without workers. If your business gets siphoned by the government and in order to meet that demand something has to give and that is reduction in workers and subsequently closing its doors.
tensor says
So, when will all of that start to happen? Because Washington state has had a high minimum wage ever since we enacted I-688, and Seattle’s economy is booming.
BENJAMIN FRANKLIN says
I cannot predict when it will happen. Seattle may be the exemption from economy doom. Let’s just wait and see. Ypu never
tensor says
I cannot predict when it will happen.
You sound a lot less certain than did this guy:
You shall see a substantial number of boarded up buildings like Detroit in Seattle in 10 years.
I’ll leave you two to fight that out amongst yourselves. At least one of you simply must be wrong, so if you ever figure out which one of you it is, please do let the rest of us know.
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WordCrafter says
After researching the article in Seattle magazine, it’s clear that the restaurants mentioned were on life support before the $15 minimum wage became an issue. Some were tired old places needing a remodel and a makeover and others were two year old failures, like so many restaurants. Most new restaurant businesses fail and it was convenient to zero in on some that were closing anyway to apply the minimum wage argument to. It’s important to point out that some of these restaurants are simply downsizing to a proper size building while others duplicate a second nearby location or are yielding to another new restaurant. In reality, the wage increase will affect all Seattle restaurants together and some menu price adjustments will occur. A good restaurant will survive. The weak ones will fail. It’s the regular order of things, anyway. As soon as one leaves, another appears until the right food, menu and service finds its clientèle. This isn’t a crisis, by any means.
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dblhelixman says
What a lot of people do not realize is that we restaurant owners (restaurateurs – NO N) are required to pay social security and medicare taxes ON 100% OF SERVERS’ TIPS, even though we did not pay the servers. At the end of the year, the amount of social security and medicare taxes we have paid in excess of the federal minimum wage can be claimed as a credit against our federal income tax liability. With the minimum wage almost tripling, it means we will be paying 300% of the social security and medicare taxes we paid before and I think that greatly reducing or eliminating this tax credit is what the IRS was really after. Sometimes this credit can be 10, 20 or 30 thousand dollars a year. With the new minimum wage at $15 it will take 2/3 of this credit away, which restaurant owners use to subsidize their frequently paltry income for hours worked.
As far as the IRS goes, 100% of tips have always been taxable and not reporting documented 18-20% service charges or auto gratuities which are on credit card and banking statements is not something that other restaurant owners I know do not do – we ALWAYS report these. The difference is instead of us having to pay social security and medicare taxes on the minimum wage (let’s say 5.85 as the prior minimum wage) and getting that tip tax credit, now we will be forced to pay social security and medicare taxes on the prevailing minimum wage (in Seattle’s case 15.00). So, this will only affect servers who do not report all their credit card tips (and it’s pretty hard not to report tips document by credit card receipts). Once again government regulation steps in to screw the little guy. It really frosts me that people like Trump, who declared over 37 million dollars in income in 2012 with items expensed such as anal bleaching (disgusting) and not only did he not pay any taxes – he got a 7 million dollar + refund. This is the problem with the tax system in this country – all kinds of tax free financial instruments, passive partnerships, etc. can be used by the very wealthy because they don’t have to live paycheck to paycheck and can invest excess income in such a way as to either eliminate or reduce taxes below those paid by people close to the poverty line.
So, everyone feels sorry for the servers, but in reality they should have been reporting those tips all along and who is getting screwed big time is the restaurant owner or operator. From 1996 forward we used that tip tax credit to pay a large portion of our federal taxes and thank God we are out of the restaurant business because if we were not this would have driven us out. We had servers that made $200 on a crappy night and $300-$400 on a really good night, in tips, and we paid SUTA, FUTA, S.S, Medicare, etc. on EVERY NICKEL THEY EARNED. The IRS has put restaurant owners in a position that their employees make more than the owners do and the employees do not have over a million dollars invested in a business and pay personal property taxes, property taxes, thousands of dollars in licensing fees, over $10,000 in insurance, rent/mortage (ours with property taxes were $80,400 a year), utility bills that are 50% higher in rates than residential customers (unless you are a franchise of a big chain then municipal corporations throw themselves at you – at the expense of the mom and pop operations that pay for EVERYTHING), water and sewage rates that are almost 10x those of residential customers, not to mention cost of goods sold, maintenance, marketing and promotion, etc. The government is gutting the small independant operator and all those purveyors who cater to the mom and pop shops and contributing to the obesity of America by the very anti-competitive nature of what it is doing to small businesses throughout this country. They are encouraging big corporate chains that buy everything from a single source conglomerate that may offer GMO foods exclusively, animal flesh from factory farms that practice unimaginable cruelty, and engineered foods that do not contain the normal nutritional value of fresh, organically grown produce, per Codex Alimentarius.
Small businesses are the engines that drive this economy and the idiots in local, city, state and federal “government” are either deliberately destroying small businesses or are just plain stupid or a combination. A parasite that kills its host is not very smart. A government that destroys its country is by definition a traitor. And a government that derives its powers from being a privately held corporation and operating under statutory code which is a hybrid of UCC (Uniform Commercial Code) and considers its citizens “enemies of the state,” “useless eaters,” and corporate assets is fraudulent, a traitor to its people and at least a dozen other unlawful things. It is time for American small business and flesh and blood beings who consider themselve Americans to say “ENOUGH,” and mean it.
Michelle says
I work in a cardiac Cath Lab.. we save lives every single day perform CPR perform operations with cardiac surgeons on a daily basis. And you’re trying to tell me you deserve $15 an hour for flipping hamburgers. Bullshit ..Get a degree …losers
Chris Harrington says
Please…The unions were always about a fair days work for a fair days wage. Not now.. It’s about half the work for twice the pay and you know it.
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J.T. Smith says
But I thought all businesses no matter the type or size can afford an infinite labor expense?
What went wrong?
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James Johnson says
I bet the guy who wrote this wants to take it all back and those restaurants who closed shop early…What a bunch of fools. They listened to these republican propaganda and actually CLOSED their businesses BEFORE the wage hike! More money in circulation means more money not less. Economics must not have been his strong suit either. I wonder if we can get an update on this and see how it played out.
tensor says
From the official study the city commissioned from the University of Washington:
“We do not find compelling evidence that the minimum wage has caused significant
increases in business failure rates. Moreover, if there has been any increase in business closings caused by the Minimum Wage Ordinance, it has been more than offset by an increase in business openings.”
Although Shift has quoted approvingly from other parts of that same study, they somehow didn’t quite that finding.
James Johnson says
Thanks for your response. It more than confirms the theory of you pay more everyone wins. And one comment was trying to use Henry Ford as showing that American car companies cared. The point was that only Ford raised wages during an economic downward trend. After that it was business as usual that killed Detroit.
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Jen says
As an owner of a small family run septic business I have to say the author of this article is spot on. It is challenging to raise prices because people will not pay them but you have to get your cost covered to pay for the additional wages. We higher people near minimum wage and as we train and they become more qualified their wages reflect it. We pay between $12 and $15, ($15 near the 3 year mark), per hour depending on experience and training. If we had to pay $15 per hour the people who earned that now feel like they need a pay raise or they feel like they are at minimum wage again. Please note that it is usually $3 more per hour than the paid wage in the books for a business such as: LNI and other charges. I am very tired of already barely making ends meet, and having customers complain about already low prices. No, we do not have jets we go and fly off in, BuckyBadger. We don’t even get a weekend vacation once a year. As owners we do not even make the average yearly income. I think the only people who should be able to comment on this current reality are those who have owned a business that has employees. Not to be disrespectful to those who have opinions. It is just very hard to understand the cost of a business if you have not experienced the burdens of a business.
Adelaide McAllister says
I think it’s just BS. It’s greed. You can’t tell me that paying someone $15/hour which in Seattle, IS NOT a living wage by the way, will close down all these restaurants. The cost of living in Seattle has just ruined the city. A one bdrm apt. that is over 30 miles OUTSIDE the city is $1500 a month. I’m not over-exaggerating either. I looked from Marysville to Auburn and they are all that cost. The greed of the techies has destroyed the city. Completely destroyed the entire Puget Sound…
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Bruce L. Johnson says
Over a year since this article was first written, the sky has not fallen. The dire predictions have not come to pass. It’s not a big deal to pay the dishwasher $15/hour in Seattle.
pjberg says
First of all, Restaurant owners are not mega millionaires, they are our next door neighbors doing what they love, they’re great at it and it gives us a ‘flavor’ to our neighborhoods, a connecting place. Small business owners who have the courage to open up shop in heavily regulated Seattle, walk a thin line between profitability and failure every single day where the employee gets paid and often times the owner works for free at times. How to cope with over a 25% increase in your labor costs has owners helping each other cope. Tipping has been incorporated into the cost of your food item and gone to help cover such costs. Now think of how this hurts the server. You were making minimum wage $9.57/hr with tips which you EARNED by working hard which pushed you into the middle class wages depending on where you worked and how many hours you received. Now you’re making $15/hr, you hours have been cut and there is no incentive to work harder as you won’t make more than that anyway. Now you have to work 2 jobs and longer hours just to make close to what you were making before. It’s the math folks and you can’t just raise your prices, that’s a myth because the consumer has the choice to not pay it and stay home. Going out to eat is a luxury most will cut back on and a mandated increase in minimum wage hurts everyone especially those that are low producers and they will never be hired for any entry level job. It hurts poor less fortunate people by slamming the door on their opportunities for any kind of work.
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garry lafferty says
That the way cookie crumbles pay better wages .if small business can’t cut it tough luck . That how GOP want it. There for rich not small business
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{3}HERPES
{4}DIABETES
(5}HERPERTITIS B
(6}HPV..
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Richard Vela says
my name is Richard Vela and am from ,USA I was heartbroken because i had very small penis, not nice to satisfy a woman, i had so many relationship called off because of my situation, i have used so many product which i found online but none could offer me the help i searched for. i saw some few comments about this specialist called Dr JUDE and decided to email him on his email i saw on the internet,( [email protected]) so I decided to give his herbal product a try. i emailed him and he got back to me, he gave me some comforting words with his herbal pills for Penis Enlargement, Within 3 week of it, i began to feel the enlargement of my penis, ” and now it just 4 weeks of using his products my penis is about 9 inches longer, and i had to settle out with my Ex girlfriend alicia, i was surprised when she said that she is satisfied with my sex and i have got a large penis.
Am so happy, thanks Dr JUDE
I also lea’learnt that Dr JUDE also help with
Breast Enlargement
Hips and Bums Enlargement etc
If you are in any situation with a little Penis, weak ejaculation, small breast_hips_bums do get to DR JUDE now for help on ([email protected]) or you contact him on this website (drjudesolutionhome.wixsite.com/dr-jude)
GeckoCA says
Just found out that when you call into your Fancy restaurant in Seattle, LA or SF etc. etc. for reservation or to place an order you are not calling into the restaurant. You end up talking to someone like my brother in law in a call center in Ajo Arizona. With pipped in restaurant noise to make you feel as if you are talking to the restaurant. This done to by pass high min wage laws in those states. He get $7.25 and handles a few Dozen restaurants per shift. So think about it a person lost their job at $15. But someone 1000 of miles away that has never been to the restaurant is taking orders and getting paid $7.25 an Hr. You ever wonder why your orders or reservations are so messed up? you have a person that has no clue about the establishment other than a call in script. he fills out and forwards to computers at the restaurant in Seattle, SF, LA etc. etc..
tensor says
“Just found out that when you call into your Fancy restaurant in Seattle, LA or SF etc. …”
Who calls restaurants anymore? We here in Seattle use Open Table to make our reservations.
I hope your brother in law gets a new line of work soon.
doctor uziku says
I want to thank Dr uziku for the Herbal HIV
medicine he gave to me and my
daughter, i was suffering from HIV when i gave birth
to my daughter and
that was how my daughter got the sickness indirect
from me, but to God be
the glory that i am heal with the herbal medicine that
Dr uziku gave to me
when i emailed him. i want to use this medium to tell
everyone that the
solution to our sickness has come,so i will like you
to contact this great
healer on his email address, doctoruzikuspel
[email protected] with him all
your pains will be gone,i am really happy today that
i and my daughter are
cured of HIV, we are now Negative after the use of
his Herb medicine, my
specialist doctor confirm it. once more i say a big
thank to you Dr uziku
for healing hands upon my life and my daughter, i
say may God continue to
bless you abundantly and give you more power to
keep helping those that
needs your help in their lives. email him now he is
waiting to receive you.
[email protected] or call
him +2348105602898
I want to thank Dr uziku for the Herbal HIV
medicine he gave to me and my
daughter, i was suffering from HIV when i gave birth
to my daughter and
that was how my daughter got the sickness indirect
from me, but to God be
the glory that i am heal with the herbal medicine that
Dr uziku gave to me
when i emailed him. i want to use this medium to tell
everyone that the
solution to our sickness has come,so i will like you
to contact this great
healer on his email address, doctoruzikuspel
[email protected] with him all
your pains will be gone,i am really happy today that
i and my daughter are
cured of HIV, we are now Negative after the use of
his Herb medicine, my
specialist doctor confirm it. once more i say a big
thank to you Dr uziku
for healing hands upon my life and my daughter, i
say may God continue to
bless you abundantly and give you more power to
keep helping those that
needs your help in their lives. email him now he is
waiting to receive you.
[email protected] or call
him +2348105602898
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bella james says
I want the world to know a great man ,that is well know as Dr lazizi.he has the perfect solution to relationship issuse and marriage problems.the main reason why i went to Dr lazizi, was for solution on how i can get my husband back because in recent times,i have read some testimonies on the internet which some people has written about lazizilovespell. and i was so pleased and i decide to seek for assistance from him on his email.(lazizilovespell @gmail.com)which he did a perfect job by casting a spell on my husband which made him to come back to me and beg,for forgiveness. I will not stop publishing his name on the net because of the good work he is doing.i will drop his contact for the usefulness of those that needs his help. Contact his via email [email protected] or whatsapp at +2349077148171
Wilson Norman says
Hello everyone am Wilson Norman from CANADA , i am here to give my testimony about a spell caster called OJABU, I was heartbroken because i had very small penis, not nice enough to satisfy a woman, i have been in so many relationship, but cut off because of my situation, i have used so many product which doctors prescribe for me, but none could offer me the help i searched for. i saw some few comments on the internet about this specialist called Dr, OJABU and decided to email him on his email i saw on the internet,([email protected]) so I decided to give his herbal product a try. i emailed him and he got back to me, he gave me some comforting words with his herbal pills for Penis Enlargement, Within 3 week of it, i began to feel the enlargement of my penis, ” and now it just 4 weeks of using his products my penis is about 9 inches longer, and i had to settle out with my Ex girlfriend Jane, i was surprised when she said that she is satisfied with my sex and i have got a large penis. Am so happy, thanks to Dr OJABU, I also learn that Dr OJABU also help with Breast Enlargement Hips and Bums Enlargement etc.. If you are in any situation with a little Penis, weak ejaculation, small breast_hips_bums,if you need his help you can contact him on his via Email:[email protected] or you can call or WhatsApp him on +2349065488196.,.
Wilson Norman says
Hello everyone am Wilson Norman from CANADA , i am here to give my testimony about a spell caster called OJABU, I was heartbroken because i had very small penis, not nice enough to satisfy a woman, i have been in so many relationship, but cut off because of my situation, i have used so many product which doctors prescribe for me, but none could offer me the help i searched for. i saw some few comments on the internet about this specialist called Dr, OJABU and decided to email him on his email i saw on the internet,([email protected]) so I decided to give his herbal product a try. i emailed him and he got back to me, he gave me some comforting words with his herbal pills for Penis Enlargement, Within 3 week of it, i began to feel the enlargement of my penis, ” and now it just 4 weeks of using his products my penis is about 9 inches longer, and i had to settle out with my Ex girlfriend Jane, i was surprised when she said that she is satisfied with my sex and i have got a large penis. Am so happy, thanks to Dr OJABU, I also learn that Dr OJABU also help with Breast Enlargement Hips and Bums Enlargement etc.. If you are in any situation with a little Penis, weak ejaculation, small breast_hips_bums,if you need his help you can contact him on his via Email:[email protected] or you can call or WhatsApp him on +2348074876448
stella maris says
The Great Dr.lucky herbal medicine is a good or perfect cure remedy for HIV Virus, I was diagnose of HIV for almost 5 years, everyday i am always on research looking for a perfect way to get rid of this terrible disease as i always knew that what we need for our health is right here on earth though the scientist say there is know cure for this disease,on my search I saw some different testimony on how Dr. lucky has been able to cure HIV with is herbal medicine. I decided to contact this man, I contacted him and he guided me on how to purchase for the medicine. I asked him for solutions and he started the remedies for my health. Thank God, now everything is fine, I’m cured by Dr.lucky herbal medicine, I’m very grateful to Dr. lucky, reach him now on ( [email protected] or check his website http://homeofnaturalremedy.wixsite.com/naturalremedy also available on +2349050606649.
stella maris says
The Great Dr.lucky herbal medicine is a good or perfect cure remedy for HIV Virus, I was diagnose of HIV for almost 5 years, everyday i am always on research looking for a perfect way to get rid of this terrible disease as i always knew that what we need for our health is right here on earth though the scientist say there is know cure for this disease,on my search I saw some different testimony on how Dr. lucky has been able to cure HIV with is herbal medicine. I decided to contact this man, I contacted him and he guided me on how to purchase for the medicine. I asked him for solutions and he started the remedies for my health. Thank God, now everything is fine, I’m cured by Dr.lucky herbal medicine, I’m very grateful to Dr. lucky, reach him now on ( [email protected] or check his website http://homeofnaturalremedy.wixsite.com/naturalremedy also available on +2349050606649………..
stella maris says
The Great Dr.lucky herbal medicine is a good or perfect cure remedy for HIV Virus, I was diagnose of HIV for almost 5 years, everyday i am always on research looking for a perfect way to get rid of this terrible disease as i always knew that what we need for our health is right here on earth though the scientist say there is know cure for this disease,on my search I saw some different testimony on how Dr. lucky has been able to cure HIV with is herbal medicine. I decided to contact this man, I contacted him and he guided me on how to purchase for the medicine. I asked him for solutions and he started the remedies for my health. Thank God, now everything is fine, I’m cured by Dr.lucky herbal medicine, I’m very grateful to Dr. lucky, reach him now on ( [email protected] or check his website http://homeofnaturalremedy.wixsite.com/naturalremedy also available on +2349050606649,,,,,,,.
patriotkat says
let them all close- they are hiring illegals and not using e verify
Johnson Adam says
Hello every one out there, My name is Johnson Adams am here to testify of the wonderful work Dr James has done for me with is herbal medicine, in the past years i have being going through hard times in any relationship am into, because of the small size of my penis which was not big enough to satisfy a woman, so which always end up in series of breakup in my relationship with women,because of this i have tried so many drugs to enlarge my penis but did not work out, then i decided to search online for solution to my problem and than came across so many testimony on how Dr James have helped them find solution to their problems,so i contacted him on his email and told him about my small penis and ejaculation issue, he told me not to worry that he will help me be a real man again, i did not believe he can help me but i gave him a try,he told me what to do and then send me his herbal cream and medicine which i used and it worked for me,now am a happy man. He can also cure diabetes,H.I.V and any kind of sickness you have. you can contact him on his email on ([email protected]). This will be the end of your sexual problems and other problems…….
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Carlos Annan says
Am Sherri from Texas. i just want to share my experience with everyone. I have being hearing about this blank ATM card for a while and i never really paid any interest to it because of my doubts. Until one day i discovered a hacking guy called Donard. he is really good at what he is doing. Back to the point, I inquired about The Blank ATM Card. If it works or even Exist. They told me Yes and that its a card programmed for random money withdraws without being noticed and can also be used for free online purchases of any kind. This was shocking and i still had my doubts. Then i gave it a try and asked for the card and agreed to their terms and conditions. Hoping and praying it was not a scam. 3 days later i received my card and tried with the closest ATM machine close to me, It worked like magic. I was able to withdraw up to $5000 daily. This was unbelievable and the happiest day of my life. So far i have being able to withdraw up to $30000 in one week without any stress of being caught. I don’t know why i am posting this here, i just felt this might help those of us in need of financial stability. blank Atm has really change my life. If you want to contact them, Here is the email address [email protected]. And I believe they will also Change your Life. email: [email protected]
DrMangle Mangle says
Prime Indian hospital
Are you in debt? Do you need to raise cash for health care costs or paying debts or in a state of financial breakdown? Wait! Consider selling your kidney as an Option. If you wish to sell your kidney today. Message us immediately.A kidney is bought for a maximum amount of $100,000.00US Dollars.The National foundation is currently buying healthy kidney.My name is Dr. Mangle, am a Nephrologist in the kidney National hospital.Our Hospital is specialized in Kidney Surgery and we also deal with buying andtransplantation of kidneys with a living an corresponding donor. We are located in Indian, Canada, UK,Turkey, USA, Malaysia, South Africa etc. If you are interested in selling or buying kidney’s please don’t hesitate to contact us via Email : ([email protected])
Waiting for your responds….
Arik Courier says
My name is Anna lucas and i just want to share my experience with everyone. I have being hearing about this blank ATM card for a while and i never really paid any interest to it because of my doubts. Until one day i discovered a hacking guy called Donard. he is really good at what he is doing. Back to the point, I inquired about The Blank ATM Card. If it works or even Exist. They told me Yes and that its a card programmed for random money withdraws without being noticed and can also be used for free online purchases of any kind. This was shocking and i still had my doubts. Then i gave it a try and asked for the card and agreed to their terms and conditions. Hoping and praying it was not a scam. 3 days later i received my card and tried with the closest ATM machine close to me, It worked like magic. I was able to withdraw up to $3000 daily. This was unbelievable and the happiest day of my life. So far i have being able to withdraw up to $28000 without any stress of being caught. I don’t know why i am posting this here, i just felt this might help those of us in need of financial stability. blank Atm has really change my life. If you want to contact them, Here is the email address [email protected] And I believe they will also Change your Life,,. email: [email protected]
Amy james says
MY Joy is back to me after a very long time which i an my ex separated since i was alone my life change,every thing about me change a friend of mine gave me an email address and told me that this was the email address she contacted when she was in the same problem so i contacted the email i got a reply he ask me to send him my number so i did he was a man call PRIEST ADE he is a spell caster he caster a spell for me and told me that within two day that my ex we be back for good within that two days my ex was back, i and my ex just got married. few week back, you can contact him at [email protected] view his website at https://ancientspiritspell.wixsite.com/ancientspiritspell once again thank you PRIEST ADE.
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Rob C says
I feel reluctant to post in this Thread as it seems many of the Comments are not helpful but arguing, with the exception of those offering to sell you a Miracle Cure for some disease.
Each side has costs.
When you’re an adult you’re going to have to pay for Rent, Food, and Utilities; generally that is done by working (honestly).
So the Employee MUST make that much. In an expensive City they must earn more, regardless of what they do.
If the Employee earns what they pay out then next year they are ahead by zero.
Same for someone who wants to start a Business, the above costs plus the cost of the Business.
So who should pay, the Employees, the Business, or the Customer.
If the Employee must cover the cost where do they get the money from.
If the Business must cover the cost where do they get the money from.
If the Customer must cover the cost where do they get the money from.
If the Customer worked somewhere they would have money, they could give that to the Business who in turn could give it to the Employee.
Should it work the opposite way, should the Employee pay the Business and then the Business pay the Customer.
Seems like the Business is in the middle. Should they put up a sign that says that “The Customer and Employee is always Correct” would that attract both Customers and Employees.
Maybe the Customer should say that the Business is always correct, as are the Employees.
Perhaps the Employee must say that the Business and Customer is always correct.
How does any of that make sense.
If you are not able to be a Customer then I guess you either need to be an Employee or Business Owner.
If you are not able to be a Employee then I guess you either need to be a Customer or a Business Owner.
If you are not able to be a Business Owner then I guess you either need to be an Employee or a Customer.
The Customer doesn’t want to pay too much, nor does the Business Owner, the Employee does not want to earn too little.
If the Customer thinks that they can do it for less then there’s a Business Opportunity for them. Alternatively they can go somewhere else with better prices or better Service.
If the Employee thinks that they can earn more then they either need to ask if that’s possible where they work now, or work elsewhere. If they don’t buy food they will be weak or ill, if they don’t pay their Rent they’ll be evicted.
If the Business Owner thinks that they can pay less for everything or charge more then that’s what they must do – will they ask the Employee and Customer first or afterwards.
Being a Customer comes about from having a real or perceived need (do you need to eat, or get a Haircut, buy a Car or a Home – maybe, maybe not).
Being an Employee comes from being born and working for a living – a _fate_ shared by both Customer and Employer, tough to get out of that one.
Opening a Business isn’t forced upon people, if anything you’re forcing the other Businesses to beat you or join you.
Not much point in opening a Rice Field in the middle of a large City and competing with Imports from a Country with low costs.
As a Customer you could buy your freshly grow Rice downtown, straight from the field – how much will it cost.
As an Employee you could go pick that Rice, or work next door at the place selling imported Rice. What is easier, more rewarding; keeping in mind that you must pay for Rent and Food (perhaps you’ll get an Employee Discount on Rice).
It is up to the Customer where they shop, the Employee where they work and the Business Owner what type of Business they start.
There’s a minimum for each: Fair purchasing for the Customer, Living for the Employee, and worthwhile Profit for the Business.
The Business can either be of the type that makes enough to pay for Employees or the Owner can work alone.
The Customer can buy fresh, quickly or slowly and not so fresh for lower cost.
The Employee can earn enough where they work, work elsewhere or move to another City.
If the City empties of Employees then all the Customers will need to be rich or travel from elsewhere to visit the Business.
If the Customer could simply do it themselves (cut their own hair or cook their own food) then there would be no need to be a Customer.
It seems that the one who chooses what type of Business to run and how much to charge and spend is the one who needs to plan their Investment the most carefully.
Somethings gonna break, someone’s gonna give, who will fold first. The answer seems obvious, thus it’s their responsibility or their loss.
Pretty simple.
The variety of work I do happens to bring in a minimum of a couple of thousand a day, otherwise there’s less than a days work (and I can leave early).
IF the work is especially profitable and everything is working correctly there’s a potential for over 10K per day, but that’s less likely.
If the Employer won’t pay 30% then the other 70% of the money doesn’t come in. The Employer has costs but so do I. Do they want their money or do I.
Best not type anymore, as your no doubt tired of reading this much; am I mistaken, there’s plenty more to read below.
donna says
am here to testify of how i got my loan from Mrs Ingrid {[email protected]} after i applied Two times from various loan lenders who claimed to be lenders right in this forum,i thought their lending where real and i applied but they never gave me loan. I was in need of an urgent loan to start a business and i applied from various loan lenders who promised to help but they never gave me the loan.Until a friend of mine introduce me to Mrs Ingrid kloet the C.E.O of INGRID Loan Company who promised to help me with a loan of my desire and he really did as he promised without any form of delay, I never thought there are still reliable loan lenders until i met Mrs Ingrid, who really helped me with my loan and changed my life for better. I dont know if you are in need of an urgent loan, free feel to contact Ingrid loan company on email{ [email protected]} for help
monica moore says
This is a life transformed testimony. i feel so happy shearing with everyone who will be in need of financial help for business or family issues which was done for me. Since August 25th 2016, i have been financially frustrated due to the fact that i lost my job, until i was help by Mr Evans the hacker with a blank ATM card. i am so full of joy shearing this post to everyone out there. i got my blank ATM card with the daily withdraw of $5000 daily which i am to make use of it for 7 months with every day withdraw of $5000 in any ATM machine, This is a chance for anyone out there to take this very important and give a try just the way i did and i am so happy today financially. i have been able to clear all my outstanding bills, Thank you Mr Evans for what you did to change my life, i am forever grateful. if you are interested in contacting Mr Evans for blank ATM card contact email: [email protected]
Dawn Fucci says
I would say to others who considering setting up in business or in need of an urgent funding – for any reason @ 2% rate to contact JBF via address below;
[email protected]
Go for it. Don’t be deterred if you don’t have any luck with the banks there are funder – out there like JBF who will lend, even if you are not in the best position.
James Carl says
JCLF for the past few months has climbed up the charts as one of the incredible online lending firms. Our funding system is guaranteed for positive results with a good 3% interest rate and an A+ rating in financing. if you need any financial help don’t hesitate to contact us through phone 267-405-5404
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Derek Dn says
With the level of technological advancement in the present age, almost everything can now be done with a click of a mouse. Find out if your husband or wife is cheating on you, find out who they talk to when you are not there, hack any mobile phone (call log, text message, whatsapp etc), hack email, educational portal, website, database, increase your credit rating, clear criminal records and many more. You can also protect yourself from hack attacks.You can pretty much get anything you need done with Reputable Hacker. Contact: randyblair at contractor Dot net
Howard Russell says
Hello, I just receive my loan of $85,000 from Mr. Donald Mark, after I was let than by other lenders, Mr. Donald have really put a big smile on my face, now I can take good care of my business and others personal needs, you can contact him with his email via: ([email protected]) contact him now for your loan he is a legit loan lender
kelvin smith says
Good Day,
Are you in need of financial assistance? Have you thought of obtaining a loan? Probably you have been turned down by your local banks in quest of getting a loan. Search no further, we are currently offering long and short term loans to the public at large. We can help you with a loan at a very low interest rate of 2%.Email us Now [email protected]
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Are you self Employed, do you have Low Income On NOA,we have the IDEAL Mortgage solution for your needs,We can get you Private & Construction Mortgage Even if you’re in Discharged / Undischarged Bankruptcy or Consumer Proposal,first Time Home Buyers,new Immigrants,Mortgage Renewals & Refinancing,We work with over 50 lenders including Trust Companies, Credit Unions and Private Lenders.Contact us today for a free consultation on [email protected]
Henlen Williams says
With so much in my heart i am here to express myself, on how priest azuka saved my marriage from divorce. Myself and my husband were having some misunderstanding and it was tearing our marriage apart to the extend my husband was seeking for a divorce. So i have no option than to go to the internet to seek for solution to my problem it was there i came across priest azuka details and about how he has helped a lot of people by restoring there relationship. I contact him and in less than 48 hours my husband cancelled the divorce papers. Now myself and my husband live together in peace and harmony all thanks to priest azuka for saving my marriage from breaking up. priest azuka contact information are via email: [email protected]…you can also skype with him on hangout
Hogan Mary Ann says
HOW I GOT MY LOAN FROM NEIL HOWARD LOAN COMPANY LTD.
My name is HOGAN MARY ANN. I am a U.S citizen. I want to use this medium to express my overwhelming happiness to everyone of the wonderful opportunity that the Neil Howard Loan Company has done in my life. I have tried so many times to apply for loan but was’t successful instead i get scammed. The total money that i was scammed of was $50,000, i was actually looking for a loan of $150,000 On this faithful day when i came across this company called NEIL HOWARD LOAN COMPANY where i was told that i will receive the loan from. They took me through the loan processes with an interest rate of 3% and they granted me a loan of of $150,000 to start up my business and solve other domestic issues. At first i thought it was one of the numerous internet scam then i decided to give it a trial on the 28th of March 2017 but to my greatest surprise, on the 30th of March 2017, i received an alert from my bank that the sum of $150,000 has been deposited into my account. It was like a dream come true but i thank God that at last i was able to get my loan from NEIL HOWARD LOAN COMPANY. Everything there works like a clock. Check it out by contacting Mr NEIL HOWARD on this
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Andy Maku says
Are you a man or woman between the age of 18 years to 70 years and you are interested in selling your kidney for money or to safe life. This is the right place for you because with Apollo Hospital you can achieve your dreams and be active. Write to us for Free on [email protected] or Call +918546997762. Also on WHATSAPP.
Andy Maku says
Greeting from Apollo Hospital. As we have a lot of patients who are here for kidney transplant, and we shall offer you ($450,000,00) for your Kidney. Our hospital is specialized in Kidney Surgery/transplant and other organ treatment, we also deal with buying and transplantation of kidneys with a living and healthy donor. If you are interested in selling your kidney, contact us now on this email id: [email protected] or Call +918546997762.Thanks and God Bless.
Andy Maku says
Hello.
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